Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum
Other Stuff => Cabinets-Speakers => Topic started by: TIMBO on July 05, 2014, 01:45:29 am
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Hi guys, Thought I would start a new topic as there will be questions.
Brad, I was lucky to get the real deal motors and cheese wheel. Its a cool effect, so i'll box it up and get it working right.
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Wow, nice Timbo!
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Hi guys, This is the switching circuit so far, please add anything if required. Thanks
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Timbo, I have the same type of set up as you. Mine had an 8" speaker in it, what size speaker did yours have?
The styrofoam wheel measures 14.25" but the hole in the speaker baffle is only 7".
These Leslie units were sold to different company's for different things, some were built into organ cabinets and some were stand alone units. They used different sized speakers, 8", 10' or 12".
I'm wondering if they all had a 7" hole in the speaker baffle no matter what sized speaker they used?
Brad :think1:
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Hey Brad, This unit had an 8" made in Japan speaker and i think that the hole was about 7". As far as I know this unit came out of a Hammond organ.
I only enlarged the diameter by about 1/2" to use a 10" speaker as I would think that if the hole was much bigger, the sound would leak around the wheel rather than being directed via the flue in the wheel :dontknow:
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I only enlarged the diameter by about 1/2" to use a 10" speaker as I would think that if the hole was much bigger, the sound would leak around the wheel rather than being directed via the flue in the wheel :dontknow:
I think you right. That's why I'm starting to wonder if all of those units had only a 7" speaker baffle hole?
Brad :think1:
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Hey guys, I'm getting help from some of the local guys, as I know nothing about electric motors and some changes to the switching circuit.Thanks
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Timbo, I'm curious why you are using two dc relays? You only need one. And if you use a common 24VAC relay with 24VAC transformer (such as found in HVAC systems) you could drop all the power supply circuitry too.
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Hey I found this picture and it came stock with a Jenson 12" speaker in it.
Looking at the foam rotor drum scoop size and baffle cut out, it looks exactly like mine.
So I'm thinking now that ALL the standard 2 speed Leslie's sold to different manufacturers for them to use in their organs and stand alone Leslie's such as Fenders 16/18 models came with a standard 7" speaker baffle hole no matter if they used an 8", a 10" or a 12" speaker.
I did find 1 guy that said his 122/147 Leslie that has the standard 15" bass speaker has a 14 1/3" (1/3" ????? :w2: 1/3" = 4"?) baffle hole.
(Edit; There I go again thinking too fast, all wound up, mind spinning like the Leslie, result, NOT thinking. :laugh: 1/3" = ~ 5/16"? anyway,)
I have to find my Hammond/Leslie book "Love of the B" and see if there's any info in there.
Brad :think1:
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Here's a couple more that I just found from a model 120. It came stock with a single 12" speaker.
Baffle hole is smaller than the rotor drum. You can see this clearly in the 2nd photo.
I'm thinking the speaker baffle hole was cut to be the ~same size as the baffle's scoop not the speaker.
Brad :think1:
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Thanks guys, Sluckey , I have had a hard time trying to get the brain to nut this one out for one relay, I would prefer to use one relay as the control box I have is small. You might need to draw me a picture. Thanks
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I put a twelve inch speaker with a normal sized hole (11 and whatever inches") on a drum made for a 10" speaker (the drum is probably 14-16"), and have had no problems sound wise.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5042/5348264843_ac08ed6a7c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/99BfNP)
I do need to either make a VFD (variable frequency drive) for it, or get a two speed motor, as mine only came with a one speed fast motor.
Gabriel
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Hi Gabe,
That doesn't make sense, how could they cut a speaker baffle hole larger then the speaker and then be able to mount the speaker to the baffle?
Brad :dontknow:
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Timbo, here's the schemo fro the Fender Vibrotone, it uses 1 relay.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Here's the schematic for the motor control only. I did not want to muddy the pic with the speaker switching. And I left off the suppression caps across the relay contacts too.
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Timbo, here's a link for a very brief description on how the 2 speed/2 motor system, it's very cleaver IMO and not what you'd expect ;
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16136.0;attach=39179 (http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16136.0;attach=39179)
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Hi Gabe,
That doesn't make sense, how could they cut a speaker baffle hole larger then the speaker and then be able to mount the speaker to the baffle?
Brad :dontknow:
I used a 12" speaker. I had to leave some extra bits to accommodate the mounting for the rotor. This is the best photo I can get at the moment. The baffle is a replacement that I made, as the original was (of course) for a 10" speaker, and also because I didn't like the chipboard they used to make it.
