Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum
Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: tompagan123 on September 02, 2014, 09:31:23 pm
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Hello,
I almost hate to ask this. Has anyone noticed sonic differences with different wire types? There is an old Ken Fischer interview where he discusses this. Some loose quotes: PVC is "fast", Teflon is extra bright, irradiated PVC is "slow". He seems to prefer regular PVC. Ken also references the Komet amp that we was hired to design. The prototype was wired with Teflon and he supposedly had to make design changes to accommodate it.
He cites skin effect as the factor with Teflon that leads to the bright tone. The skin effect is supposedly due to the way the wire is treated to extrude the Teflon. I have used mostly cloth wire because I really enjoy working with it and I like the way it looks. PVC melts too easily for my taste. Irradiated PVC is supposedly more temperature tolerant - but I don't want any slow wire in my amp. :-) If the Teflon wire actually yields a bright sound some snubber cap(s) should do the trick I suppose. Oh, and cloth wire isn't safety compliant, that's why I'm considering alternatives.. I'd hate to build an "unsafe" amp.
Is this all hokum or is there something to it?
Thanks again!
Tom
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No, you won't be hearing differences in wire type. At least not the insulation, and probably not the conductor, either.
If it makes you feel better to use a certain wire type, then go for it. Teflon is a pain to strip compared to PVC, but your soldering iron won't melt it, which is why I use it. The real cloth-covered wire (as sold here) works similarly and it's easy to cut to length and simply push back the insulation a bit for soldering in place.
Skin effect only happens at very high frequencies, especially in the high radio & microwave range, so unless you're building a radar (which uses waveguides due to skin effect, not wires), it's a bogus argument.
Not your fault, I heard the same stuff when I was starting out.
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But, but, but surely the color of the wire has an effect. It just has to! I think that Fischer just liked to play with folks at times.
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On my list of 25+ things that can significantly impact tone, wire type would not even be close to being on the list.
With respect, Tubenit
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Teflon insulated wire is the way to go. It produces a slick, no-stick sound. I don't even need to lubricate my strings since switching to Teflon.
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No No No on Teflon, I ONLY use PTFE. The difference is the PTFE not only provides a superior tone to ANY other hookup wire, it lasts 17.24 times as long so it is a better value.
Don't even get me started about PVC. I like the cloth covered to clean my pipe. :laugh:
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Hadn't thought of it, Ken may well have been messing with that interviewer. Anyhow, I do have a decent understanding of basic soldering and I'm not terrible but I have always had a tendency to melt the PVC. I suppose a good aim and limiting the time spent with heat applied would be the obvious factors. Easy to say.. Any tricks of the trade would be much appreciated!
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Cloth-covered.
It sounds so good I even have it on my tractor headlights.
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you are all wrong! it's the soldering iron. you have to use a 80 watt pencil or it won't sound worth a shit. ;-)
teflon. i use teflon jacketed wire. solid 20AWG & 22AWG it's silver plated because that's the way i get it. why do i use teflon? because i'm lazy, it's easier to use, it doesn't melt as easily and stink like burning PVC. if i could find it without silver plating without having to buy it in 1000 ft put-ups, i would.
it all sounds the same.
--pete
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" if i could find it without silver plating without having to buy it in 1000 ft put-ups, i would. "
Hoffmann sells it by the foot. I'll be trying some.
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" if i could find it without silver plating without having to buy it in 1000 ft put-ups, i would. "
Hoffmann sells it by the foot. I'll be trying some.
stranded yes, not solid.
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He cites skin effect as the factor with Teflon that leads to the bright tone. The skin effect is supposedly due to the way the wire is treated to extrude the Teflon.
I just realized I didn't explain what I meant with my earlier comment...
As the frequency goes up, current has a tendency to stop flowing through the center of a conductor and move further away from the center towards the outer surface of the conductor. Skin Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect)
Note that 22ga wire has a diameter of ~0.65mm (http://www.tedpella.com/company_html/wire-gauge-vs-dia.htm), but the chart mid-way down the Skin Effect page shows that @ 100kHz, the skin depth is 0.21mm. That depth is from each outer edge, so about the middle-third of the 22ga wire is not flowing appreciable current. That would slightly increase the apparent resistance of the wire.
But you don't really care about the wire resistance with the very short lengths used in a guitar amp. And the frequency range present (where no fundamental tone is over ~1kHz, and your speaker probably roll-off by 6-10kHz) makes skin effect a non-issue.
Now you know. :icon_biggrin:
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DummyLoad, thanks for clarifying. I too prefer solid core 22awg. Too bat it can't be had in small quantities.
HotBluePlates, thanks for the clarification about skin effect.
So.. There's wire out there with irradiated PVC, supposed to handle much higher heat. Maybe that's the ticket. Anyone heard of it?
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Well, I am cursed with Real Good ears.
Sunspots and solar flares play real havoc with stranded wire AND skin effect. Solar inductance is what I call it. Cannot believe none of you guys hear it.
I have to call God Damn NASA every time I want to plug in a guitar, or all my time might be wasted bucking heads with the Solar Wind.
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DummyLoad, thanks for clarifying. I too prefer solid core 22awg. Too bat it can't be had in small quantities.
HotBluePlates, thanks for the clarification about skin effect.
So.. There's wire out there with irradiated PVC, supposed to handle much higher heat. Maybe that's the ticket. Anyone heard of it?
http://www.tronola.com/html/better_hookup_wire.html (http://www.tronola.com/html/better_hookup_wire.html)
Tom, that's what I found after a search. Seems like good stuff... no experience with it myself though.
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John, thanks for the article on IPVC. I'll report back if I find a source.
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That's a very interesting article, thanks for posting it John.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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" if i could find it without silver plating without having to buy it in 1000 ft put-ups, i would. "
Hoffmann sells it by the foot. I'll be trying some.
stranded yes, not solid.
Go here
http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html (http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html)
Also, Weber sells it by the foot and I prefer theirs. The jacket is thicker than most Teflon and it is no trouble to strip.
Here, scroll to the bottom.
https://taweber.powweb.com/store/cableord.htm (https://taweber.powweb.com/store/cableord.htm)
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I will definitely try some of this solid core Teflon wire from TA Weber. The reason I prefer solid is that I also build using eyelets. I like having the ability to force a wire into a crowded eyelet hole, and solid wire seems better suited to that. If I were using turrets it might not be an issue. Thanks for the tip on that!
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If you twist the stranded wire nice tight/smooth and pre-tin it lightly it may help.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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" if i could find it without silver plating without having to buy it in 1000 ft put-ups, i would. "
Hoffmann sells it by the foot. I'll be trying some.
stranded yes, not solid.
Go here
http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html (http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html)
i already do that... ;-) have never tried weber as a source tho.
--pete