Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum
Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: plexi50 on January 09, 2013, 11:01:23 pm
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Ahhhh! I dont know what to say so i wont say much. Simply unbelievable. I have it and i dont believe it so were even. Completely untouched and never resoldered any where. Tube chart and all. The tweed is gone. Who cares! Jensen C12N. Sounds wonderful. Bias is spot on. So quiet you cant tell it is on when it is. Pretty weird day.
The caps are dated 1958. The pots are dated 1959. The speaker im not sure of the code just yet but will be looking for the speaker data chart
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I won't wake you up because this must be a dream--a crate for a original 5E3!!! Could have a ball re-tweeding that. IMHO tweed is more forgiving than tolex except for matching up the stripes part. BTW-Congradulations! Platefire
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nice score.
--DL
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Congrats! Nice deal!
Mmmh, it seems there's some woodwork and tweed work to be done, with this guy... Me, I would just buy a new cab and swap the beast, keeping the old one, just in case.
Best regards,
Danskman
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I traded a Crate amp for it. Simply unbelievable.
:worthy1:
Wow!
Best Regards
R.
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Thats a great deal and a nice amp, even if it does need tweed! I'm surprised the guy wanted to trade it for a Crate of all things! I don't think the speaker is original...it should have a P12Q I think.
I have a 1956 original 5E3 that I got for $250 back about 5 years ago. I had repaired the amp for the owner previously and he wanted to get rid of it and a 1957 Duo Sonic that was also all original. All the original Astron caps leaked DC pretty badly and the electrolytics had physically leaked in the chassis, so they all had to be replaced, except the mica cap in the tone stack. I gave them to him in a bag and told him to keep them, and of course he threw them away. The amp was also missing the original speaker and had a Radio Shack one in it, but the tweed was A+ shape on the cabinet. So I found a reconed 1956 Jensen P12R (probably what was original in this amp) and it is good to go. It has one side of the heater string grounded stock, so it hums a little more than I would like when up a bit, but it sounds great. I will probably clone it though and sell the original since they are bringing a fair coin these days. I keep saying that but its been 5 years and I still have it. I did sell the Duo Sonic about 6 months after I got it for $1500 (about what they are worth) since it was a short scale guitar and I just couldn't handle the short scale length. The guitar was fantastic though and now I understand the vintage guitar thing....
Enjoy your amp!
Greg
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Yes i now see that the speaker was changed long ago. I found a site that has some pretty cool info: And yes i just woke up and it is really here. Just freaky man. Im definatley going to flip it and im not so certain that i want to do anything to the cab. Im not greedy.
The Chassis & untouched parts is what blows my mind
http://hardway.quantum-foam.com/5E3.html (http://hardway.quantum-foam.com/5E3.html)
The Jensen P12R was a low-power speaker, which added greatly to the tonal properties of the amp, but also gave it a tendency to blow up when pushed too hard for too long. Many Deluxes from the 1950s have their speakers replaced with P12Qs or P12Ns
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WOW! Very nice Plexi.
:think1: When did Leo switch over to shielded OT's? I thought all 5E3's had open frame OT's?
Brad :dontknow:
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Given the "5" for the year on the OT, and the different part #, it is also probably a later replacement. However, it does appear to be an old replacement, maybe around the time the speaker was replaced.
Regardless, this is a good amp to use to check voltages, as the PT appears consistent to original amps. We always wind up having to go back to earlier Deluxe schematics to guess correct d.c. voltages for the 5E3.
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Regardless, this is a good amp to use to check voltages, as the PT appears consistent to original amps. We always wind up having to go back to earlier Deluxe schematics to guess correct d.c. voltages for the 5E3.
Yeah ain't that funny? One of the most popular DIY amp builds and that schemo has no voltages on it. :BangHead: :cussing:
Brad :laugh:
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Nice! I like doing tweed. O got an old ibanez solid state amp, you wanna trade? :worthy1:
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Incredible trade. Very nicely done!
