Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum
Other Stuff => Other Topics => Topic started by: G._Hoffman on August 25, 2011, 03:54:13 pm
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Feds raid Gibson. (http://www.wkrn.com/story/15325684/feds-raid-gibson-guitar-corp-in-nashville#.TlaNkihmjls.facebook)
They raided both the Nashville and the Memphis factories. No word yet on exactly WHY, but it probably has to do with the same Lacey Act issues they had two years ago. Last time, it was over Madagascar ebony, and I've heard a rumor from a believable source that the feds have found emails from the last time implying Gibson was aware the wood they had was illegal.
Gabriel
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I have under good authority to proclaim that no Larches were harmed during the raid.
on a more sober note check a few of these links on the above topic of "illegal wood"
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html?mod=googlenews_wsj (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_logging_in_Madagascar. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_logging_in_Madagascar.)
In '99 I was doing a lot of scroll saw work, and getting pretty great at it too boot. I started messing around with doing inlay and intarsia and had a great idea when I had to get rid the old upright that had been in my grandparents barn since my mother was a child. I harvested the Ivory off the keys.
I had made about a dozen Crosses and attached little "scrolls" on the top inscribed INRI.
The shop owner was VERY impressed and asked how I aged the Corian to look like ivory.
It took him less than 10 minutes to round up every piece and get the incinerator lit.
I swear it took him 6 months to trust me bringing in so much as a hunk of pine 2x4 without his approval!
Ray
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Feds are raiding Gibson because of "illegal wood" !? :w2: Our tax dollars at work.
I will trust that perhaps there is some reason and logic behind making wood illegal?
Yes, of course there is - this is a highly endangered species, which was sold by a criminal cartel which has thrown out the democratic government of a very poor and embattled nation. Add to that the fact this wood is on the CITES treaty, of which the United States is a signatory, and it is pretty damn clear why this wood is and should be illegal to trade. Are you trying to suggest that the government shouldn't be enforcing the laws?
Gabriel
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Like dealing with "Blood Diamonds"..... Gotta be careful. Unfortunately for Gibson the stuff probably, went through so many intermediaries that Gibson's buyer was not likely aware of the illegal nature of that timber.
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Gabriel,
Your post was appropriate and in keeping with the forum's theme of guitars, amps, music etc.......
You make absolutely beautiful creations out of wood & so I know wood is important to you. And I remember that you bicycle and some of that motivation is from a "green" philosophy. I respect your integrity in living out what you say. And I enjoy and appreciate your posts and contribution to the forum. You've generously shared your knowledge giving answers to some questions I've posted.
And I am grateful to that.
My posted reply inappropriately made light of something that was important to you and probably many of the forum members. My post was out of line for that reason. And my response had a political viewpoint edge to it & the Hoffman forum isn't the place for that either. So it was a poor choice on both accounts.
Where you were appropriate in your post, my reply wasn't. I am genuinely sorry and apologize. I respect you and did a poor job of honoring something you were sharing.
I meant no disrespect & sometimes my warped humor is out of place.
I value what we share in our love of woods, music, guitars and amps & certainly prefer to enjoy what we have in common than accent what might possibly be differing political viewpoints.
With respect, Tubenit
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Read between the lines here. I'd rather have the DOJ go after Drugs and Illegal invaders but we are getting a bit political and I really like this forum because of its refraining from that!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html)
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Where you were appropriate in your post, my reply wasn't. I am genuinely sorry and apologize. I respect you and did a poor job of honoring something you were sharing.
Your apology is accepted, but not required. I LIKE debate - that's why I'm on the internet! The issue with deforestation - particularly in Madagascar, where the political situation is truly disastrous - is very time critical.
I don't actually like CITES - I think it would make much more sense to create a limited but lucrative market for these materials to encourage the local conservation of a economic resource - but since it is all we have, it needs to be enforced or it will be completely ineffective. The fact is, most of these materials are not being sold. For instance, most of the Brazilian rosewood that comes down these days is destroyed by slash and burn practices to create farm land to raise cattle for McDonalds and such like. If those same farmers could make as much money by selling one or two Brazilian rosewood logs a year, the market would help to conserve the entire Brazilian rainforest. Same for elephant ivory, or many other materials. Madagascar is different, because their "government" is a criminal enterprise to begin with, and the only real resource they have to exploit is their forests. And they aren't trying to create a stable workable economy for their citizens. They are trying to pad their Swiss and Cayman bank accounts.
Gabriel
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most of the Brazilian rosewood that comes down these days is destroyed by slash and burn practices to create farm land to raise cattle
I love beautiful wood. And they've been doing that for decades and it's heartbreaking. You've made some important comments about this issue. The slash and burn is unnecessary & a waste of valuable resources.
With respect, Tubenit
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> had to get rid the old upright that had been in my grandparents barn since my mother was a child. I harvested the Ivory off the keys.
That ivory was perfectly legal to possess. There's exemptions for ivory harvested before harvesting and trafficking became illegal. Otherwise a lot of antique art and most older pianos would be criminal for no good reason.
The problem is documentation. When dead elephants are stuck to an old piano (all pianos can be dated close-enough) there a strong presumption the ivory is as old as the piano. Yes, ivory can be damaged and does get replaced. Piano techs hoard ivory from unsalvageable pianos for this purpose. If clearly connected with an old piano repair operation, nobody gets in trouble. (Or is that next?)
Yes, it would be a problem when you cut-up keyslips into crosses. There is no easy way to prove the age of the ivory. Your story that you had an old piano backed by the fact that the crosses are typical keyslip thickness might or might not prevail.
There is "new" ivory. From time to time countries are allowed to sell some, strictly monitored (supposedly). You better have strong paperwork to show your "new ivory" is legit. This mostly goes to large operations, not a guy with a scrollsaw.
There is also Mammoth ivory, quite legal, but rare and costly. (Altho for a time after 1800, mammoth from Russia was cheaper than elephant from africa/asia, better trade-route.) And Walrus, but US walrus can only be sold after being handicrafted.
And Corian and polystyrene and tagua. None of these will fool an old-time music-shop owner who once tinkled the ivories.
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... I LIKE debate - that's why I'm on the internet! The issue with deforestation - particularly in Madagascar, where the political situation is truly disastrous - is very time critical.
Sadly, it is a shame that Madagascar is in such shambles, and so nearly powerless to do anything. Debate can be a healthy thing when done right. Unfortunately most of the time it doesn't get done right and gets too heated and spiteful.
The fact is, most of these materials are not being sold. For instance, most of the Brazilian rosewood that comes down these days is destroyed by slash and burn practices to create farm land to raise cattle for McDonalds and such like. If those same farmers could make as much money by selling one or two Brazilian rosewood logs a year, the market would help to conserve the entire Brazilian rainforest.
I hate to see that wood be wasted like that, but yet I don't want cartels to make the money from it. I would almost like to see something that could make that wood legal (I don't know if it is or isn't) but yet I can already see problems with abuse if it were so.
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> had to get rid the old upright that had been in my grandparents barn since my mother was a child. I harvested the Ivory off the keys.
That ivory was perfectly legal to possess. There's exemptions for ivory harvested before harvesting and trafficking became illegal. Otherwise a lot of antique art and most older pianos would be criminal for no good reason.
The problem is documentation. When dead elephants are stuck to an old piano (all pianos can be dated close-enough) there a strong presumption the ivory is as old as the piano. Yes, ivory can be damaged and does get replaced. Piano techs hoard ivory from unsalvageable pianos for this purpose. If clearly connected with an old piano repair operation, nobody gets in trouble. (Or is that next?)
Yes, it would be a problem when you cut-up keyslips into crosses. There is no easy way to prove the age of the ivory. Your story that you had an old piano backed by the fact that the crosses are typical keyslip thickness might or might not prevail.
The actual law doesn't say anything of the sort. Now, if it were ever taken to the Supreme Court and if they were ever to give an opinion on the matter, they would probably agree with you, but for right now there is NO PAPERWORK that can show you have legal reprocessed. It just doesn't exist. This is the single most annoying part of the CITES and Lacey Act is that they have no provisions for materials and manufactured products which have grandfather exemptions. They SHOULD be there, and certainly if it was legal when you bought it, they can't go after you for owning something. But the actual mechanisms for proving you are within the law do not currently exist. This is a VERY big issue among guitar collectors and builders. Big enough that at the Heldsburg Guitar Festival two weeks ago, they brought in a lawyer who knows this stuff to give a talk to all the luthiers. There is paper work available for you to claim all your materials are not covered by CITES and the Lacey Act (i.e., non-protected species), but there is nothing for materials that are exempt for grandfather clauses and such.
