Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum

Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: kagliostro on March 18, 2016, 05:08:20 am

Title: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: kagliostro on March 18, 2016, 05:08:20 am
On my 5C1 derived amp thread DummyLoad pointed my attention to the fact that 1625 (807) didn't allow grid leak resistor higher than 500k
(may be 470k ?)

so I tried to think a way to have both Volume Control and Grid Leak of appropiate value without waste of signal (this in my poor technical mind)

What will happen if I arrange a Volume pot as grid leak resistor and connect the wiper to the incoming signal instead of to the grid of the power tube ?

(http://i.imgur.com/RASLxr5.jpg)

Thanks

Franco
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: sluckey on March 18, 2016, 05:47:16 am
That will work. I would rather connect the wiper to the 1625 grid.
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: kagliostro on March 18, 2016, 06:14:01 am
Thanks Steve

but connecting the wiper to the grid of the 1625 diden't affect the correct leak value for the 1625 on rotating the shaft ?

Franco
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: sluckey on March 18, 2016, 06:36:59 am
Sure it does. You don't want to EXCEED the MAXIMUM resistance of 500K. There is no MINIMUM resistance specification. Even zero ohms is valid.

This is not a grid leak bias circuit. The grid simply needs to be held at zero volts. So, 0Ω, or 100KΩ, or 500KΩ all accomplish that goal. Just don't exceed 500K max spec.

Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: Lauri on March 18, 2016, 07:18:26 am
If you wire the potentiometer that way it will change the AC load of the 6SL7 depending on how much you have turned up the volume.
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: kagliostro on March 18, 2016, 07:58:17 am
Many thanks Steve & Lauri

Now the situation is much more clear on my mind

Franco
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: shooter on March 18, 2016, 08:13:52 am
Quote
Just don't exceed 500K max spec
What happens, or could happen if this is exceeded?  I just do it, but never grasped the why :dontknow:
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: Lauri on March 18, 2016, 09:44:15 am
Quote
What happens, or could happen if this is exceeded? 

Worst case scenario is that reverse grid current starts biasing the tube hotter, causes thermal run away and destroys the tube.
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: tubeswell on March 18, 2016, 04:05:19 pm
The original Marshall 18Wer schematic has the vol control into the PI input grid set up this way FWIW


http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/18w.gif (http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/18w.gif)

Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: kagliostro on March 18, 2016, 04:22:05 pm
Thanks Tubeswell

That is interesting

we never invented anything, someone has always preceded us

May be there the use of a double pot is studied as to don't affect the previous stage load


(http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/18w.gif)

Franco
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: sluckey on March 18, 2016, 05:25:56 pm
Quote
May be there the use of a double pot is studied as to don't affect the previous stage load
That's not a double pot. It's two separate pots. The one on the left is a tone pot. The one on the right is the volume pot.
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: kagliostro on March 18, 2016, 06:18:20 pm
Oh, I see


Franco
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: xm52 on March 18, 2016, 06:19:40 pm
It's interesting to look at a GE 6L6GC data sheet, they specify under Maximum Ratings, Grid No 1 circuit resistance of 100K for fixed bias, 500K for cathode bias for both pentode and triode connection.


A lot of designs seem to get away with exceeding that 100K maximum.


I suppose one has to determine why they set that maximum. Is it to simply to ensure a long service life.



Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: PRR on March 18, 2016, 08:59:26 pm
> A lot of designs seem to get away with exceeding that 100K maximum.

100K is a cover-our-butt spec. 99% of Golden-Age tubes would be fine with 101K even (obviously) 220K. But the tube makers did not want a bad day in the factory to cause a rush of field failures and complaints.

Additionally: in Guitar Amps we often bias the tube somewhat below maximum dissipation. That gives a little leeway for grid-leakage before things go seriously wrong.

Finally: Tube stage amps fail. Abuse, cheap-brand tubes, playing louder than the designer ever considered. Users know how to replace tubes. A dead amplifier doesn't kill anybody. This isn't rocket science. (Note that the B-52 bomber used tubes into the 1990s; that's where you don't dare cheat the specs.)
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: Fresh_Start on March 19, 2016, 08:20:01 am
The original Marshall 18Wer schematic has the vol control into the PI input grid set up this way FWIW

http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/18w.gif (http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/18w.gif)


The Tremolo channel does. In fact, it looks just like a 5E3. However, the other channel has a "normal" volume pot. Maybe there was some reason the PI needs to see a constant resistance up front for the Tremolo channel. It's not the tone control because Tweed Champs etc. also have normal volume pot arrangements.

Cheers,
Chip
Title: Re: Grid Leak and Volume Control -- Question about
Post by: sluckey on March 19, 2016, 08:28:02 am
Don't go by that 18 watt schematic! It has errors, especially with how the trem channel volume pot connects to the LTP PI. The pot is wired wrong and there is a missing coupling cap. These errors have been verified by reverse engineering an original 1974 circuit. Here's the corrected schematic from the same website...

     http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/18wr.gif (http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/18wr.gif)