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How soon 'til your conscience makes you feel guilty on that a** kickin' ya done there? reminds me of the famous mafioso quote, "like takin' candy from a baby"
:icon_biggrin:
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I feel so quilty im not say in any thin--------------------------
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A deal is a deal. Unless the guy was mentally challenged, no reason to feel guilty. That is a great deal and I am envious. I love old fender amps.
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Awesome amp, congrats !
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Oh my... A Crate for this? Really? :think1:
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I have a bad habbit of mentioning what i pay when i find something that is just not that easy to come by. I do this because i am in disbelief that anyone would not take the time to restore it and get top dollar for it. I havent mentioned what i payed for the 1954 5D6A Bassman because i dont want to rub it in or upset anyone. Im sitting here looking at both of them and as far as im concerned right now they really arent here. They will sit until i feel like it's safe to approach them. To me this is the equivilent of hitting the lottery twice in 2 days. To freaky
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Look at it this way: One man`s junk is another man`s treasure. As long as he is happy and you are happy its a win win. I`m happy for you.
Punky
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Shame on you for at least 30 minutes!!! :BangHead: Then when that is done------------------
Celebrate
:m12
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Look at it this way: One man`s junk is another man`s treasure. As long as he is happy and you are happy its a win win. I`m happy for you.
Punky
Thanks Punky. It is what it is.
I have a conflict going on here regarding the 5E3 Narrow Panel OT specs. Ampwares info says 15 watt output.
Specs on replacement OT for the Deluxe 5E3 on every site i have looked say 20-25 watts output.
This OT was definatley replaced early in it's life as HBP pointed out. I have noticed that the original stock OT looks a bit bigger as the mounting holes also indicate. Could the 15 watt rating be more like 20 watts for the 5E3? The amp seems to be holding back at volume and just doesnt fill the room with any headroom. The replaced OT on this chassis (022913) from what i have found was:
Used In: Push-Pull Blonde & Blackface Princeton**, Blackface & Silverface Princeton Reverb**, Champ II**, Super Champ*
My 15 watt Princeton reverb kicks butt and blows this amp away. It has a (022913) 15 watt OT in it
My caps,resistors and bias are all spot on as well as a dead even plate voltage of 360VDC per power tube
Pleasing volume just isnt enough to me. Though i have never heard a real 1959 5E3 either/
Ok Platefire i will go sit in the corner for 30 minutes. Can i smoke?
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You can smoke as long as all the smoke is captured in a vent hood and transferred in an airtight evacuation chamber. You know about that second hand smoke! The only other option is an electronic cigerette.
Truthfully us old amp heads place a lot more value on old vintage amps than other folks or should I say some musicians. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I bought an old GA40 Les Paul amp for $200.00 in very simalar condition--bare wood, backplate missing, circuit exposed. I patched the dents in the wood with carpenter puddy, built a new backplate to cover the back of the chassis, re-tweeded it, new oxblood grill cloth and even built a Gibson grill logo out of vinyl base cove. Was a very rewarding project. Platefire
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Your amp looks great!
Exactamundo! The fun of making an old amp come alive again is what turns me on. I havent personally retweeded a cab before. Thats sorta out of my realm but i may have to learn how. It is very rewarding. I like to learn how to do doing different things from time to time. Smoking is BS and i know it. If figured if i told you i had an electronic cigarette it would be 1 hour in the corner :dontknow:
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Your welcome, The amp seems to be holding back at volume and just doesnt fill the room with any headroom.
Are the voltages normal for a 5E3?. Just for drill, can you do a turns ratio test on that OPT?
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I had a '55 Tremolux once, which is an older brother to this amp, with tremolo.
That wasn't a loud amp either. Loud enough for recording and lower volume situations, but would be overshadowed by my 5F4 Super clone. So what you're hearing may be normal, especially if you're very used to 40-50w amps.