Gabriel
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Yes, of course there is - this is a highly endangered species, which was sold by a criminal cartel which has thrown out the democratic government of a very poor and embattled nation. Add to that the fact this wood is on the CITES treaty, of which the United States is a signatory, and it is pretty damn clear why this wood is and should be illegal to trade.
I've read the affidavit & it appears this has NOTHING to do with the sale of illegally harvested wood. See below:
http://ampgarage.com/forum/files/gibson__affidavit_in_support_of_sw_128.pdf (http://ampgarage.com/forum/files/gibson__affidavit_in_support_of_sw_128.pdf)
O.K., here's a brief summary of the Gibson situation.AFAIK India has for many years officially ruled that fingerboards (in their blank form) are legal to export, and that official Clarification is something that can't be argued by the U.S. government or anyone else..This ruling is nothing new, since India has allowed many millions of fingerboards to be exported for decades with no problem. There are also other factors involved:
1) The U.S. has absolutely no laws prohibiting the use of Indian (or Madagascar!) rosewood and ebony as such, only general laws that require no tribal, state, national or international laws have been violated.
2) None of this has anything at all to do with overharvesting, illegal logging, or any other environmental issues. Veneers, guitars or anything else made of these same Indian woods would have been completely legal.
3) The supposed violations named in Special Agent Rayfield's warrant affidavit concern his private interpretation of Indian law about semi-finished raw materials or component parts. Lacey doesn't allow the U.S. to disagree or argue about another country's regulations, only to enforce their compliance (which in the matter of India were being complied with according to their own written document).
4) Lacey is what's called a "fact-based" as opposed to a "document-based" statute. In other words, simply possessing legitimate-looking paperwork won't protect anyone from confiscation, fines or imprisonment if indeed laws really were broken. It's the same legal principle that has always applied in U.S. mining law, that it's not how technically accurate the filed paperwork description of a claim's boundaries are but how it's actually marked out and posted on the ground.
Several complicating and confusing glitches were made on the paperwork from LMII's Indian ebony shipment, but what counts is whether or not any actual regulations were violated. They certainly don't seem to have been (in the case of India, at least), but it's up to the courts and not us to decide guilt or innocence. Hopefully, they'll toss this one out no matter how foolish it makes Special Agent Rayfield and the USFWS appear.
The Madagascar wood raid of 09 remains problematic since it does involve endangered trees, logging in a national forest, and a questionable state of political unrest in the country at the time the wood was exported with questions about the government's validity as a legitimately recognized power.
See The Difference!!
Just an FYI. With respect, Tubenit
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It appears that it is OK to export/import "fingerboards" (veneers) that do not exceed 6mm thick. However, the shipment was listed as fingerboards/veneers and was 10mm thick.
So this raid is about 4mm difference in thickness of wood.
that stuff is in there, but what most struck me were the paragraphs about gibson allegedly intentionally tried to fool custom by mislabeling shipments and coding them to match the false label. i think that's the heart of the issues. it's also much harder to make fun of that allegation. it's much easier to say "this is stupid, are we really talking about a few tenths of an inch?!" that's part of the case, but it seems to be that the real matter is criminal and serious because gibson appears to have intentionally mislabeled shipments and then coded them to match the false labels in order to fools customs. how is that not serious? again, if this was an honest mistake, i think it would be playing out differently, but it looks like gibson intentionally engaged in criminal behavior.
Here are some problems as I see it with Rayfields report he misquotes the Indian regs by inserting a critical word "finished" that's not found in them; the wood was correctly exported as being HS 9209.92.00 according to Indian law as millions of boards have been for decades with no objections from either Indian or U.S. authorities; but due to a paperwork mistake by a neophyte broker, Rayfield (understandably) was led to equate the shipment as HS 4407 in response to the erroneous HS 4408.. Once again Here's a statement from Natalie Swango at LMII (the importer and correct consignee):
“The exporter entered the correct code for his country's export according to Indian customs. I incorrectly listed Gibson as the consignee on the Lacey paperwork...the material was destined for them, but at this time LMI owns and is (was, ?) warehousing it. The broker made a mistake and listed the material as veneers, although all other paperwork correctly listed it as fingerboards (they have remedied this with an oops letter). The warehouse employee incorrectly informed the feds as to the ownership (although they bill me for the storage fees). The officers incorrectly came to the conclusion that we are smuggling wood.”
“The broker for LMI listed the "entry" as veneers <6mm despite all other paperwork listing it as sawn wood and fingerboards in excess of 6mm. The broker sent a letter explaining the error and attempted to contact FWS to correct the entry, but they refused to speak to him. A copy of the letter was sent to LMI as well as FWS.”
He also in several places injects interpretations of Indian law, when all that Lacey insists on is conformance to another country's regulations. He's trying to redefine Indian regs in a way that the Indian government doesn't agree with and didn't intend...This whole thing could have been cleared up by a phone call..
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They were "advised" to move to Madagascar if they wanted to stay in business.
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I actually know the folks at LMII pretty well, and am more than ready to believe Natalie's explanation of events. My father - who was a lawyer prior to his retirement, and who has been following this closer than I have - tells me the law doesn't actually say the feds have to interpret Indian law in the same way as the Indians, though that would likely get over-thrown in an appeal, and could end up as a lengthy legal proceeding. It seems likely this was a pressure tactic trying to get more information relating to the earlier raid, where it appears that Gibson WAS breaking some laws, but it will be a while before we know for sure, if we ever do.
Gabriel
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If we want more manufacturing jobs here rather than overseas, we should treat the manufacturers better. Just my 2 pennies.
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If we want more manufacturing jobs here rather than overseas, we should treat the manufacturers better. Just my 2 pennies.
Maybe, but manufacturers should also obey the law.
Gabriel
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Some more coverage here: http://axvault.com/ (http://axvault.com/)
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In Hawaii, the only place I know of that has Koa wood, it's pretty well protected. Some is available though.....don't have a clue as to how long a Koa tree takes to grow to maturity.
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In Hawaii, the only place I know of that has Koa wood, it's pretty well protected. Some is available though.....don't have a clue as to how long a Koa tree takes to grow to maturity.
Koa can not be harvested from live trees. You can only harvest trees that dies naturally.
Gabriel
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>>Maybe, but manufacturers should also obey the law.
>>Gabriel
Whose law?
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Is there really a difference between the wood that is identified as ‘unfinished, sawn wood’ that is 10 mm thick vs ‘fingerboard’ 6mm thick wood other than it has had the planing done in some sweat shop in Mumbai?
The law, while dated, is certainly good intentioned but, because it is globally unenforceable to get the real bad guys, will really only effect those who can and will be regulated by commercial correctness. The ebony, rosewood, koa will just go elsewhere—like the diamonds. Eventually, too, the economy. It doesn’t make it right, it just makes it so.
Gabriel, I can appreciate your concern for this issue. However in today’s world, Gibson’s situation smells more like politics than real concern. Regards
dennis
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Gabriel, I can appreciate your concern for this issue. However in today’s world, Gibson’s situation smells more like politics than real concern. Regards
The most recent Gibson raid smells to me like a law enforcement tactic, not politics. There is no question that the wood which was seized in 2009 was illegally transported and imported. If they can prove Gibson knew about it, Gibson has done something which is very serious, and they should pay the price. At the time of the 2009 raid, they got a number of emails and computers. My understanding, unconfirmed but through a reliable source, is that they found some emails suggesting Gibson knew the wood in that instance (Madagascar Rosewood) was illegally imported. In this new raid, they took wood, but they also took computers. If I were to state a guess, I think the FWS is trying to get more information about the Madagascar rosewood, and are trying to pressure Gibson into giving them that information. Kind of underhanded, but pretty common for law enforcement.
I'm pretty confident the recent raid was legal wood, because it was sold to Gibson by Luthier's Mercantile, which is a company I am very familiar with, and knowing the degree of paper work that comes with their materials, I KNOW they are not providing anything that doesn't comply with the appropriate laws. My contact at LMI has sent around an email that makes it pretty clear the FWS can't possibly be going after this wood because it was actually illegal - that would take an interpretation of the law that simply isn't going to fly in any court in this country (particularly as the case would be tried in Tennessee!) So, I think their main objective was the computers, and the wood was just a way to put pressure on the execs at Gibson.
Gabriel
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The most recent Gibson raid smells to me like a law enforcement tactic, not politics.
It sounds like lawyers using law enforcement for politics...a shakedown. This article is quite enlightening:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1 (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1)
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The most recent Gibson raid smells to me like a law enforcement tactic, not politics.