Gabriel
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Timbo, here's a link that I started on a Leslie unit I got a hold of and all the Fender spec sheets/schemos I found for it are in the thread, if you don't have them.
please take pictures as you go (I know you always do) because someday I'd like to try to edit the, what, 4, 5 threads on these recycled and original/rebuilt guitar Leslie's (including links to the original threads?) into 1 source of info (like Tubenit does so well) and put it in the Archives of Favorites. :icon_biggrin:
http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=16136.0 (http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=16136.0)
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Thanks Gabe,
I found your thread that you originally posted and saw that. Now I get it. :BangHead:
Is the motor mount that's attached to the baffle (yellow/gold color) original or did you make that or modify/buy something to use?
Also I've never seen the 3 rod/tripod mounting bracket for the drum that yours has. I'm guessing it a latter Leslie co. design? Or did you make it? It looks very stable, maybe more stable then the original Leslie flat bar/2 point mounting bracket.
(BTW, please forgive me as I'm a terrible speller and spell check is not responding 1 way or the other. Is it Gab or Gabe that's short for Gabriel?)
Thanks, Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Thanks Gabe,
I found your thread that you originally posted and saw that. Now I get it. :BangHead:
(BTW, please forgive me as I'm a terrible speller and spell check is not responding 1 way or the other. Is it Gab or Gabe that's short for Gabriel?)
Thanks, Brad :icon_biggrin:
Well, I prefer Gabriel, but the short for it is usually Gabe.
Gabriel
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Well, I prefer Gabriel, but the short for it is usually Gabe.
Well, then Gabriel it is!
(I'm William Bradley and I go by Brad, but I like William, or Will, or Willy and not Bill, which is what the police ALWAYS call me, drivers licenses well the few times I've been pulled over. :BangHead: And yes it's only been a few times in 55 years (-16 before a drivers licenses) in Chgo and its near suburbs. :l2:)
BTW, please go back and look at the questions I added to reply #18, sorry about that.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Hi guys, Sluckey, my intentions of having the second relay is to turn the relays off completely via the foot switch. I thought that when you said that I only needed one relay I was on a winner as space in the control box is small. I had seen that the fender/leslie used one relay but no on/off.
With the on/off this way I can have it connected to its own amp and using an AB/Y switch on the guitar signal,this allows the guitar split between amps and the tremolo effect be turn on/off when needed.
I trimmed down the PSU as I can get the 12vdc relays from the local shop but they don't have AC relays. Thanks
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Is the motor mount that's attached to the baffle (yellow/gold color) original or did you make that or modify/buy something to use?
Also I've never seen the 3 rod/tripod mounting bracket for the drum that yours has. I'm guessing it a latter Leslie co. design? Or did you make it? It looks very stable, maybe more stable then the original Leslie flat bar/2 point mounting bracket.
Ooops! Sorry, guess I missed that.
Everything but the baffle is original, and I just copied the pattern of holes for the mechanism. I don't know when it was made, but given that it came with a single speed motor, I think we can safely assume it is from a lower cost organ.
Gabriel
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Hi guys, some progress with the control box and footswitch. Relays work well and the on/off switch is doing the job.
I have snubbers across the motor contacts but they seem to be letting AC through as there is no break when the relay is on or off. Thanks
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I'll retract that last post, as I was testing the circuit without it connected to the motors and with each motor connected to there relay she works a treat
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Hi guys, Control box and footswitch completed and working GREAT. :icon_biggrin:
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Really nice work Timbo. You're making me want one! :bravo1:
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Thanks Sluckey, I need to get a new speaker as the original 8" was a cheap jap job with a hole in it. I not sure if I need to do a crossover as I think the speaker range these days I'm sure I should be able to find something that will have good mid-upper range frequencies.Thanks
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Hi guys, The Weber California 10 looks to be the replacement speaker of choice, but unfortunately they are a bit expensive and I am not able to buy locally and the add shipping is a killer. I have used the Jensen mods and they are great for an allround speaker.
I found this http://www.jensentone.com/mod_series/mod_10_70 (http://www.jensentone.com/mod_series/mod_10_70) at tubes and more for $40 as they are B-stock plus shipping was still cheaper than anything I can get local. :icon_biggrin:
I'll install it and see if it requires a crossover.Thanks
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Hey Timbo, any updates?
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Hey Sluckey, Just waiting for parts, Tolex turned up during the week so this is the first job for the weekend and hopefully the speaker will turn up soon. This is the problem of living on a big island, as there is limited suppliers of this stuff and it is very expensive. I bought a used speaker from Tubes and More for $40 bucks and delivery $65 and over a week wait. Thanks
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Partz.......................................still waiting :sleepy2: :sleepy2:
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A little progress....................
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MORE
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Looking sharp Timbo!