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I think my hearing is playing a big part in this. I played 50-100 watt amps for so long that my hearing is dark and not bright anymore. If i make a cup with my hands back behind my ears i can hear things on my stereo & turnatable i cant normally hear any more. I thought at one point of making a pair of strap on shells to see how much better i would hear. Ok, i know the strap on thing doesnt sound right but thats how it is. :l2: :laugh: :l2:
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Your welcome, The amp seems to be holding back at volume and just doesnt fill the room with any headroom.
Are the voltages normal for a 5E3?. Just for drill, can you do a turns ratio test on that OPT?
punkykatt i am getting the voltages together and will make them avaibable later today
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Your welcome, The amp seems to be holding back at volume and just doesnt fill the room with any headroom.
Are the voltages normal for a 5E3?. Just for drill, can you do a turns ratio test on that OPT?
punkykatt i am getting the voltages together and will make them avaibable later today
Nice grab! Thanks for sharing the pics. We're all looking forward to seeing the voltages.
Cheers,
Chip
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Here are the voltages using Dougs tube chart. I have a problem i think. V2 pin#8 voltage reading shows 021 volts. My meter is good. The 1.5k,56k resistors are good. I see Archos and Steve both have roughly +40 volts at this point
Voltages were taken after a 20 minute warm up
http://www.el34world.com/charts/valve/ValveData.php?e=view&f=14613 (http://www.el34world.com/charts/valve/ValveData.php?e=view&f=14613)
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The 1.5k,56k resistors are good.
Please recheck both 56K resistors. Looking at your pic, the 56K on the cathode appears to be green/blue/yellow (560K). The plate resistor looks normal, ie, green/blue/orange. It's probably just a camera or computer monitor thing, but worth verifying again.
Oh, the 68K input resistors look like 680K also. Surely it's just a camera thing. They look original to me.
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The 1.5k,56k resistors are good.
Please recheck both 56K resistors. Looking at your pic, the 56K on the cathode appears to be green/blue/yellow (560K). The plate resistor looks normal, ie, green/blue/orange. It's probably just a camera or computer monitor thing, but worth verifying again.
Oh, the 68K input resistors look like 680K also. Surely it's just a camera thing. They look original to me.
Yeah my camera or should i say light is not very good. The color bands are orange and the 56k resistors read 56k. I cant think of what would cause a low voltage at that point other than a not so good tube in V2. I have tried 4 different tubes so thats not the issue.
The .1 coupling cap isnt leaking but the 220k resistors are reading 260k
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Took a voltage reading again using a different DVM i have. Beckman DVM. On auto that test point V2 pin 8 is fluxuating up and down like a vibrato pulse between +18 & 19 mv. Constantly. It never becomes idle
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pin 8 is fluxuating up and down like a vibrato pulse between +18 & 19 mv. Constantly. It never becomes idle.
Quite possibly on the borderline of where the meter flips its reading from 18 to 19V. have you got the meter on the hundreds of volts setting or the tens of volts setting?
Nice score by the way. Very tin-arsey. :icon_biggrin:
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Could you also post the voltages of the B+ nodes as well (at the filter caps). If the other amps had higher B+ voltage, they might also have more current through the split-load tube, and therefore more voltage dropped across the plate and cathode loads.
If the voltage drop across the plate load is similar to the 19-23v you're measuring across the cathode load, you're fine. You might also measure the 56kΩ plate and cathode loads and the 1.5kΩ cathode resistor to check they're not way out of tolerance.
If voltage drops are similar and resistances are +/-10% you should be good to go.
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Your tube chart shows 20 VOLTS. Now you are measuring 18 milliVolts. Volts, millivolts, which is it? That's a huge difference!
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Your tube chart shows 20 VOLTS. Now you are measuring 18 milliVolts. Volts, millivolts, which is it? That's a huge difference!