It sounds like lawyers using law enforcement for politics...a shakedown. This article is quite enlightening:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1 (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1)
Nah. I know the Tea Party has grabbed on to this, but the truth is that if Gibson knew that the original shipment was illegal, then they were breaking the law. FWS is trying to prove that, which is perfectly reasonable and their job.
Also, don't give anything Henry says too much weight. He has a long history of spin. I very much doubt that they were treating anyone at Gibson like "drug suspects." Certainly, I haven't seen any pictures of guys on the ground with zip ties on their wrists.
Gabriel
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@ simonallaway:
You've posted a link to an unabashedly right wing/conservative news source. This site is supposed to be non-political. I just think it would be nice if this site stayed very strictly non-political as it's such a great place to learn about tube amps.
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It's also a place where we have talked about things impacting the music industry - from tube sourcing, suppliers, and manufacturing (the good and bad), amp manufacturing and sourcing, and yes even guitar building. We agree and disagree and go on.
If you are miffed by the "slant", just google the USA Today article - can't get much more in the opposite direction. They pretty much state the same facts. As far as Henry's spin - as an orchid grower, I can tell you his description of the take-down of the orchid importer was true to fact. The 66 yr old retired guy with a flower hobby spent almost 2 yrs in jail due to his supplier failing to file one page of the appropriate stack of paperwork on his end (sound familiar?). The flowers were perfectly legal, but that didn't matter. Great detail and concern was published in an orchid magazine that I get - but hey, you can dismiss that because you know us flower freaks, we are all unabashedly right wing. Their house was completely trashed. It was also the culmination of a 6 MONTH INVESTIGATION! Good thing they had all that extra manpower since they ran out of violent criminals to put behind bars. Interesting to note that CF Martin has the identical path of importation and material through LMII but are very vocal supporters of the current admin. Have not heard about their raid. Poor Henry has been a vocal opponent since 2009 residing in a RTW State. Hmm... What do you think Dr. Watson? If there was substance to the "Investigation" there would be charges. Gibson 2009, no charges. Gibson 2011, no charges. Yet they still have $$$$ of "evidence" that they will not return. They have caused over a million dollars loss due to the shutdown and confiscation of product. Gibson is, and has been, spending thousands in legal representation. For what? Give me a break.
Jim
Jim
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This site is supposed to be non-political. I just think it would be nice if this site stayed very strictly non-political as it's such a great place to learn about tube amps.
I don't recall seeing any rules about politics. In fact, I don't recall seeing any rules. This is the "Other Topics" forum. People post all kinds of squirrely things here. Sometimes they relate to guitar amps. Sometimes not. I'm not concerned about political content. I've been here for 5 years and have never seen a political shootout. There's a high level of maturity and mutual respect among the Hoffman forum members and that makes for a mostly self-moderating forum. Amp builders have more than one interest. Doug realized that and I'm glad he set up the different forums. We do try to keep the different forums on topic, but this "Other Topics" forum is kinda wide open.
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You've posted a link to an unabashedly right wing/conservative news source. This site is supposed to be non-political. I just think it would be nice if this site stayed very strictly non-political as it's such a great place to learn about tube amps.
I don't care where the story came from; I just thought it was an interesting view point of a story that a fair amount of us care about. My politics don't neatly fit into right/left buckets - life isn't like that, despite what the media would have us believe.
Our hobby/addiction is affected by all kinds of influence...our transformers cost so much in part due to copper prices...our tubes may well be priced the way they are because of the end of the cold war 20 years ago.
We don't exist in a vacuum...hahahah vacuum! get it? :laugh:
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Is'nt Gibson a non union shop? :think1: Big pro union guy in office. Looks a little funny to me, but who knows. Have to wait and see what shakes out.
Brad
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We talked to LMI this morning, and their view is the actual news gatherers at Fox are doing a fine job, but the editors and on-air talent is adding a lot of bulls#!t that has nothing to do with reality. Which is par for the course, of course, and ends up meaning that the stories going out on air should be treated with extreme caution.
On the other hand, the folks at FWS HAVE informed them that any Indian rosewood over 6mm is illegal, never mind that the government of Indian disagrees. In the even, this only effects fingerboards and bridge blanks, and does not effect backs and sides. But I am quite certain that, given a single court hearing, the FWS interpretation will be rejected on site. Certainly, NAMM is going to be sending a bunch of members out to lobby congress.
The big problem with all this is that Indian is the country with the best record of sustainable forestry anywhere in the world, and they do an exceptional job of ensuring that as much labor as possible is kept in country. Which is to say, they are doing things are right as can be, and FWS interpretation of Indian law is penalizing them for doing things right. India is a perfect example of how the logging industry SHOULD work (creating a market for the project, thus encouraging the natives to maintain and preserve the forests), but it is important to note that it works so well there because there are a great number of regulations in place to maintain the system. One thing it is NOT is a unregulated "free" market, so it isn't much of a Tea Party ideal to be sure.
But as for this costing Gibson "millions of dollars" in business, I very much doubt it. They don't make THAT many guitars in a day, not at that factory, and it isn't like FWS took everything they had there. They were back at work the next day, and if they had played by the rules with the Madagascar rosewood in 2009 (which was, without doubt, illegal wood), they wouldn't be having this problem. Buying any wood from Madagascar is illegal these days, but even if it wasn't it would still be immoral. They don't have a government, they have a criminal conspiracy.
Gabriel
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@ sluckey
I stand corrected.
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Juszkiewicz discussed the raid on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show Monday night. He said he was unaware of what the federal government wanted, but said their operations would be costly for his company.
“Well, total — you know, this second raid and all-inclusive — my personal guess is somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million to $3 million,” Juszkiewicz said.
Jim
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Juszkiewicz discussed the raid on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show Monday night. He said he was unaware of what the federal government wanted, but said their operations would be costly for his company.
“Well, total — you know, this second raid and all-inclusive — my personal guess is somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million to $3 million,” Juszkiewicz said.
Jim
Like I said, don't take his word for it.
Gabriel
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I don't recall seeing any rules about politics. In fact, I don't recall seeing any rules.
I don't remember the exact time frame but it was around the time of Katrina when a well respected forum member made some comments about "judgement" on our country.
To the best of my memory, Doug responded with a request to keep topics on amps & away from politics or religion. However, that may have been prior to the "Other Topics" forum being created. So perhaps some respectful measure of politics is appropriate?
On the Amp Garage, someone posted about the Gibson raid and the results were 13 pages of responses. The majority of which were "anti" the raid and negative towards the current government. And then it turned into a angry flame war between some people that somewhat presented as far right vs. far left. As far as I can remember, I have never seen 13 pages of any thread on TAG? My impression is that people got pretty energized if not reactive around this issue.
http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15774 (http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15774)
With respect, Tubenit
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Juszkiewicz discussed the raid on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show Monday night. He said he was unaware of what the federal government wanted, but said their operations would be costly for his company.
As a previous employee at Gibson/Epiphone, I can't say I have anything positive to say about Henry or Dave. I have seen some shady and cold actions taken by both of them.
I would be entirely unsurprised if we found out that there was proof that Gibson did something (now or in 2009, or before) that was illegal or immoral, that management was aware of it, and did it anyway until they got caught.
Is'nt Gibson a non union shop? :think1: Big pro union guy in office. Looks a little funny to me, but who knows. Have to wait and see what shakes out.
Tennessee is a "right to work" state, so you could say the entire state is non-union. There are unions to be sure (the musician's union, SAG and AFTRA come to mind immediately), but my point is the state's legal environment doesn't lend itself to establishing unions.
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However, that may have been prior to the "Other Topics" forum being created. So perhaps some respectful measure of politics is appropriate?
With respect, Tubenit
Yeah, I mean 'Nit and I are worlds apart - I like Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc. He likes Barry Manilow, Abba, disco, etc. He thinks Wang Chung is one of the most influential artists in the last 50 years, I'm thinking along the lines of Jimi. I like Strats, he likes....well, Teles. That doesn't mean we can't have a "respectful" conversation - even if we are at opposite ends of the spectrum....at least most of the time.
In cases such as this, we have an interest due to the industry we are somewhat involved in. What's more, we have a unique group of individuals who know the players and have first hand perspectives. You can't get that anywhere else. I think we are fortunate. As Sluckey said, we are pretty much self moderating due to the mutual respect. If anyone gets out of hand, your IP address will be given to every male enhancement advertiser on the net.