I couldn't stand it any longer so I picked up one of the cheaper units from eBay. It's like the unit that Gabriel has except it has a two speed motor unit. Sound pretty good even with the stock 8" speaker. I may put a 12" in it though. Still thinking about how I will house it. I definitely does the Leslie sound better than my Warbler.
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COOL :thumbsup:
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Speaker has arrived.................
The vibratone/Leslie look to have a fully closed back, but I would think that this would generate too much BASS and which would make it hard to cut through a mix.
I have seen some with a opening across the cab just where the control box sits and I can see that this would help with the mids and highs.
:icon_biggrin:
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Some investigation has it as a fully closed back even though there is an opening across the back.
I opted to have an opening at the bottom that will act as a port but if this doesn't achieve anything I will box it out and use it as a storage pocket for the lead and footswitch.
I have an 8ohm speaker and I have been trying to think how I need to set up the amp connection.
Do I just mark the socket 8ohm as this would be plugged into a dedicated amp that has an AB/Y to another amp at the amps inputs.
Make a split connection that is marked with a 4ohm jack that has a parallel split to two 8ohm cabs
OR............... :dontknow:
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Timbo, looking real good!!!!!
I had 1 of the Fender Vibrotone's and pulled a drum unit out of an old SS Hammond organ both had a paper type of insolation stapled tightly around the back of the speaker.
I think they wanted all the sound to be modulated by the drum for full effect? Any sound coming off the back wave of the speaker won't be effected by the drum.
But who knows maybe your on to a good option?
Brad :dontknow:
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Hey Brad, This had the same paper insulation, so I was thinking I would do something similar. I was planning a sound sample this weekend.
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Hi guys, This one is just about done, put the finishing touches on and it looks great.
After some searching it seems that a dedicated amp is a better setup for sound and tone.
The original hookup for the speakers has a 200uf in series with the speaker. I have not put this in as yet but will try it for sound.Thanks
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The original hookup for the speakers has a 200uf in series with the speaker. I have not put this in as yet but will try it for sound.
That 200µF cap is the mid/hi freq part of the crossover network for the original Vibratone 16/18. The low freq part of the crossover is in the dongle part of the connecter. Basically the crossover allows the speaker in the Vibratone to reproduce the mids and highs while allowing the speaker in the main amp to reproduce only lows. When the Vibratone is switched off, the speaker inside the Vibratone is disconnected and the low freq part of the crossover is shorted out (bypassed) allowing the speaker in the main amp to reproduce the full spectrum of the main amp.
I've been running my little Leslie directly from my main amp without any crossover. IOW, it acts just like an external speaker cab. I replaced the 8" speaker in my unit with a full range 12" Weber California. I like the full range sound. I don't think you'll need/want that 200µF cap unless you will be using the other part of the crossover.
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Hey Sluckey, gave it a blast with my limited axe work and its an amazing effect.
I think the MOD is a good all rounder and does a great job with out any filtering.
The one thing that a lot of user were saying is that they don't work that well as a normal speaker cab, but this DOES a pretty good job with out being too muffled. I would think that if it were mic'd it up through a house PA I would think it would work just as good as standard speaker.
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Hi guys, Its now in the hands of the Hudson Wilde boys to do some magic. We had a play around with setting a mic up but they just don't do it justice.
It seems that having a couple of mic's is the way to go, so I left it with them.
I hope to have some clips soon. Thanks
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That looks incredible Timbo! The slant face cab really kicks it up a notch too.
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Very nice job TIMBO :thumbsup:
Franco
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Thanks K :icon_biggrin:
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Hey guys, The wait is over.......................
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_gALUsuv2U&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_gALUsuv2U&feature=youtu.be)
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Timbo didn't even see yours before Steves very cool and great job :worthy1: :worthy1: :worthy1:
I will have to stick this one on the bucket list.
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VERY cool.
When you use this, is this the only speaker connected to the amp?
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Hey jeff, As this one does not have a built in amp, you would have a designated amp to use it, with an ABY switch to split your guitar signal.
OR, use one amp and connect the main speaker in parallel.
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VERY cool.
When you use this, is this the only speaker connected to the amp?
It can be, or you can use it in combination with another speaker, which makes it a bit more subtle. You just need to follow the basic rules for matching impedance, and for parallel and/or series matching. I've got a switch I made with some high power relays that switches between either of the two speakers (the one in my 18 watt combo, or the one in the "Leslie"), or both, which also switches between the 8ohm and 4ohm taps on the OT. (Wired in such a way as to make it impossible to leave things "open," of course.)
Gabriel
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I'd love to see that schematic for your switching.
I wondered if Leslies are usually used with a dry speaker cab so the signal gets canceled and/or reinforced as the leslie spins.
