Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum

Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: Colas LeGrippa on July 09, 2020, 08:59:20 am

Title: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Colas LeGrippa on July 09, 2020, 08:59:20 am
Hola amigos, I m having a hard time trying to fix the f...french amplifier someone brought to me.
What would help me is finding a schematics with voltages at different points so I could eventually pinpoint the issue. All voltages seem good at first glance but something in that amp is laughing at me and I really want to take my revenge thnx


Colas
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Latole on July 09, 2020, 09:42:45 am
Is that you are looking for ?

https://robrobinette.com/AB763_Modifications.htm#AB763_Annotated_Schematic


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50094311762_02d466accf_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jjErCo)  (https://flic.kr/p/2jjErCo)
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: shooter on July 09, 2020, 09:55:10 am
did you follow the links from your other post, reply #8?

Nowadays the MI60 has also its own forum (in French) : https://www.projetg5.com/phpbb3/viewforum.php?f=11
Hope that helps.

Quote
something in that amp is laughing at me and I really want to take my revenge
yup, typical French  :icon_biggrin:



Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Colas LeGrippa on July 09, 2020, 02:41:47 pm
Sure I did shooter ! I am also a member of that forum. But I don t speak quite well fremch :laugh:
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: shooter on July 09, 2020, 04:28:57 pm
Quote
Your just jealous of french canadians
It's required to speak frauncee' otherwise you couldn't make fun of Americans  :icon_biggrin:

just turn it into a Fender and call it whatever bumper is called in French  :laugh:
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Colas LeGrippa on July 09, 2020, 08:58:19 pm
Omg I wish I could turn it into a Fender.....
Hey wait a minute,  you re giving me an idea ! Nobody will know (but you and I ) that I have modded his garbage can to that point, the important to my client is the way it sounds now, not how it was sounding before !!!!!!


Ok what model should I mod it into ?
Bassman, 2204, TopHat, name it I ll do it.
50 watter without rev. nor trem.


Yeah I think I found the right path for me to get rid of this shit  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: tubeswell on July 09, 2020, 11:16:24 pm
Hi Colas


Is this the amp?


http://www.projetg5.com/Projets/MI60/MI60_original.pdf (http://www.projetg5.com/Projets/MI60/MI60_original.pdf)
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Colas LeGrippa on July 10, 2020, 01:29:35 pm
Yes it is !


What I did up to now is :


new bias circuit with adjustment pot
result : max 60 mA @ 370V each tube


swapped El34 for known good ones


installed 1 Ohm resistors from tied 1-8 to gnd


swapped 12ax7's for good ones


disconnected temporarily the tone stack by hooking up a .047 from first preamp tube direct to the PI tube


replaced signal wires by shielded ones


replaced the 2 coupling caps from PI to power tubes


replaced the 2 grid stoppers to control grids of power tubes


re soldered half a dozen of wires between tubes sockets and pc board


measured resistance between OPT center tap and plate supply +/- 50 ohm each side


checked ground connections




Weird thing: To obtain 60mA through the tubes,
I gotta raise the control grids voltages up to -23V which is very positive according to my experience
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: shooter on July 10, 2020, 01:54:58 pm
Quote
max 60 mA @ 370V each tube

the datasheet I'm seeing appears to want 30mA per tube  :dontknow:
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Latole on July 10, 2020, 02:37:03 pm
Quote
max 60 mA @ 370V each tube

the datasheet I'm seeing appears to want 30mA per tube  :dontknow:


60 ma may damaged tubes

With 370 volts at 70 % power dissipation tube bias should be less than 47 ma .
Close to 30 ma could be better if sound is good to ears




http://www.tedweber.com/webervst/tubes1/calcbias.htm
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: tubeswell on July 10, 2020, 04:19:01 pm
Quote
max 60 mA @ 370V each tube

the datasheet I'm seeing appears to want 30mA per tube  :dontknow:


34.4mA if you add in screen current


‘Lord Valve‘ (quoted in an article on Duncan’s Amp site) suggests rating EL34s as a 20W tube- which would line up with the suggestion on that Mullard datasheet.


http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/lvbias.html (http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/lvbias.html)
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Colas LeGrippa on July 10, 2020, 07:04:53 pm
I think your calculation is too low
At 370V, an EL34 at max diss of 17.5W calls for 48 mA .  When I mentioned 60mA, that was the max the adjust. pot could deliver and was for test purpose only. I still find bizarre the so positive voltage  on the grids but I can live with it.


Anyway, I got rid of the bias issue now. Before I  put a bias pot and replaced the couplimg caps, one of the tubes was passing 0mA.
The main issue is poor sound  lack of volume and definition, and hum. I suspect  poor PCB design leading to oscillation. I already told yousomething in that amp is laughing at me .


 :cussing:
I ll try to learn more from the frenchmen in that musique industrie forum, but I have doubts they will help me. Anyway, one beer at a time (I wish I d smoke pot, but now that it s legalized, I think.I would find that boring....)


Thnx guys

.
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: DummyLoad on July 10, 2020, 07:50:11 pm
you need to drink french wine before working on frog crap. j/k   :icon_biggrin:

what's bugging me is why the B+ is 70V lower than it should be... IF that PT is the original, it should be ~340VAC to a FWB - what do you measure for AC at the bridge AC terminals?

if that PS is sucking off 70V +/- then you likely have some main filters that need replacing.



--pete
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Colas LeGrippa on July 10, 2020, 09:36:49 pm
I only drink ultra cold german blonde beer when it s hot
like today: 80 deg or more. In winter I dont drink but water. French wine contains sulfites that make me feel bad.
(my life is so boring ...) :laugh:


Explanation : the power tranny had been replaced in the past, Mr. Sherlock Holmes.


Anyway, with 450 or 350V, this amp should work fine.
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Colas LeGrippa on July 10, 2020, 09:48:17 pm
Good point Pete, tomorrow I will measure the AC voltage at the pt out. That voltage X 1.4 should be read in DC at the rectifier bridge. I ll do whatever has to be done with the power caps acordingly.


Colas






Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: shooter on July 11, 2020, 07:55:04 am
Quote
I think.I would find that boring....)
ah, it's fun, get a lawn chair, some ledZepplin, good buzz, wear underwear only wave to the good people  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Typical voltages in a PP amp
Post by: Colas LeGrippa on July 11, 2020, 11:04:49 am
My brain can t  support drugs, my lungs smoke
and my stomach too much alcohol. I tried LSD when teenager but my anxiety was multiplied by 10 .
Good music,  motorbike ride in the nature , guitar and songs composing( right word? the frog in me doesn t know :laugh: )   


are all it takes !!!