Jim
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I like Strats, he likes....well, Teles. That doesn't mean we can't have a "respectful" conversation - even if we are at opposite ends of the spectrum....at least most of the time.
Oh dear .......... the strat thing again, huh? :m8 :m19 :BangHead: :sad2:
Jim, you've been so brutally unkind that now you owe me a Shiner Bock and an order of onion rings.
Well, .......... thank goodness for opposite ends of the spectrum and parallel universes. :help: :l2: :thumbsup:
With psuedo sort respect, 'Nit
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If anyone gets out of hand, your IP address will be given to every male enhancement advertiser on the net.
Pfft. Already happened, apparently. :laugh:
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So, basically, exactly what I thought was happening. The Madagascar ebony was illegal, Gibson knew it, and the second raid was about the computers where they found the email proving Gibson knew it was illegal.
GIBSON SETTLES. (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/August/12-enrd-976.html)
Gabriel
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For a company of that size they got off pretty easy.
Well, I am "assuming" they're a multi-million/year in revenues, but could be wrong.
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Gibson sales in 2005: About $500 million (Gibson is a private company).
yes, they got off easy. lost about 3/4 mil. in that little fiasco. wanna bet les pauls go up?
--DL
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After reading through this thread, I'm still not really sure what is going on, but I do have an overwhelming feeling that it is somehow the tea party's fault....although I don't know why.
Dave
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After reading through this thread, I'm still not really sure what is going on, but I do have an overwhelming feeling that it is somehow the tea party's fault....although I don't know why.
:laugh:
Brad :l2:
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After reading through this thread, I'm still not really sure what is going on, but I do have an overwhelming feeling that it is somehow the tea party's fault....although I don't know why.
Dave
Naw, it's Henry Jerkowitcz's fault. He thought the rules didn't apply to him, bought wood from a bunch of thugs who are gang raping their nation's resources, and found out he was wrong.
The Tea Party SHOULD feel they have some egg on their face, right now, since it turns out their golden boy was lying through his teeth, but I'd bet they won't see it that way.
Gabriel
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Part 1;
Let me say first, that I have a great deal of respect for you Gabriel and I know you have access to info on this that I don't because of your ties to the instrument makers guilds? And I'll say it again Henry very well might be guilty.
From the DOJ letter (in blue) you posted;
“As a result of this investigation and criminal enforcement agreement, Gibson has acknowledged that it failed to act on information that the Madagascar ebony it was purchasing may have violated laws intended to limit over harvesting and conserve valuable wood species from Madagascar, a country which has been severely impacted by deforestation,” said Assistant Attorney General Moreno.
"Failed to act on information?" In the end that's what the DOJ is saying Gibson did wrong? That's what/all the DOJ can prove?
It says "may have" not _did_ violate laws. What does that mean? May have? (Might have?) Did they or not?
Not very strong words/phasing in the end from the DOJ if they had such a strong case against Gibson.
Participants on the trip, including the Gibson employee, were told that a law passed in 2006 in Madagascar banned the harvest of ebony and the export of any ebony products that were not in finished form. They were further told by trip organizers that instrument parts, such as fingerboard blanks, would be considered unfinished and therefore illegal to export under the 2006 law.
So what does that mean? If the blanks were fully sanded and had a finish coat on them, it would be legal to buy them?
In 2008, an employee of Gibson participated in a trip to Madagascar, sponsored by a non-profit organization. Participants on the trip, including the Gibson employee, were told that a law passed in 2006 in Madagascar banned the harvest of ebony and the export of any ebony products that were not in finished form. They were further told by trip organizers that instrument parts, such as fingerboard blanks, would be considered unfinished and therefore illegal to export under the 2006 law. Participants also visited the facility of the exporter in Madagascar, from which Gibson’s supplier sourced its Madagascar ebony, and were informed that the wood at the facility was under seizure at that time and could not be moved.
Ok, who is this non-profit organization that the DOJ cites as "informing" the Gibson employee and the other "participants"? (1. "were told that a law passed in 2006", 2. "They were further told by trip organizers" and 3'rd, "were informed".)
So is the DOJ saying because of this that Gibson broke the law? This is all the evidence they found in Gibsons computers? That's their proof?
The DOJ found that a Gibson employee was "told/informed ......" and went back to Gibson and told Gibson what he was "told/informed ......" by a non-profit organization? Yet the DOJ earlier in this same letter said only that Gibson "failed to act on information" and may have violated laws not did violate laws.
And wasn't that the same thing that was cited with the Indian Rosewood, it was unfinished? And the Indian government said it was legal, but our guys said it wasn't? Maybe the Indian government has something funny going on with them too? :dontknow:
Brad :w2:
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Part 2;
Naw, it's Henry Berkowitz fault. He thought the rules didn't apply to him, bought wood from a bunch of thugs who are gang raping their nation's resources, and found out he was wrong.
The Tea Party SHOULD feel they have some egg on their face, right now, since it turns out their golden boy was lying through his teeth, but I'd bet they won't see it that way.
Still not very clear to me what exactly the DOJ's conclusion proves or what the international law is on this and how and who gets to interpret it in an individual country? :think1:
Nor do I see the DOJ helping in this case by what their conclusion letter reads.
"since it turns out their golden boy was lying through his teeth"? Maybe I'm not reading or understanding the DOJ's letter right but I don't see where they proved this? All the letter Say's is "Gibson has acknowledged that it failed to act on information that the Madagascar ebony it was purchasing may have violated laws".
After all the time the DOJ has in their investigation they don't seem to have proven much at all. Sounds like to me the DOJ has got a little bit of egg on their face too and I see it as a little bit of "thugery" on the DOJ's part. Seems to me very heavy handed on the DOJ's side, to afterwards only come to their final conclusion that they present in their letter. I don't see how or why it was warranted and justified as to what they seized, how much they seized, why they've keep all of it and how they went about gathering the evidence, raid at gunpoint? :w2:
I also find the DOJ's letter awfully short for such a Long investigation.
So, they forced a back room deal with Henry because they couldn't prove what they alleged he did wrong. He gets off the hook and the DOJ Say's to the public, we got our man, so they look good. They slap him with a fine to look tough and look like they did their job and get to say "see we were right".
To me for the "Law" to work it has to be a 2 way street and it is when it's adhered to as defined by our constitution.The end does not justify the means and the law has to upheld on both sides. I'm not so sure that the DOJ did this in this case by the evidence they cite in their conclusion letter.
Sorry but the biggest thing I see at this point that the DOJ proved is that they have the "muscle" to give Gibson a deal they couldn't refuse. :w2:
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the same room when they swung the deal to hear what BOTH sides had to say. I bet it was rich. :laugh: (I'm not laughing because Henry got slapped on the wrist and let go or at the DOJ.)
Brad :think1:
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Thanks G. Hoffman.
I appreciate the info.
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OK, a plea deal. Over a technicality on the 'finishing' of the fretboard prior to export. Gibson--being a respected instrument maker--should suffer some public whipping because of their negligence. $300k is a light slap on the wrist but a slap on the wrist just the same.
As harsh as this may seem, the shoe should fit the other foot--what if we were to seize the DOJ computers and prosecute Fast & Furious? That one is pretty wrong as well. Plenty to gripe about...
Heh heh heh--who do you suppose ends up getting access to the $260,000 worth of seized Madagascar ebony boards? Thanks to all for respectful dialogue on sensitive topics. Regards
dennis
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I, for one, am waiting for the DOJ's ruling on the identical C.F.Martin raid. About the identical materials. Bought through the exact same importer. Oh wait! I guess I was mistaken - that never happened! And why is that???? If this was truly an issue with the DOJ, we WOULD be waiting on that ruling. Wasn't Martin just featured in the latest Obama "I've created billions of jobs" ad?
Gab, please take the blinders off.
I'm sorry, but this is such a blatant politically motivated action - it just makes me sick.
Jim
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I, for one, am waiting for the DOJ's ruling on the identical C.F.Martin raid. About the identical materials. Bought through the exact same importer. Oh wait! I guess I was mistaken - that never happened! And why is that???? If this was truly an issue with the DOJ, we WOULD be waiting on that ruling. Wasn't Martin just featured in the latest Obama "I've created billions of jobs" ad?
Gab, please take the blinders off.
I'm sorry, but this is such a blatant politically motivated action - it just makes me sick.
Jim
Sorry, but you are flat out wrong. I know more than a few of the players involved in both companies. All of the people involved at both of the US companies involved (Gibson and the importer of the Indian Rosewood seized - improperly, by any rational standard - in the second raid) are in agreement; the suggestions of politics were made up by Henry and his friends at Faux News. There is no truth to those allegations at all. Henry doesn't know much about guitars, but he does know marketing, and the whole "politically motivated" is definitely good for his marketing, but thing about how much BS is in most marketing campaigns...Same thing here.
The reason they haven't raided Martin is that Martin has always been scrupulous about sourcing their wood. They would NEVER have bought the wood Gibson bought. Totally different companies, totally different levels of corporate responsibility, and totally different cultures. C.F. Martin is a family owned company that is far less concerned with profit than with treating their customers and their employees with respect. They pay my shop five figures a year, every year, to do warranty repairs, and withing the last ten years we've done warranty work on guitars which were 70 years old (and yes, still owned by the original owner). When they went from nearly 100,000 guitars a year in the late seventies to only 3,000 guitars in the early eighties, they NEVER FIRED ONE EMPLOYEE. In recent years, they have fully modernized their factories to the point they are one of the most modern guitar factories in the world, and they have again done it without firing a single employee. They have been working, and working HARD, on good forest management for decades. They have a safe in the factory with a few sets of Brazilian Rosewood that they've had since the mid-sixties (perfectly legal stuff, by the way), and they sell it for an up-charge of $15,000, because when it's gone, they will never make another Brazilian guitar. Ever. They also have been buying and cutting their own wood for more than 100 years, and they know how to do it right. While they have started to buy wood from outside suppliers, they are very careful about who they buy from, and have the experience to do it right. (Their lead wood buyer has been in her job for over 25 years. Nice woman, and she knows her stuff.) Martin is one of the best companies on the planet, period, and they have always done everything right. If you want to know how to run a business right, all you have to do is ask yourself, what would Martin do? Seriously, they are that good. Gibson is, well, not.
I have a friend who has read some of the emails in question. He is very clear - Gibson bought wood they knew was illegal, that it was illegal at the time they bought it, and they did so with full knowledge they were breaking the law when they did it (not that it matters - ignorance of the law is not a defense, and never has been). As for the wood, unfortunately it will probably get burned. Yes, it is stupid, but that is what they do with illegal imports. I'm not sure about the Indian Rosewood, which by the laws of India is not illegal. There is probably still some legal haggling about that one, but when the Indian government is ready to give testimony it wasn't illegal wood, well, that SHOULD settle the matter.
But political or not (it's not), Gibson broke the law, now they get to pay for it. And anyone who believes in a well ordered society governed by laws which apply to everyone has to see that as being the correct resolution.
Gabriel
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Yeah, and I've got a friend who has seen the actual emails that proves, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Tubenit steals Strats from homeless musicians and burns them in his back yard to BBQ his neighbor's dogs.
You keep saying that this is an open and shut, black and white, guilty as sin - and here is the evidence, case. When in fact, it most certainly is not! You know as well as I, that if the department of thugs had ANY shred of evidence to prove that Henry or any of his people knew this and blatantly (as you say) broke the law - they would have every local SWAT team, FBI, and National Guard (along with every lame-stream media outlet), outside Henry's home with guns drawn and rifles sighted in. They would have shackled and paraded him around like an American POW in Vietnam in the '60's, and sung the chorus of the big bad pro-free market company picking on a defenseless war ravaged country to make millions of dollars for the money grubbing Henry to gold plate the entire interior of his home. Speaking of poster boy.... Unfortunately for them, that was NOT the case - because he is NOT in jail. Hell, the DOJ threw a retired 70 year old orchid hobby grower in jail for a paperwork error on the other side of the world he knew nothing about - for a single LEGAL flower! I GUARANTEE you that if they REALLY had a single crumb of evidence, Henry would be wearing orange behind bars - trying to make peace with his new boyfriend.
To Willabe's point: I'm sure the thugs told Henry they would keep him in court until he was broke and the company bankrupt. Or, here is the plea.
Funny how it was LMI that indicated Martin bought the very same items. And what of LMI? They were the conduit for the transactions. But hey, what do I know! Obviously CF Martin is a great company, and Gibson offended you in a past life. As far as Henry using this for marketing? I'm sure the overall demographics of musicians is very left leaning. He would certainly get more traction being a major contributor to the current admin. Hey! - just like C.F.Martin. Funny how that works.
Sorry, but this smells like a Tele solo at an Ozzfest.
Jim
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I'm 100% with you Jim....They just came out with E-mails implicating the DOJ in actual CRIMES. where is the outrage there...Fast and Furious, Allowing and encouraging the occupy movement to break laws,Dropping the charges on intimidating voters at the polls by Black Panthers...these are not maybe's ...THESE are facts,and there is plenty more ......where is the outrage....It's not some company importing wood that may be a fraction of an inch too thick...It's your Department of Justice and it is corrupt and really believes it is Above the law....It goes to the Top of the DOJ and it goes to the White house....and the POTUS lies on a daily basis ...where is the outrage...These are the dirtiest bastards you can imagine running the show and I'm sure going after Gibson is a vendetta, and If I find some work anytime soon I'm buying me a brand new Gibson..........
:m12
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Funny how it was LMI that indicated Martin bought the very same items. And what of LMI? They were the conduit for the transactions. But hey, what do I know! Obviously CF Martin is a great company, and Gibson offended you in a past life. As far as Henry using this for marketing? I'm sure the overall demographics of musicians is very left leaning. He would certainly get more traction being a major contributor to the current admin. Hey! - just like C.F.Martin. Funny how that works.
LMI had nothing to do with the Madagascar Rosewood, which is the wood which was illegal. I've said from the beginning, and still say, that the second raid, and in particular the seizing of the Indian Rosewood, was legal tactic, and what they really wanted was the computers which did, in fact, hold the evidence they were after. No, they shouldn't have seized the Indian Rosewood. I never said otherwise. But the POINT of the investigation was to prove Gibson bought Madagascar rosewood which was illegal. Which they did. It really is that simple. The political stuff is made up by a group of political extremists who think regulation is bad, never mind that following their political/economic POV for the last 32 years is EXACTLY why we have the economy we have right now, and the fact that they don't seem to actually believe in the most basic premise of Democracy (compromise).
Gabriel
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Oh boy, I knew it was coming. :l2: Please see every single post I made in the "Drones over US" thread to save my fingers from excessive typing. I've got some guitar playing to do.
Gabe, just because you keep repeating a statement over and over, does not make it true. I will quote exactly from one of the fav left leaning sources Media Matters (only if we can spin it). Damning information, even though they don't quite have every detail correct - not surprised.
"In 2008, Gibson, Martin, and Taylor officials [Guitar companies] toured Madagascar. Federal officials seized that wood from Gibson in 2009 and as per the 2008 Lacey Act amendments, need not charge Gibson with a crime. Gibson must prove the legality of the wood to secure its return. Gibson has been unable to do that. [After the November 2009 raid, Gibson stopped buying wood from Madagascar as did Martin and Taylor.] The 2011 seizure concerned Indian woods that would be legal but for the thickness. I believe that USFW is investigating because of suspicions due to 1) Gibson using the same wood supplier as it did for the Madagascar woods (LMI), 2) irregularities in the wood designations on the paperwork that could be due to innocent error or intentional attempt to deceive officials as to the thickness of the wood and 3) though Gibson is the ultimate purchaser, the paperwork lists the intermediary, LMI, which delivers the wood to a warehouse near the Nashville airport. Gibson retrieves a bit of the wood at a time when it needs it. This entire raid started with a whole list of mistakes made by the company called Luthier Mercantile International (LMI), which imported the East Indian Rosewood. Gibson's name wasn't anywhere on the paperwork or shipment of the wood when the feds targeted the shipment as problem - and then Luthier Mercantile's General Manager, Natalie Swango, pointed the finger at Gibson. Incidentally, Luthier Mercantile has since recanted, or said it made a mistake in naming Gibson on some import paperwork, but that's not getting any news. The government's not concerned with that, because the government's fixated on the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of India and an eighteen-year old tariff classifications ruling on East Indian Rosewood fretboards, and Gibson will take the fall."
The following information is based on the affidavit underlying the government’s search warrant, public statements made by Luthier Mercantile’s General Manager (Kim Swango), some from Henry, and filings in the ongoing civil litigation related to the 2009 seizure of Madagascar ebony and rosewood from Gibson (U.S. v Ebony Wood in Assorted Forms).
On June 27, 2011, a shipment of Indian ebony is stopped by Customs and Border Patrol (CBP) agents at the Dallas, Texas Port of Entry (the DFW airport). Luthier Mercantile International, a California company that specializes in providing wood to individuals and companies that build stringed instruments, is shown as the importer of record. The shipment is missing a Lacey Act declaration.
The U.S. Customs entry declaration form (CBP Form 3461) states that the crates contain “VENEER SHEET <=6MM” and lit the Harmonized Tariff Schedule Coe “4408.90.0195,” which matches the veneer description. From a luthier’s standpoint, this would be a standard import. The back and sides of East Indian rosewood acoustic guitars are made out of this material (Gibson’s factory in Bozeman, Montana, makes some East Indian rosewood acoustic guitars are made out of this type of veneer, including the J-45).
India’s Harmonized Tariff Schedule permits the export of HTS 4408 woods.
When the shipment, which is missing a Lacey Act declaration, are opened, there’s no veneer inside. The shipment contains sawn East Indian lumber in rough size and shape of guitar fretboards, all over 6mm thick. Since at least 1993, U.S. Customs Rulings have stated that East Indian rosewood rosewood fretboard blanks are to be imported as a 4407.99.96 item (not only has Gibson been a party to similar rulings, but these rulings have favored the guitar industry; by declaring the fretboards an unfinished item under HTS 4407, rather than a finished item under HTS 9209.92.00, importers haven’t had to pay any tariffs on a finished product, and makers haven’t had to include phrases like “assembled in the U.S. from Indian products” in the descriptions of their instruments).
India’s Harmonized Tariff Schedule specifically prohibits the export of 4407 items.
The mistake in description and HTS coding could easily have been innocent, but it remains that Luthier Mercantile described and labeled the shipment as something allowed under Indian law instead of the actual contents.
TO be continued.....
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In addition, customs import form (CBP Form 7501) for the shipment is odd and incomplete; the final consignee is shown as Theodore Nagel, GMBH of Hamburg, Germany, a German company that deals in the international trade of woods, but the shipment is marked for direct transport to a Red Arrow Delivery Service warehouse in Nashville, Tennessee.
Gibson’s name doesn’t appear anywhere on the paperwork.
A U.S. Fish and Wildlife Inspector named Kim Theurer is notified. From a cover letter in the U.S. v. Ebony Wood in Assorted Forms litigation, it appears that Theurer is working with an attorney in the Environmental Crimes Section, Environment and Natural Resources Division of the United States Department of Justice Criminal Division in Washington D.C., in an ongoing criminal investigation into the illegal import of regulated woods. Although Gibson may be a target in that investigation, Theodore Nagel almost certainly is a target based on other filings in U.S. v. Ebony Wood in Assorted Forms.
Theurer contacts Luthier Mercantile. LMI’s General Manager, Natalie Swango produces the Lacey Act paperwork that had been completed back on June 17, 2011, but never submitted, and and it lists Gibson as the final consignee. She tells WI Theurer that Gibson, not Theodore Nagel is the final consignee. (Swango has since said that she made a mistake on both the form and in her declaration to Theurer, as discussed below). The Lacey Act declaration also states that the product imported is “ebony fingerboards for guitars.”
CBP tracks Luthier Mercantile’s shipments.
On July 28, 2011, a CBP Agent observes another shipment of Indian rosewood and Indian ebony coming through Canada to Luthier Mercantile, the California company, to the same Red Arrow Delivery Service Warehouse in Nashville. A CBP agent interviews Nancy Alverson of Red Arrow and is given a copy of the import declaration, which states that Luthier Mercantile is the final consignee. However, Alverson tells the agent that the wood is being held in storage for Gibson Guitars. Alverson also gives the CBP agent an email from Natalie Swango of LMI stating that for import purposes, Gibson Guitars is the final consignee of the wood coming through Canada, not LMI.
At this point, the feds have LMI, importing wood from a German company that was involved in the illegal import of Madagascar ebony and rosewood to LMI in 2009 and that is apparently part of a criminal investigation. LMI has mislabeled the contents of a container. There’s been paperwork to import Indian rosewood and ebony through Dallas and Canada to a warehouse in Nashville, with documents showing parties other than Gibson Guitars as the final consignee, but with LMI sending emails and telling a federal agent that Gibson Guitars is the true final consignee.
It also appears that the wood has been imported under a HTS code that India does not allow to be exported.
The government raids Gibson and the Red Arrow Delivery Service and seizes the wood, computers, and a thumb drive.
TO be continued.....
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So now what....
First LMI’s Natalie Swango now says she was mistaken when she completed the Lacey Act paperwork, and that LMI was the final consignee instead of Gibson. She says she was mistaken when she told Theurer that Gibson was the final consignee, because LMI was the final consignee. LMI says that the wood was to be held and owned by LMI in Nashville until sold to Gibson. LMI has not addressed the email to Red Arrow Delivery Service.
Second, LMI says that not only did it make a mistake when it labeled the products as HTS 4408 items, but that any subsequent change to HTS 4407 items was a mistake. LMI has paperwork from India permitting export of the wood as a HTS 9209 item – part of a musical instrument, because unlike almost every other country, Indian doesn’t use the word “finished” in its description of HTS 9209 items.
AND although Henry is a VERY vocal opponent to the current admin, Juszkiewicz is a close friend of the Clintons. Back in the days when the Clinton White House was for sale, and you could rent the Lincoln Bedroom for a night. Juszkiewicz 'bought' the entire White House for Gibson's 100th Anniversary Celebration, where Bill and Hillary honored Gibson. He later became one of the early members and supporters of the Clinton Global Initiative, both through Gibson and through the Rainforest Alliance, a group he helped form. Juszkiewicz only resigned from the Board of Directors of the Rainforest Alliance after Gibson was charged with illegally importing Madagascar ebony in 2009, although he's still a member. What an EVIL man....
Sorry to let the facts get in the way of your political sidestep of the topic being discussed. But hey, if you got a friend that has seen an email, that certainly trumps the actual details. Oh, and the basic premise of our country is that of a Constitutional Republic. Always has been. The Founders were extremely knowledgeable about the issue of democracy and feared a democracy as much as a monarchy. Compromise and freedom to those on the left means you are free to do whatever I tell you - because I know better. Sorry, not in my DNA.
Peace.
Jim
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This is a quote from Natalie that Tubenit found, it's in reply #12.
“The exporter entered the correct code for his country's export according to Indian customs. I incorrectly listed Gibson as the consignee on the Lacey paperwork...the material was destined for them, but at this time LMI owns and is (was, ?) warehousing it. The broker made a mistake and listed the material as veneers, although all other paperwork correctly listed it as fingerboards (they have remedied this with an oops letter). The warehouse employee incorrectly informed the feds as to the ownership (although they bill me for the storage fees). The officers incorrectly came to the conclusion that we are smuggling wood.”
“The broker for LMI listed the "entry" as veneers <6mm despite all other paperwork listing it as sawn wood and fingerboards in excess of 6mm. The broker sent a letter explaining the error and attempted to contact FWS to correct the entry, but they refused to speak to him. A copy of the letter was sent to LMI as well as FWS.”
This last part is written by the guy who posted the quote;
Here are some problems as I see it with Rayfields report he misquotes the Indian regs by inserting a critical word "finished" that's not found in them.
He also in several places injects interpretations of Indian law, when all that Lacey insists on is conformance to another country's regulations. He's trying to redefine Indian regs in a way that the Indian government doesn't agree with and didn't intend... This whole thing could have been cleared up by a phone call..
This quote is from reply #11, same guy, I think?
The supposed violations named in Special Agent Rayfield's warrant affidavit concern his private interpretation of Indian law about semi-finished raw materials or component parts. Lacey doesn't allow the U.S. to disagree or argue about another country's regulations, only to enforce their compliance (which in the matter of India were being complied with according to their own written document).
I actually know the folks at LMII pretty well, and am more than ready to believe Natalie's explanation of events. My father - who was a lawyer prior to his retirement, and who has been following this closer than I have - tells me the law doesn't actually say the feds have to interpret Indian law in the same way as the Indians, though that would likely get over-thrown in an appeal, and could end up as a lengthy legal proceeding. It seems likely this was a pressure tactic trying to get more information relating to the earlier raid, where it appears that Gibson WAS breaking some laws, but it will be a while before we know for sure, if we ever do.
Gabriel
Still not very clear to me what exactly international law is on this or how and who gets to interpret it in an individual country? This seems to be a badly written reg/law that left a loop hole that the DOJ has used in this invetagation against Gibson. That's where the "thugery" comes in, :evil5: "sign the papers or...." :violent1:
You seem to be ok with this "pressure tactic" by the DOJ, because the end justifies the means?