The plate and cathode load resistors are dead on there values of 1,5k & 56K. My fluke mete is reading every other voltage in the amp just fine. But when i probe pin 8 i get no decimal and it just shows 019 - 020. When i use the Beckman DVM on auto it show a clear + positive symbol of 16-18 mv volts that runs up and down. No volts. Thats milla volts. Not volts. Here is the 5E3 schematic that i doodled with yesteday morning and all the voltages.
Reposting schematic in few
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Measure resistance from pin 8 (directly on tube socket) to chassis.
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Resistance from pin 8 to chassis is 62.5k. Going to lift .1 cap lead and see what happens with resistance.
No change. 56k yesterday now reading 60K
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OK. Now measure resistance between V2 pin 6 and rectifier V5 pin 8. Probes directly on tube sockets. Shouls be about 82K.
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Changed old 56kr reading 60k out for new CC 56k. Resistance between V2 pin 6 and recto pin 8 is 86k
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OK. One of your meters is lying to you about the cathode voltage. Please find out which one. You must know what the cathode voltage is. If that Beckman was telling the truth your amp would be totally silent. If the Fluke is telling the truth your amp might not be as loud as you would like, but it would make a fairly decent sound.
FAA and the National Airspace System depend on Fluke. :wink:
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Yes i just compared the Fluke and Beckman. Look at the Beckman display MV at one point. Yes they are both showing voltage in milla volts. The voltage is +023 but still showing mv. Displays should read +23.0. This is weird :think1:
Is +40.0 volts the optimal biasing for V2 cathode of this amplifier and what we are shooting for??
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they both say 23mV :dontknow:
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they both say 23mV :dontknow:
Well yeah thats what i mean. I dont have a decimal point on either meter that indicates 23.0 volts. Its messing with my head. I mean the meters woudlnt read the cathode voltages of V1 & V2A and then not read +23.0 VDC on either meter. I need a Bubba soda
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Got it! Tried 4 different tubes last week in and out but made no difference. All that was left was to check the 8 pin socket for pin retention. All pins looked good and tight. Used acetone (nail polish remover) on small brush to get very 54 year old burnished pins clean as new. Put tube in and BINGO! :worthy1: Thanks to you all! FAA approved :worthy1:
Once again another mystery of the ampcog solved.
Now the volume is kicking and louder than i thought possable from this amp. It sounds fantastic!
Now you can understand why i was so dumfounded at the little bland and tiny sound it was producing. AMEN!
Now i understand why they sell for so much online. Amazing cleans and amazing breakup. Wowza!
Final schematic voltages after 45 minutes of warm up.
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Awesome! That was sharp thinking, and good perseverance keeping at it until you found the issue!
Again, please update your voltage chart (if you haven't already), and post voltages of B+ nodes.
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Thanks HBP. Voltage chart posted. I think i have to keep this amp regardless of the money it would return. I have never heard such clean and breakup in any amp like this one. The volume and tone pots gets you anywhere you want to go from sweet shimmering clean to 2 more levels of breakup. It slowly breaks up,not all at once. When you reach 12 on the dial it is still articulate even through the breakup. Sorry but this puppy is not for sale. The 1954 5D6A Bassman i have on the other hand is more amp than i will ever need so it will go after i finish it's restoration. Man you cant build a 5E3 clone and get this tone. JMHO
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Yea Haw!!!!! :happy1:
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Used acetone (nail polish remover) on small brush to get very 54 year old burnished pins clean as new. Put tube in and BINGO!
The socket pins?
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Used acetone (nail polish remover) on small brush to get very 54 year old burnished pins clean as new. Put tube in and BINGO!
The socket pins?
Brad :icon_biggrin:
Yeah Willabe of all things it was pin 8 of V2 socket. Pins looked like they were nice and tight but the tube was not making any electrical connection on pin 8 cathode. Never thought to clean them first. I even wiggled the tubes i was trying in that positon all last week and it never gave a crackle or hint of a bad connection
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Yeah Willabe of all things it was pin 8 of V2 socket. Pins looked like they were nice and tight but the tube was not making any electrical connection on pin 8. Never thought to clean them first
Ok.
Well then good job!
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Front panel looking good. Man this thing has tone i never knew exhisted! Im just shaking my head.
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For an amp that age that chassis is remarkable. When you get around to checking the resistors, please let us know if any are far off the schematic. Perhaps some have drifted to a better place (value) for tone? I live in South Venice, I`m almost tempted to drive up and hear this amp for myself? With your permission of coase. Punky
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For an amp that age that chassis is remarkable. When you get around to checking the resistors, please let us know if any are far off the schematic. Perhaps some have drifted to a better place (value) for tone? I live in South Venice, I`m almost tempted to drive up and hear this amp for myself? With your permission of coase. Punky
Oh hell your not that far from me. It is a drive but doable. You have to hear this thing to believe it. The only resistors that had strayed from value were the 56k V2 cathode pin 8 that read 60k. And the 220K bias grid resistors. I changed out the 56k but have not changed out the 220k's. They read 260k. I might leave them alone. I dont think they are critically affecting the bias though in the real world i would like to see 220k as they are part of the bias grid of the amplifier
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Man, I would love to hear that amp in person and compare it to my 5E3 build. I recently had foot surgury and will be on cruches till the end of the month. Perhaps some time in Febuary I can take a ride up to your place?
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That sounds fine punkykatt! I would be curious to hear myself how they compare. I just had knee surgery myself in september. Still have to be careful how i walk.
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If you want Plexi, I can share pics of my 1956 5E3 here so you can compare? All the caps and some of the resistors have been replaced in mine, but I think I still have some pics (not the best quality) of before I touched it. Other than those changes, and the replacement 1956 reconed Jensen P12R, mine is completely stock.
Greg
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If you want Plexi, I can share pics of my 1956 5E3 here so you can compare? All the caps and some of the resistors have been replaced in mine, but I think I still have some pics (not the best quality) of before I touched it. Other than those changes, and the replacement 1956 reconed Jensen P12R, mine is completely stock.
Greg
I have a few dozen reference google & ebay pics and some nice ones too. We were talking about comparing my amp and punkykatt's 5E3 amp side by side doing a tone comparison between the two of them. All pics are welcome though. Never get tired of good old amp pics SoundmasterG
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Cool, I'll share what I have including voltages then over the weekend. It will be fun to compare two of the amps! I bet they will sound different.
Conrad Sundholm is a friend of mine and he built a 5E3 clone with the Paul C mod last year, and a Weber P12Q whichever model that is and we compared it to my '56. His was louder and brighter with more headroom, while mine was darker and broke up sooner. Mine has a P12R in it. Both amps sounded good and you could tell they were basically the same family, but they were both different enough. He ended up selling that amp to a local player.
Greg
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I've built quite a few 5E3's and they can sound quite different but the main character remains throughout as long as good quality transformers were used.
I jsut finished teaching a building class for the 5E3 up here in Calgary and the little 5E3 clones are all barking away nicely!
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I just finished teaching a building class for the 5E3 up here in Calgary and the little 5E3 clones are all barking away nicely!
Wow, that's cool phsyconoodler. How did you like teaching the class?
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Hell thats pretty cool. Your teaching a new generation to carry the torch (tube). Thats sounds like a very rewarding job :worthy1:
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Got the Jupiter tone caps in this after noon. Looks and sounds great. No tonal change. Voltages are the same. Sounds super
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I got the cabinet re-tweeded from a good friend that really knows his stuff. Tommorrow is tint/laquer day to get the right tint. Here are a few pics of the cab corners and such. Im glad i have the original handle hardware and Deluxe logo to put on it. Im keeping this one. Dont some of us always say that? :laugh:
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That's looking great! Its really nice to discover these old amps and bring them back to life, especially when you get a great deal like you and I did.
