Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum

Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: labb on May 18, 2020, 04:48:54 pm

Title: first filter cap location
Post by: labb on May 18, 2020, 04:48:54 pm
For the Fender AB763 circuit why did Fender put the first filter cap before the standby switch? ie: rectifier, cap then switch.
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: 66Strat on May 18, 2020, 05:19:15 pm
To mitigate the risk of hot switching.
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: Leevi on May 18, 2020, 11:05:49 pm
Maybe because the first filter cap is all the time fully charged and the amp is ready to operate.
/Leevi




Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: Willabe on May 18, 2020, 11:52:33 pm
To take some of the stress off the rectifier tube from inrush current when you turn on the amp.

The 1st cap/stacked caps charge up when you turn the amp on, but leave the stand by off. Then when you hit the stand by switch the rest of the B+ filter caps charge up.
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: Latole on May 19, 2020, 03:39:54 am
To save rectifier tube.
When you put standby switch on play position, the first filter cap are full charge and help rectifier tube from working too hard to charge other filter caps.
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: dude on May 19, 2020, 10:53:44 am
I "didn't" put the first filter before the standby, I noticed a flash from the rectifier tube almost every time I turned on standby, luckily I changed that before any issues. Flash gone, amp happy.
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: Latole on May 19, 2020, 12:43:59 pm
I "didn't" put the first filter before the standby, I noticed a flash from the rectifier tube almost every time I turned on standby, luckily I changed that before any issues. Flash gone, amp happy.

So Leo Fender make a big mistake ?
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: PRR on May 19, 2020, 11:12:59 pm
I "didn't" put the first filter before the standby, I noticed a flash from the rectifier tube almost every time I turned on standby, luckily I changed that before any issues. Flash gone, amp happy.
So Leo Fender make a big mistake ?

Leo made many mistakes.

But here Labb seems to say Fender put a cap before the switch, Dude put the cap after the switch and saw fireworks, Dude moved his cap before the switch (which is seen on AB763 schematic) and seems happy? It seems that Dude made a mistake and quickly saw the problem and solution. Or saw that Leo had been here before and got a clue.
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: Latole on May 20, 2020, 03:26:43 am
I never saw a issue with these caps before the stanby switch on many Fender amps or other brand I fix.
 
To resume ;  :dontknow:

Forum member pdf64 wrote same thing about that, Valve Wizzard too;

https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=23617.0

London Power, Kevion O'Connor write something interesting;

https://londonpower.com/standby-switch/

And DRZ ; write ; amp do no need stanby switch !

http://drzamps.com/blog-standby-switch/
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: mresistor on May 20, 2020, 08:53:38 am
O'Connor states,
The Safest Standby Switch - Bypass the standby switch internally so that it does nothing.
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: Latole on May 20, 2020, 10:03:34 am
As in almost everything, there is not just one truth or recipe.
Otherwise there would only be one type of amp, one model of guitar, one type of car, name it .....
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: dwinstonwood on May 20, 2020, 10:58:04 am
Do any of you amp experts (whom I'm trying to learn from) ever use anything like a CL-90 inrush limiter on the hot line of the power cord? I understand that these can make life easier on tube rectifiers during startup.

Thanks,
David
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: shooter on May 20, 2020, 11:06:24 am
No expert;
I figured out how NOT to use standby switches or tubes to rectify AC, never looked back  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: kagliostro on May 20, 2020, 11:17:44 am
Use a mute

same result, less controversy over its use

 :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:

Franco
Title: Re: first filter cap location
Post by: 66Strat on May 20, 2020, 01:04:05 pm
Do any of you amp experts (whom I'm trying to learn from) ever use anything like a CL-90 inrush limiter on the hot line of the power cord? I understand that these can make life easier on tube rectifiers during startup.

Thanks,
David

Inrush current at startup is not a problem with vacuum tube rectifiers, if the first capacitor "seen" by the rectifier is correctly sized according to the rectifier's specification. When the rectifier is cold, it gradually begins to flow current as the tube heats up. This allows the capacitor to charge slowly and stay within the rectifier's peak inverse current rating. It's when you switch a hot rectifier on to a discharged capacitor that problems arise. As the rectifier is already warmed up, current flows immediately to charge the capacitor. If the first capacitor that the rectifier "sees" is too big, the rectifier can fail.

I've thought about using an inrush limiter like the Ametherm MS22 2213 between the transformer secondaries and the rectifier plates as a "cheat" to use larger than spec capacitors. But I never implemented the idea. A little resistance added to the secondary winding can be just as effective, more so when switching a hot rectifier.