LMI had nothing to do with the Madagascar Rosewood, which is the wood which was illegal. I've said from the beginning, and still say, that the second raid, and in particular the seizing of the Indian Rosewood, was legal tactic, and what they really wanted was the computers which did, in fact, hold the evidence they were after. No, they shouldn't have seized the Indian Rosewood. I never said otherwise. But the POINT of the investigation was to prove Gibson bought Madagascar rosewood which was illegal. Which they did.
Gabriel
1. So why didn't the DOJ give Gibson back the Indian wood?
2. How did the DOJ prove the Madagascar rosewood was illegal?
In their own words;
“As a result of this investigation and criminal enforcement agreement, Gibson has acknowledged that it failed to act on information that the Madagascar ebony it was purchasing may have violated laws intended to limit over harvesting and conserve valuable wood species from Madagascar, a country which has been severely impacted by deforestation,” said Assistant Attorney General Moreno.
The end in this investagation does not justify the means by which it was conducted.
Brad :w2:
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Well, at this point, there really isn't anything new to say. I DO know more about the subject, and the people, but you apparently would rather listen to a media that never really gets anything right, so I'm done.
I will say this, as soon as you say "the lefty leaning media," you lost my respect. The media leans VERY slightly to the left on social issues, and WAY to the right on fiscal issues. WAY, WAY to the right. They all buy into the "rich people create jobs" crap (probably because most of them are rather rich themselves), and you will NEVER hear a single one espouse anything like an actual liberal fiscal point of view. I live with a socialist, and believe me, her opinion's are NEVER in mainstream media.
Don't bother responding - I already know what you will say, and I won't be reading it anyway.
Gabriel
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They all buy into the "rich people create jobs" crap (probably because most of them are rather rich themselves)......Don't bother responding - I already know what you will say, and I won't be reading it anyway.
Gabriel
Well, since Gabriel is no longer here to answer (bye), I will ask the question of others who might be reading this & have the same (Gabriel's) opinion......So, who DOES create jobs???
I, for one, have NEVER been hired by a poor man, so I'd like to get some ideas of where the jobs come from(?)
Geezer
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I DO know more about the subject, and the people, but you apparently would rather listen to a media that never really gets anything right, so I'm done.
In my replies #'s 45, 46 and 57, where/what did I ever mention/quote anything that the media said? :dontknow:
So, who DOES create jobs???
I, for one, have NEVER been hired by a poor man, so I'd like to get some ideas of where the jobs come from(?)
I never have either.
Brad :think1:
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I live with a socialist, and believe me, her opinion's are NEVER in mainstream media.
I truly mean no unkindness in this ..........
Both my studies of philosophy, other cultures & history and life experience actually living in another country has led me to say the following:
It is one thing to live in the benefits of luxury and wealth and prosperity of the US and be a "socialist" where you have FREE speech and little to no fear of the government throwing one in jail for being respectfully outspoken ...................
VS. living in a true socialist country.
I would be interested in hearing from a socialist (who has actually lived in a socialist country & not just visited abroad) and know what country they believe we should emulate?
With respect, Tubenit
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Either way, are these raids the reason why Gibson is selling guitars with that horrible looking 'baked' maple for fingerboards?
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I live with a socialist, and believe me, her opinion's are NEVER in mainstream media.
I truly mean no unkindness in this ..........
Both my studies of philosophy, other cultures & history and life experience actually living in another country has led me to say the following:
It is one thing to live in the benefits of luxury and wealth and prosperity of the US and be a "socialist" where you have FREE speech and little to no fear of the government throwing one in jail for being respectfully outspoken ...................
VS. living in a true socialist country.
I would be interested in hearing from a socialist (who has actually lived in a socialist country & not just visited abroad) and know what country they believe we should emulate?
With respect, Tubenit
I had the privilege of helping a Romanian get his U.S. citizenship in the 1980s. He escaped Romania with false papers, but his backup plan was to swim a BIG river. He'd practiced swimming long distances for over a year. That was just for the backup plan. When he finally earned his citizenship, he was able to return to Romania and see his family for the first time in 8 years.
I can assure that this newly-minted American was all in favor of capitalism, not socialism. And he was programming Basic instead of using his PHD. Living in Cleveland!
Finally, anyone who thinks that MSNBC, NBC, ABC, or NPR are collectively fiscal conservatives is using a measuring stick I am not familiar with.
Respectfully,
Chip
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:bravo1:
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Liberals are not even liberal. They have destroyed the word. I have heard a WalMart shopper complain about other countries destroying natural resources while not even knowing the Chinese factories work 7 days a week, live at the factory and have to pay to live there. It is nothing but a feel good (read superior to you) response. However, it seems to be no problem with HUMAN RIGHTS. Those little Chinese (Communists remember) can work till they die as long as I can get a butt load of cheap crap that I really don't need anyway.
Yes, I have lived in an area bordering Socialism/Communism. To answer Geezers question, the government pays as they own everything. The world is not coming to an end and the sky is not falling. There is really a underlying power, force or whatever you wish to call it which controls the universe. It is lack of faith which causes people to believe they must do something, but doing something ALWAYS is in someone's elses backyard, not their own. This is not liberal. Also, if it weren't for liberals looking for something to complain about, there would be no Fox News.
I am a true liberal American. I do not believe I should (or have the right) to tell my neighbor how to live or what they should believe. It is their journey, not mine. I just cannot help but notice the Hippocratic political positions of people. Societies are formed by cultures of people. It is their culture which forms the morals. If they are different than you, why do you have the right to employee individuals in the US to insure they live like you want them to. Control freaks.
A true test of a real liberal. Someone comes up to you with a 69 Les Paul in pristine condition and wants $600 for. Do you buy it? For $500 more you can get a 59 Bassman. Do you buy it?
Defend our boarders, deliver my mail and leave me the hell alone. How can you really care where Gibson gets their wood if you shop at WalMart? Oh, I forgot. It is not human rights we are concerned with, it is trees. Who cares if a couple of china men die making your $3 laundry basket.
I remember a time when you bought your lawnmower from the hardware store because you knew the family who owned it and the people who worked there. It cost you a little more, but it was worth it because your neighbor could feed their family and house them on 1 income. We sure have progressed haven't we?
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Qualitatively speaking, the entire amount ebony and rosewood that end up as fretboards represents a drop in the protected species bucket. I have read—and I always try to subtract 80% of it as spin—the vast majority of this wood ends up going to sweat shops in Asia and ends up as furniture. It doesn’t make it right, it just makes it so.
I believe in the rule of law but when it comes to the DOJ and Gibson, it ain’t really about ‘the wood’ but about an agency that that deals in double standards. And, as Richie points out, the culpability of the other parties in this fiasco.
Ed, me thinks you may be more libertarian than liberal. America’s best traits is that of freedom of choice, liberty and taking responsibility for those choices. The true liberal is the one who wishes to redistribute the accountability.
Would I buy that genuine ’69 Les Paul for $600? Are you kiddin'? Yessir, because YOU offered to sell it for $600. (I think I would check the serial numbers though).
Meanwhile back at the bench….Regards
dennis
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So, who DOES create jobs???
I, for one, have NEVER been hired by a poor man, so I'd like to get some ideas of where the jobs come from(?)
I never have either.
Brad :think1:
I have been hired by plenty of poor people to do jobs.Most of the work I do is for middle class folks.
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Qualitatively speaking, the entire amount ebony and rosewood that end up as fretboards represents a drop in the protected species bucket. I have read—and I always try to subtract 80% of it as spin—the vast majority of this wood ends up going to sweat shops in Asia and ends up as furniture. It doesn’t make it right, it just makes it so.
I believe in the rule of law but when it comes to the DOJ and Gibson, it ain’t really about ‘the wood’ but about an agency that that deals in double standards. And, as Richie points out, the culpability of the other parties in this fiasco.
Ed, me thinks you may be more libertarian than liberal. America’s best traits is that of freedom of choice, liberty and taking responsibility for those choices. The true liberal is the one who wishes to redistribute the accountability.
Would I buy that genuine ’69 Les Paul for $600? Are you kiddin'? Yessir, because YOU offered to sell it for $600. (I think I would check the serial numbers though).
Meanwhile back at the bench….Regards
dennis
No, I am not really libertarian. I simply think folks should first start with their morals at home and should have the right to. Telling other countries how they should things is not my business, nor is telling you how you should live and believe is not either.
If offered a 69 Les Paul for $600, you know something is wrong. The reason I asked the question was more about philosophy. You see, I don't care if you would buy it. There is no way I would as the person is either a thief or ignorant. Either case, someone is getting ripped off.