Which do you prefer leslie alone or two speakers?
Also did you ever try playing with the phase of the two speakers?
Again, great job on the build Timbo!
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The original Leslie 16/18 (Fender Vibratone) was meant to operate with the normal speaker of an amplifier. But there was a crossover network that would send the amp's output thru a low pass filter (L1 and C2) to the amp's normal speaker and thru a high pass filter C3 (inside the Leslie) to the Leslie speaker. So, both speakers were in use when the Leslie was on. Turning the Leslie footswitch off disconnected the amp's output to the Leslie cabinet and also bypassed the low pass crossover so the amp's output hit the amp's speaker directly. (see attached wiring diagram)
I've never played with reversing the phasing of the Leslie. I have used the Lelsie as the only speaker and also just in parallel with the amp's speaker. I don't have a crossover but have considered building one. The Leslie effect is very pronounced either way. It sounds different depending on where you stand.
The only thing I'd like to change about mine is the slow speed. I wish it was a little faster. I've noticed that when switching from fast to slow the motors hit an intermediate speed that give a slow swirling sound, almost like panning, but different. I like that sound a lot.
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I'm with you on that. Slow's too slow fast is too fast. Variable speed would be nice but I don't think itJs possible with those motors.
It says P1 connects to S2, but the numbers don't seem to match up.
Trust the numbers or trust the position?
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I'd love to see that schematic for your switching.
I wondered if Leslies are usually used with a dry speaker cab so the signal gets canceled and/or reinforced as the leslie spins.
Which do you prefer leslie alone or two speakers?
It's pretty simple - just a couple of relays and some driver jfets. I used a Tyco RTE24006, which is fine for my 18 watt, but may not be sufficient for a larger amp. Also, the power supply is pretty simple, and worked fine for me, but you may need to do something a bit more elaborate.
It's not a question of whether it's better with or without the static speaker, but which better for the song. Also, the phase shouldn't make much difference, because the phase of the Leslie changes throughout the spin, so you would just have the same phase relationships, at opposite sides of the spin.
I'm with you on that. Slow's too slow fast is too fast. Variable speed would be nice but I don't think itJs possible with those motors.
It says P1 connects to S2, but the numbers don't seem to match up.
Trust the numbers or trust the position?
You can do variable speed with induction motors, but it really isn't simple - at least not electronically. You need something called a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive). Induction motors speed is a function of the frequency of the AC power and the number of poles on the motor. In order to vary the speed of the motor, you vary the frequency of the power, but (as always) there is a problem. Obviously, in any inductor the impedance varies with frequency, so as you slow down the motor you will draw more current, and you can burn out your motor. And of course, as you speed up the motor you'll draw less current and can just stall your motor.
So, you either need to limit the range of the speed, or you need to limit the current at the same time as you vary the frequency. There are a couple of commercial units that are designed to give variable speed to single speed Leslies, but they are a bit pricy (search for Leslie 2-speed conversion, if you wish). The variable frequency part is actually pretty simple to design (a few diodes to give your self + and -60V rails, and an big MOSFET H bridge controlled by a variable frequency oscillator), but to limit the current you either need put in a bi-polar current limiter of some sort, or vary the voltage of both rails. The voltage is easier, but you need to do so of really rather high currents, so you can't just whack in a LM317 or similar voltage regulator. Honestly, if I could afford it, I'd probably just buy one of the commercial versions, as it's quite a lot of engineering.
Gabriel
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It says P1 connects to S2, but the numbers don't seem to match up.
Trust the numbers or trust the position?
Trust the numbers. They shuffled the positions so the schematic would not look all jumbled up.
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Cool cool.
Thanks
Jeff
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Hi guys, Had another wheel to put good use.
(https://i.imgur.com/q0B1wL0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6mBgAbp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1oMNFtr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zs5zf4e.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4vKGG2y.jpg)
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That's a very nice looking cabinet design!
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Thanks mate, Much smaller and lighter, can be picked up and carried with one hand (handle on one side)
I think the horizontal spread works better as well.
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Yes, very nice, clever design! :bravo1:
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Thanks mate, This is how I did the switching.
(https://i.imgur.com/RYv5yz7.jpg)
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Tim do you have a diagram with measurements of this new cab? :icon_biggrin:
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Hi Willabe, The design is very basic.
Base measures 490mm x 490mm
Height 400mm
The taper at the front is 200mm up from the base and is set in 50mm.
The workings are all mounted on the one board and is removed through the base.
There is another board that is fixed flush to the bottom is seal the cab.
Hope this helps. :icon_biggrin:
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Hope this helps. :icon_biggrin:
Yes it does, thank you Timbo! :icon_biggrin: