Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum
Other Stuff => Other Topics => Topic started by: silverfox on July 31, 2019, 04:09:12 pm
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May need to move this topic.
PRR schematic markup got me to wondering- Which theory is being used here: Hole flow or electron flow. By the looks of things, must be positive charge flow he's tracking. Otherwise, the arrows should point towards plus illustrating electron flow.
I don't think it makes any difference in this case. Would it make a difference in a SS amp?
silverfox.
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can't speak for PRR, In the Navy we lern't electrons flow - to +
went to college lern't holes flow + to -
went to 3000hrs of tech schools and nobody cared which way they flowed as long as you could measure it with a fluke, see it on a scope, or spectrum analyzer :icon_biggrin:
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Where do you see electrons? Nowhere.
Inside a vacuum tube, yes, the electrons move cathode to anode. Nevertheless, all the old tube men I know drew *current* top to bottom (+ to -).
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Where do you see electrons? Nowhere.
Inside a vacuum tube, yes, the electrons move cathode to anode. . . . (+ to -).
The + must move in the other direction also, inside the vacuum tube. Theoretically, and my math is poor, theoretically the math flips. Problem solved?
silverfox.
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Problem solved
the folk that play with quarks n multi-verses might wanta say :icon_biggrin:
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https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circuits/Lesson-2/Electric-Current (https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/circuits/Lesson-2/Electric-Current)
Conventional Current Direction. . . Ben Franklin, who conducted extensive scientific studies in both static and current electricity, envisioned positive charges as the carriers of charge. As such, an early convention for the direction of an electric current was established to be in the direction that positive charges would move. The convention has stuck and is still used today. The direction of an electric current is by convention the direction in which a positive charge would move. Thus, the current in the external circuit is directed away from the positive terminal and toward the negative terminal of the battery. Electrons would actually move through the wires in the opposite direction. Knowing that the actual charge carriers in wires are negatively charged electrons may make this convention seem a bit odd and outdated. Nonetheless, it is the convention that is used worldwide and one that a student of physics can easily become accustomed to. :l2:
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I believe the origin is "electron flow" according to the post, not current flow
Neither the electrons nor the holes are responsible for doing the work, it's simply the flow of charge that does the work. The direction of the flow of charge, the electrons, or the conventional current, is not relevant to the amount of work that is being done.
If one Coulomb of electrons travels from one terminal to another, and the second terminal has a voltage that is 5V higher than the first, then we have -1C of going across -5V of voltage, giving (-1C)(-5v), or 5J, of work. The electrons do work by being negative charge going across a negative voltage difference.
As something that's somewhat analogous, if you release a helium balloon (negative weight), it will float upwards, and the work done will be the weight of the balloon times the signed change in height. Both the weight and the displacement will be negative, giving a positive amount of work done by the balloon.
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/387246/so-which-direction-do-electrons-really-flow
It's just like any human endeavor where 10 ppl decide "what's best, needed" while 2 ppl just shake their heads and actually DO work :icon_biggrin:
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There you go with that crazy negative number stuff again! :l2:
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I've learned that basketball was once played with bottomless bushel baskets. Good grief, how deep is a bottomless bushel basket?!? Likely deep enough to hold a whole bunch of negative apples.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.” (Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil. Aphorism 146)
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:laugh:
negative numbers, positive, complex, none of it matters except to calculate WORK, otherwise I can't get paid :icon_biggrin:
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If we fail to be vigilant, we may find that the same miracles which define our greatness as a species, will one day, spell our doom. (The Outer Limits, Season 6, Episode 21)
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When I eat, it is the food that is scared - Ron Swanson
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I say.....
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That made me wanna fire up the kt88!!
have to be Friday :sad2:
"You can be on the right track and still get hit by a train!"
A.E. Neumann :icon_biggrin:
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Where do you see electrons? Nowhere.
To really understand electricity, we have to consider more than just electrons. For example, inside a battery, we have both negative ions (cations) and positive ions (anions). And, when you draw current from the battery, they flow in opposite directions through the electrolyte inside the battery. Which one moves in the same direction as the electric charge? The positive ones, the anions. And, of course, the cations move in the opposite direction to the flow of charge, that's simple algebra. This happens inside your car battery every time you crank the starter...hardly an exotic situation.
Now let's take our gaze off our electronic workbench and look up at the ceiling. What's happening inside your old-fashioned fluorescent light? Once again, there are both positive and negative ions inside, flowing in opposite directions at any given instant. Which way does the current flow? The same way as the positive ions.
And what about current flow from an arc-welder? Inside the arc, it's hot enough to tear some electrons off atoms, so once again we end up with both positive ions and negative charges (electrons) that are free to move. Once again, they move in opposite directions. One of them (the positive ions) is heavier, has more momentum, and so hits its target harder. And that in turn changes how the weld forms, and how it behaves.