Kids do not know the value of money. If a 5 year old offered you a $20 bill, would you take it? My point being is what is referred to a moral compass and this begins with me and ends with me, whereas others have the right to do as they want.
It is their land to harvest trees from. They will learn just as we did here in the US. We stripped land in the Midwest to the point where black cloud dust covered Washington DC. Lots of people suffered as a result, but we learned a great deal, so much where we now provide a great majority of the worlds food supply and Merle Haggard went to Bakersfield from Oklahoma.
Everything that looks bad is not always so. Gibson bought some fretboard wood and I can tell you where to get Cuban Cigars. Mexican cartels are killing and bringing meth by the truckload, but do not whatever you do purchase imports where there is suspected environmental damage, but it is ok to purchase Dog Food from China, where they eat dog.
Also, what I meant by Liberals changing the meaning of the word. If you have an old dictionary from the 30's and compared it to the contemporary definition, the are almost opposite.
It is strange, but the President of the Sierra Club and the West Virginia Coal Miners Union vote for the same people. Two completely different philosophy's and both think their interest will be taken care of, even though they have opposing interests.
We are in the middle of a very strange time.
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I truly mean no unkindness in this ..........
...[ ]...
I would be interested in hearing from a socialist (who has actually lived in a socialist country & not just visited abroad) and know what country they believe we should emulate?
With respect, Tubenit
Canada. :smiley:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Canada)
I see constitutional monarchy. I see parliament. I see federalism.
Show me where it is described as a "socialist country"?
I think Canada is truly a wonderful country. What do want the U.S. to emulate about Canada?
There are certainly aspects of socialism there as there is here in the United States. I would say it is a far stretch to call it a socialist country.
With respect, Tubenit
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Socialized medicine, for starters?
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Socialized medicine, for starters?
That is interesting. My french speaking coworker whom I have known for yrs is from Quebec and has voiced a different viewpoint on this subject living in the U.S.
I'd be interested in knowing what has your experience been with socialized medicine living in Canada that brings you to believe that the U.S. should emulate that?
with respect, Tubenit
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We all have different opinions. Just to be clear, does your French-speaking co-worker from Quebec think that Canadians do not have socialized medicine, or that this is not a specific example of socialism in Canada?
Regarding my experience with or understanding of socialized medicine, living in Canada, that brings me "to believe that the U.S. should emulate that", I didn't say that I believe that the U.S. should emulate the Canadian system. I'll post some info on my opinions in the next little while.
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I didn't say that I believe that the U.S. should emulate the Canadian system
Respectfully, perhaps you did not understand my original statement that you quoted? And perhaps I am misunderstanding your responses?
I would be interested in hearing from a socialist (who has actually lived in a socialist country & not just visited abroad) and know what country they believe we should emulate?
You quoted the above and answered Canada.
Of course, my coworker believes that Canada has socialized medicine. She would adamently deny that Canada is a socialist country while acknowledging that it exhibits some aspects of socialism just as the U.S. does (which I previously mentioned). And Canada has some individuals who are members of a democratic socialist party just as in the U.S.
Are you clear with what socialism (& it's variations) are? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism)
Canada is clearly a capitalist nation with free enterprise. It has some socialized services but it is NOT considered a socialist nation.
I have positive experiences with and feelings towards Canada. There are things about Canada that I would enjoy greatly but none of them have to do with socialism. I think parts of Canada and Nova Scotia would be a wonderful place to live & I've really enjoyed the Canadians when I've been up there.
With respect, Tubenit
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I lived for a couple of years in Canada. My neighbor John was from northern Ontario in what he called "Canada's version of Texas". He was a great guy and used to rib me a lot about American politics and medicine as a comodity (especially because I was a Texan).
He was an avid golfer and went on a short trip with a friend down to North Carolina to a course he had never golfed. At the ninth hole, he suffered a major heart attack. He was rushed to a nearby hospital and had to endure some of the most complex surgeries imaginable. When he got back home and was well enough, I went to see him and he told me that he would never again rib me about American medicine and he was convinced that if he had suffered that heart attack anywhere in Canada he would have died.
Poor old John is gone now RIP, cancer got him a couple of years ago, but that hospital in North Carolina gave him another 10 years of golfing and ribbing Texans.
I, myself, have had very negative experiences with Canadian medicine. I was having serious chest pains once, and went into a major hospital in Ontario. Without so much as even touching my body or donning a stethoscope, the doctor diagnosed me with irritable bowel syndrome, but only after insisting that even though I claimed to have no diarreah, that I was crapping my brains out. He wrote me a prescription which I wadded up and threw at him. The next day I drove down to New York and, after a battery of examinations, was diagnosed and treated for a hiatal hernia.
Canadian medicine, in my humble opinion, is very much like drive through fast food.
Other than the issues with Canadian medicine, I really enjoyed my time in Canada.
BTW Canada is not a socialist country. They do, however, have a lot more social programs than we are used to in the US.
Dave
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Hi Guys.
Still pondering it all but I thought I'd mention a couple of things:
Dave:
- Sorry you had very negative experiences with Canadian medicine. Clearly an indictment of the entire Canadian healthcare system. :rolleyes: Maybe the guy was just a dick? Where was it?
- Also, I think your friend was wrong - Canada's version of Texas is nowhere near Ontario - it's a place called Alberta. Really.
- Regarding his comments regarding the quality of surgery in Canada, rates of recovery and so forth, I'm no expert - I think I'll look for something less anecdotal before responding.
tubenit:
- Lots of private enterprise here in Canada. Not much free enterprise.
- Yes, there is a socialist party in Canada - the New Democratic Party. They are currently the "Official Opposition" party in the federal government in Ottawa, holdong 103 of 308 seats in Parliament, compared to the Conservatives, who hold a "majority government" with 166 of 308 seats. At a provincial (like a state) level, over the years, several governments have been at times led by New Democratic Party governments. Which is the American "democratic socialist party" to which you refer in your post?
- as far as who gets to define what constitutes a "socialist" country, I don't think I'll defer to the somewhat academic Wikipedia approach - I have less doctrinaire worldview. In my opinion Canada is "more socialist" than the US, but "less socialist" that Norway, Sweden and the other Nordic countries. Do you consider them socialist countries? My own understanding of socialism is a lot less complicated and is simply related to the level of government ownership / control / funding of services, such as a healthcare system, an educational system, and more. The word has no pejorative meaning for me. How about you?
- regarding your "interest in knowing what has your experience been with socialized medicine living in Canada that brings you to believe that the U.S. should emulate that?", I've had over seven direct family members who have all had a variety of medical treatments provided by the universal healthcare system in Canada, myself included. All of us had better luck than Dave with the physicians and hospitals that provided the services. The citizens of Canada paid for these services with our tax dollars. The invoiced cost for all of this to the people who received these services was $0.00. If this had taken place in the United States, in several of these cases, initial diagnosis and/or treatment would have resulted in the cancellation/abrogation of any health-care benefit programs/plans/insurance and the people in question would have been impoverished/bankrupted by the cost of paying for their treatment. I guess that means that my experience with socialized medicine has been ... good. How about you?
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I had heard that the Canadian system was very similar to the UK system. The fact the Benny Hill had a skit in just about every episode about the "merits" of the health "care" system should tell everyone something...
I have a Bosnian friend who escaped as her town was shelled and her friends killed. She was 13. Her father got them to the border and he was captured. At the time Clinton was bringing the refugees to the US. They came to St. Louis thinking their father was dead. In reality, he spent the next three years in 4 different prison camps. He was shot twice and beaten almost daily. When they arrived in St. Louis and were "processed", they were promised food stamps and Medicaid for 6 months. After that, there were on their own - sink or swim. Since nobody knew any English, she learned her ABC's the first night here. At age 15 she was interpreting for her family and others who had come here, in hospitals, for doctor appointments, and court rooms. Meanwhile, her father escaped and made his way to Germany and finally to the US. They all worked VERY hard to make a life for themselves and are proud Americans. The whole family and community is saddened and outraged at this President. She keeps saying over and over that we do not realize where he is taking us. Enough said.
Jim
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Hammertone,
Thanks for your thoughtful response! It is appreciated. Glad to know your experience with socialized medicine was a positive one. And it's good to know that your family and loved ones got the care that they needed.
I have been involved in the "health care" field for over 20 yrs.
The democratic socialist party is called just that. And there are variations of it. More of an organization than a "player" in the political system.
With respect, Tubenit
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Clearly an indictment of the entire Canadian healthcare system.
Nicely delivered.
Dave