As promised here are some pics of my '56, sorry it took so long. Mine was and is in great cosmetic shape. I'm the second owner and the first owner used it mostly in his house. Every cap was bad in mine so they all had to go. I gave them to him in a bag but he threw them all away....so when I got the amp from him a couple years later the original caps were not available in case I ever decided to sell it. It had a Rat Shack speaker in it because his son blew up the original speaker in the 60's and he called Fender and they told him to use one from the Rat Shack! The speaker in it now is a reconed 1956 Jensen P12R, which was original for my year. Later ones had the P12Q and I think that speaker sounds better myself.
Greg
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For voltages, mine is as follows:
pin 6 12AY7 = 109v
pin 3,8 12AY7 = 1.7v
pin 1 12AY7 = 108v
pin 1 12AX7 = 147v
pin 3 12AX7 = 1v
pin 6 12AX7 = 185v
pin 8 12AX7 = 38v
12AX7 between 56k and 1k5 = 14.6v
6V6 plates = 377v
6v6 screens and cathodes = forgot to write down so will have to recheck
first power supply tap supplying OT = 378v
next tap supplying screens = 314v
next tap supplying PI and preamp = 224v
My amp was noticeably darker and gainier than the clone that Conrad built. His did have the Paul C mod and was using a P12Q too though so that plays a bit of difference. Some of the power supply resistors are probably drifted in my amp, but I haven't checked because it sounds great and works fine.
Greg
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It feels good to have such a great amp doesnt it? Your amp is in great condition. I think im going to use a P12Q myself. Not 100% sure i will ever find a 1959 P12Q. I have a P12R so i might as well use it. Did the first tint this morning
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Deluxe cab finished. It came out awesome looking. I need to get the Alnico speaker reconed tommorrow and put the handle on it. My friend really got the got the lines straight. I have the Oxblood grill cloth so that will be the next thing to get done. :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1:
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It feels good to have such a great amp doesnt it? Your amp is in great condition. I think im going to use a P12Q myself. Not 100% sure i will ever find a 1959 P12Q. I have a P12R so i might as well use it. Did the first tint this morning
Yeah it does, though I will probably build myself a clone and sell this one at some point. I'm confident I can make a clone sound as good or better, and I will be ahead money-wise and not have to worry about value if I mod the amp. My amp IS in really good shape...I try to keep it that way as much as possible too. :) My '56 is noisy because it has one side of the filament string grounded, and the P12R, while original for this year, doesn't sound as good as a P12Q or a Celestion Blue does.
The P12R that I have, I found on ebay....it was freshly reconed by Orange County and was a real 1956 P12R, which totally beat the junk Rat Shack speaker that was in there. I tried a Weber 12A150 in there and while it sounded good, it had a bit too much bass. You may do a search and see if you can find a real '59 P12Q.
Your cabinet is looking great!
Greg
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The cabinet looks simply stellar. I'd have a hard time selling that even though I am not a Tweeder.
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The cabinet looks simply stellar. I'd have a hard time selling that even though I am not a Tweeder.
Well you wont ever see it on Ebay thats for sure. Money (cash) has become sort of meaningless to me. It comes and it goes.
If it comes in at the same rate that it goes out then i will never have to sell it. It really turned out surreal. Final pics after i get the grill cloth finished
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I finished the Oxblood grill cloth this afternoon. Here is link to the final pic's. To many to repost here. Sure has come a longggg way from the condition it was in:
http://triodeamplification.com/FenderDeluxe.html (http://triodeamplification.com/FenderDeluxe.html)
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WOW!!!!!!!!! That's like an entirely new amp!! But old at the same time.
I'm thinking you'll be very happy you held on to it!
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WOW!!!!!!!!! That's like an entirely new amp!! But old at the same time.
I'm thinking you'll be very happy you held on to it!
Yeah your right HBP. The strange part for me is remembering how untweedly it was and could never have expected it to come out so well. The 54 Bassman is next. That will be a real shocker to see that cab tweeded again the same way this one was.
I think Old Spice is a good name for it