(This takes some math to work out: both positive and negative ions gain the same amount of energy moving through the arc, but the heavier ones gain more momentum. Weird, but true.)
Your average welder knows nothing of this - nothing of the microscopic theory of electric current flow in matter - but she knows about "straight" and "reverse" polarity, and what that means for the quality of the welds she makes: ( https://www.weldingschool.com/blog/welding/understanding-welding-current-and-polarity/ )
Looking a little further up, consider the sun, or any other star. The atmosphere is so hot, it's plasma, the fourth state of matter; atoms have been ripped apart by the heat into free electrons, free protons (and free neutrons, too.) When current flows through the sun's atmosphere, the protons are going one way, the electrons, the opposite way. Which way does the current flow? Same as the protons.
Inside a metal, yes, it's the electrons that move. But the physics of current flow isn't restricted just to current flow in metals. The whole point of physics is to have a single explanation that covers every possible case in the entire universe, or at least, nearly every possible case. And that includes current flow inside your car battery, inside your fluorescent light bulb, inside the arc of your arc-welder, in the atmosphere of a star, in the molten iron core of our planet, et cetera. And in many of those cases, we have to deal with moving charges that are positive, and also with moving charges that are negative. Both matter, both contribute to current flow, both need to be accounted for.
Nevertheless, all the old tube men I know drew *current* top to bottom (+ to -).
Exactly! The same direction in which positive charges would go, if there had been any positive charges. This isn't some crackpot scheme, but basic mathematics: if I start with $100 in bank A, and $100 in bank B, and then I take +1 dollar from bank A and deposit it in bank B, in which direction did the money flow? Well, I now have $99 in bank A, and $101 in bank B, so obviously the money flowed in the same direction as the +1$ did: current flows in the same direction as the positive charges.
And what if I took $(-1) from bank B, and deposited it in bank A? I added a negative $1 to my money in bank A, so I now have $99 in bank A. I removed a negative dollar from bank B, which any accountant will tell you is the same as adding a positive dollar, so I now have $101 in bank B.
So once again, the money flowed from bank A to bank B - in the opposite direction to the direction in which the $(-1) went. Money flows in the opposite direction to negative dollar bills; charge flows in the opposite direction to negative charges! Simple!
-Gnobuddy
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I identify as a female welder with my ion your bank accounts. How much money did each start and end with?
ALL currents? I also have my ion the Gulf Stream. That's current. What's the charge?
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...in the molten iron core of our planet
There is no molten iron-nickel core of our planet. Instead, there is a nuclear reactor at our core. All of the rocky planets have/had a nuclear reactor at their core. The idea that gravity creates such high pressures in the core that iron and nickel are molten is something akin to a perpetual motion machine. Doggedly clinging to the iron-nickel theory is just as lame as clinging to conventional current or to a non-metric measurement system.
Nuclear reactors run out of fuel at some point and they go out with a bang. Nuclear reactors referred to as "stars" go out with a rather impressive bang. The much smaller reactors in our planets go out with a much smaller bang and they manifest themselves in the form of increased volcanism. Mercury is the smallest rocky planet and it had the smallest reactor with the least fuel, so it went out with a bang a long time ago. Mars is larger and it ran out of fuel relatively recently and the bang created that volcano that is the size of the United States.
Earth and Venus are larger still and about the same size as each other. Venus is going out with a bang right now. It has a nuclear reactor that is larger than those of Mercury and Mars so that Venus is going out with a bigger bang than those planets. Guess what's going to happen to Earth.
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I made a great living fixing complex systems designed using complex mathematics
I’m enjoying the arm-chair study of lasers smacking a particle and “seeing/measuring” a sympathetic response in a particle across the room.
I still hold out HOPE that Peter isn’t the only one that can “defy” physics :icon_biggrin:
At the end of day though I still “accept” that E(nergy) cannot be created, only manipulated with signs blockin’ out the scenery, breakin’ my mind :cussing:
Late night reads for the active n fertile mind;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_magnetic_energy_storage
To 2Deafs point;
http://www.math.harvard.edu/archive/21a_fall_05/supplements/perpetuum.pdf
https://ws680.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=902421
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Now for the George Noory segment... This explains all! :icon_biggrin:
Jim
http://phils.com.au/moray.htm
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How much money did each start and end with?
I'm just thinking it would be nice to have enough money to have $100 in each of two bank accounts. Our woman welder is doing well for herself. :icon_biggrin:
-Gnobuddy
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George Noory segment
:laugh:
I like 'ol Sailors :icon_biggrin:
got me to thinkin 'bout way-back engineering using spooky math, they tried to build a REALLY tall tower......... the upside, translators get paid pretty well! :icon_biggrin: