Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum
Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: Champ_49 on July 17, 2020, 01:19:34 am
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Hi all
Thought I'd post my 5E3 build log. Mainly. for my own reference. This is my second one. I just love the sound of this amp. Going to try now with a different grounding layout and go with metal films and mallory caps. Also using teflon wire.
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20AWG would have been fine. Guess what size the OT wires will probably be?
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I'm wondering why you are having so much trouble soldering - you mention twice not getting the solder to flow/stick. I find that I do no need to sand/clean like you describe. Technique? The solder you are using? I see from the label that your solder has lower flux% than many, such as Kester 44.
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20AWG would have been fine. Guess what size the OT wires will probably be?
Yup. True. There was an amp tech i knew that recommended to use some heavier gauge for speaker outs so i just got in the "habit" of using some heavier guages when i can.
Btw what guage do you use between the input jacks
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22
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Those have been sitting in a bin for a looooong time!
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Those have been sitting in a bin for a looooong time!
Yup. Exactly. Finally someone bought em (me). Maybe I got some NOS vintage jacks for a good price ;) I guess these longer bushing jacks aren't that popular. I got these because the bushing will go through two washers, the chassis plus an additional faceplate.
The got the washers to isolate the jacks from ground.
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Yes I see - special multi-color jacks :laugh: I guess you would need to clean them up pretty good. I was thinking of using some thick black plexiglas for a faceplate - I guess those would be the ticket for that.
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Probably too late now, but after shining up those jacks I would put a dab of flux on each solder lug and tin them lightly. Then you can solder wires, etc. to the lugs even easier than soldering to new shiny jacks.
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Sluckey, when working on old amps, its the tube sockets that sometimes give me that problem. I usually try to get in there with a little Dremel wire brush after I've removed the old leads and solder. it would seem tinning them like you just suggested would be a help?
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Yes I see - special multi-color jacks :laugh: I guess you would need to clean them up pretty good. I was thinking of using some thick black plexiglas for a faceplate - I guess those would be the ticket for that.
I actually like the hue. Gives it that old vintage vibe. But I need an amp that works.
:laugh:
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Probably too late now, but after shining up those jacks I would put a dab of flux on each solder lug and tin them lightly. Then you can solder wires, etc. to the lugs even easier than soldering to new shiny jacks.
I think I will redo these. Just because i realized the leads that connect the jacks may be too thin. I used the small tiny leads from the some half watt resistors. I know it may not be an issue in terms of sound but a bit worried mechanically. After repetitive plug ins and outs the tiny solid cores may break if and when the jacks come loose. I have a full bottle of flux paste waiting for me :)
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Sluckey, when working on old amps, its the tube sockets that sometimes give me that problem. I usually try to get in there with a little Dremel wire brush after I've removed the old leads and solder. it would seem tinning them like you just suggested would be a help?
I usually use the Belton tubes. Never had a problem soldering to those. Which ones do you use Mccowen?
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I'm referring to soldering to old sockets when I'm repairing/rebuilding old amps. Many of those are true point to point, so I'm removing leads from sockets, cleaning them up and soldering in new leads. For new builds I use Beltons or those ceramic ones that Doug sells.
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Oh and I also just used some of those Celatex octal sockets - seem fine. No problem soldering to any of the new ones - just the old ones after I've tortured them getting the old leads off!
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I'm referring to soldering to old sockets when I'm repairing/rebuilding old amps. Many of those are true point to point, so I'm removing leads from sockets, cleaning them up and soldering in new leads. For new builds I use Beltons or those ceramic ones that Doug sells.
Gotcha.
For the jacks i wrapped 400 grit sandpaper around a nail filer and used that. I will need to buy some Popsicles today for a nice refreshment :) Maybe a chopstick would work too.
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Oh and I also just used some of those Celatex octal sockets - seem fine. No problem soldering to any of the new ones - just the old ones after I've tortured them getting the old leads off!
Getting leads off can be a pain especially with the stranded wire. I usually use a solder braid to suck as much solder off first. Then heat it up a bit and wiggle the lead until it comes loose from the remaining solder. Then just pull it out in one piece.
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I typically do the same/similar - get rid of as much solder as possible first. But with amps from the 40s/50s the leads on resisters and caps were much heavier gauge than used today, so it can be a struggle to unwrap the leads from the socket tabs. I often try to carefully snip part of the lead wrap to help free them.
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I typically do the same/similar - get rid of as much solder as possible first. But with amps from the 40s/50s the leads on resisters and caps were much heavier gauge than used today, so it can be a struggle to unwrap the leads from the socket tabs. I often try to carefully snip part of the lead wrap to help free them.
Yup. Especially with a good mechanical wrap on heavier gauge solid core wire its hard to take it out. With strands its just a pain too when there are small pieces of the wire all over the place but with those i manage to pull it out slowly since the strands are thin and spread out. I also snip it carefully after almost all the solder is off. Then i just take it out in pieces. But yeah you gotta be careful not to snip parts of the socket tab. For solid core as long as i get a part of the lead a bit far from the tab then i snip it right there.
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But yeah you gotta be careful not to snip parts of the socket tab.
Yup done that more than once. That's when I started wearing my reading glasses to work on amps. :laugh:
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Mineral spirits is very good at cleaning up rosin. Much better than alcohol.
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Mineral spirits is very good at cleaning up rosin. Much better than alcohol.
Thanks Sluckey. I will try that. It wasn't easy using the alcohol to clean it.
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looking good!
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looking good!
Thank you Vampwizard!
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I am trying something different. Isolating the pots from the chassis by using the shoulder bushings.
Totally wasted effort.
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Totally wasted effort
Don't sugar coat it like that kid.
Seriously though, it seems like there has been a lot of "overreach" lately on build techniques. Maybe it's Covid fatigue?
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I am trying something different. Isolating the pots from the chassis by using the shoulder bushings.
Totally wasted effort.
Was ready for someone to say this. Why? Have you tried it?
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Don't have to try it. It's pure nonsense. Kinda like "The leads are not straight but bent at two places to allow slight relief when components expand and contract due to heat." or your low gain/sustain PEC pots. Sorry buddy. I ain't buying any of it. I spoke up hoping to prevent anyone else reading this from believing it.
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Don't have to try it. It's pure nonsense. Kinda like "The leads are not straight but bent at two places to allow slight relief when components expand and contract due to heat." or your low gain/sustain PEC pots. Sorry buddy. I ain't buying any of it. I spoke up hoping to prevent anyone else reading this from believing it.
Hey man. No need to get worked up about it calling it nonense. A builder can build however way he wants. This is based on what ive read and i am just trying it. One ground point to the chassis for the circuit. Not nonsense because you did not take the time to build it like this yourself. Just like a star ground with everything at one point will introduce random grounding. A brass plate will introduce random grounding.
I have tried the pec pots for the gain pot on me last two builds and yes there was less gain. I swapped out the alpha and ab'd it several times. That is why i said anomaly. It doesnt make sense which is why I ab'd it to believe it, but yeah it did my friend. Unless you have tried it yourself don't go around saying its nonsense. Vague statements without trying it yourself. Thats nonsense and ignorant. Thanks for your answer but no thanks. I know you are a moderator and everyone knows you here but I really just came here to show my build and keep a journal for myself. Did no post here to get negative comments to "call me out". I am stating exactly what i observed.
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It doesnt make sense
Then it's nonsense. Think about it.
I remember you discussion "Am done with PEC for good." from 2015. Didn't make sense then either. But that's most likely because you didn't know what gain is. It's all opinion. My opinion is based on in-depth edcuation/training and 45 years career working with sophisticated electronics. The three issues I called you on are based on internet BS. You wasted a lot of effort and time and now I'm doing the same by continuing this discussion, so I'll just shut up.
Whether you appreciate my viewpoint or not, I felt I needed to get it out there. Maybe someone else will.
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It doesnt make sense
Then it's nonsense. Think about it.
I remember you discussion "Am done with PEC for good." from 2015. Didn't make sense then either. But that's most likely because you didn't know what gain is. It's all opinion. My opinion is based on in-depth edcuation/training and 45 years career working with sophisticated electronics. The three issues I called you on are based on internet BS. You wasted a lot of effort and time and now I'm doing the same by continuing this discussion, so I'll just shut up.
Whether you appreciate my viewpoint or not, I felt I needed to get it out there. Maybe someone else will.
My observation was not nonsense. Just stating what i observed. In fact i wish it was nonsense. I talked with you about it before. Seemed a bit more reasonable then. For someone to call me out based on what i observed so others wont believe it..
But yeah.. the pots don't ground the circuit so it was some extra work. But hey I had some time on my hands so why not ;)
For the input jacks. I would say they do ground the circuit at multiple points so I used shoulder washers on those.
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Whether you appreciate my viewpoint or not, I felt I needed to get it out there. Maybe someone else will.
I do, and I'm sure many others do. I've built and rebuilt a lot of amps, but I keep learning things from Sluckey, PRR, Tubenit, and the other moderators. The great thing about internet forums is that they allow anyone to post anything. It's also a challenging thing. As far as I'm concerned its the moderators' job to challenge information that they believe to misleading, nonsensical, or in some cases wrong (and to delete political commentary from people like me!) As you said Champ, you can build how you want, but you shouldn't expect the moderators to not do their jobs. Sometimes Sluckey is pretty direct. But take a look at how many times he has patiently walked novices through a project step-by-step. He's earned the right.
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Whether you appreciate my viewpoint or not, I felt I needed to get it out there. Maybe someone else will.
I do, and I'm sure many others do. I've built and rebuilt a lot of amps, but I keep learning things from Sluckey, PRR, Tubenit, and the other moderators. The great thing about internet forums is that they allow anyone to post anything. It's also a challenging thing. As far as I'm concerned its the moderators' job to challenge information that they believe to misleading, nonsensical, or in some cases wrong (and to delete political commentary from people like me!) As you said Champ, you can build how you want, but you shouldn't expect the moderators to not do their jobs. Sometimes Sluckey is pretty direct. But take a look at how many times he has patiently walked novices through a project step-by-step. He's earned the right.
I will keep bullding my amp. I am having a blast as i always am building them. In fact i have been on this forum and sluckey has helped me as well when i started. Yup the shoulder bushings on the pots was overkill and yeah it wont make a difference but i dont regret it. It was still fun while i did it ;)
As for the pec pots I was stating what i observed and so have others about the pec pots. This was on a jcm800 build awhile back in which i added an extra gain stage. With that kind of amp it is noticeable. On the stock jcm800 build i noticed it as well.
It just didn't sit well with me to say it was my imagination or nonsense when in fact i talked about this on a whole thread awhile back and have read this on other forums from other builders. Like I stated.. an anomoly which i couldn't explain. Try this on a stock jcm800 as a gain knob and then you can make your own conclusions. I really wanted to know what was going on awhile back and wished someone tried what i tried.
I am also weary of "snake oil". I don't use sozo caps thinking they will make the difference and magically make my amp sound amazing. I use regular mallory or orange drops. Its the circuit design, layout, soldering, proper lead dress, etc that really make the difference.
I bent the leads like I did because the 5e3 can get quite hot so it allows for expansion and on contraction relief as i read on here
Yeah it might be overkill but it made sense to me.
https://robrobinette.com/How_To_Build_a_Tube_Amp.htm
If i am not welcome here I can gladly leave or get kicked out. and build it alone and have fun building it.. it is for me still a hobby..without the extra judgements and accusations of being misleading. Again what sluckey stated are opinions/viewpoints not facts. And everyone is entitled to it. But calling out someone else as misleading is a bit too much. If its dangerous yeah call it out.
This is one reason initially i was asking myself if i should display my work on a forum or not.
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If i am not welcome here I can gladly leave and build it alone and have fun building it.. it is for me still a hobby..without the extra judgements and accusations of being misleading. This is one reason initially i was asking myself if i should display my work on a forum or not.
I suspect you are very welcome here - I and others enjoy reading about your projects. But I also expect honest feedback on what I post. Just recently I was informed that the way I handled re-soldering eyelets when replacing components on a Fender style eyelet board was "bad practice." That person was not telling me what to do, just expressing an opinion. I can do with it what I want.
I say - carry on as you see fit.
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If i am not welcome here I can gladly leave and build it alone and have fun building it.. it is for me still a hobby..without the extra judgements and accusations of being misleading. This is one reason initially i was asking myself if i should display my work on a forum or not.
I suspect you are very welcome here - I and others enjoy reading about your projects. But I also expect honest feedback on what I post. Just recently I was informed that the way I handled re-soldering eyelets when replacing components on a Fender style eyelet board was "bad practice." That person was not telling me what to do, just expressing an opinion. I can do with it what I want.
I say - carry on as you see fit.
Thanks Mccowen. Yeah you're right. I do think honest feedback is very helpful. And in fact welcome and appreciate it as it could help avoid real headaches later. But.. its always helpful to know why. Not just "this is the way you do it or not do it". A basic explanation as to why anybody has an opinion or viewpoint would be more helpful to someone else than just saying this is wrong. For example the bending of the leads at two points makes sense to me. As i have stated why this makes sense to me. If it doesn't make sense to you and you want to call it out, call it out but with an explanation and to why it doesnt work. Otherwise best not to call it out. Blank statements like "nonsense" with no explanation can be misleading as well causing confusion to the reader and detract away from a very viable method.
I was criticized alot when i first started building. Showed it to a very reputable amp tech where i live in Canada and he ripped me pretty bad. So bad with absolutely no sugar coating. But i really cleaned up on soldering properly and make sure all leads are mechanically connected as well as proper guage wires to use etc.. from that experience i learned alot and that helped me the most if anything. Initially he was pissed at how bad my build was but eventually walked me through the build. I've had my fair share of criticism and learned from that more than anything.
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Champ_49, I want to apologize for my responses above. To just say "totally wasted effort" was not polite. I could have chosen my words more carefully and offered a reason for my opinion. And then to bring up the other issues I had with what you said about bending leads and low gain pots was uncalled for. I am sorry.
I'd like to try to explain my view. I consider insulating the pots from chassis a bad idea. When the pots are connected to chassis the pot body acts as a shield around the resistor element. Kinda like using shielded cable for sensitive areas. When you remove that ground connection to the pot body, you lose that shield, and the pot body can now act as an antennae to allow all kinds of radiated electrical interference a chance to get to your signal that's inside the pot. And if you are fond of metal knobs (as I am) it's even worse because when you touch the knob, all that radiated electrical interference that your body picks up is also fed to the pot body. The chance of this stuff coupling into your signal through the pot body is increased. Now this may or may not be an issue, but when near fluorescent lighting there is a LOT of crap in the air. So, why tempt Murphy? Ground the pot body to provide the shield.
As for putting relief bends in component leads, I'm all for that. NASA required stress relief bends when mounting components. They even have a lengthy discussion about it in their soldering manual. But the stress relief bends are required to prevent component or solder connection failure due to mechanical stress. It's not done to protect against component expansion/compression due to heat. If you got that kind of heat inside an amp you need to find out why.
As for PEC pots having lower gain, you say yes, I say no. We had that discussion 5 years ago. We disagree. That's OK.
I usually speak in a very plain, to the point manner. And that is often hurtful to people. I'll work on my manners.
Peace... Steve
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Champ_49, I want to apologize for my responses above. To just say "totally wasted effort" was not polite. I could have chosen my words more carefully and offered a reason for my opinion. And then to bring up the other issues I had with what you said about bending leads and low gain pots was uncalled for. I am sorry.
I'd like to try to explain my view. I consider insulating the pots from chassis a bad idea. When the pots are connected to chassis the pot body acts as a shield around the resistor element. Kinda like using shielded cable for sensitive areas. When you remove that ground connection to the pot body, you lose that shield, and the pot body can now act as an antennae to allow all kinds of radiated electrical interference a chance to get to your signal that's inside the pot. And if you are fond of metal knobs (as I am) it's even worse because when you touch the knob, all that radiated electrical interference that your body picks up is also fed to the pot body. The chance of this stuff coupling into your signal through the pot body is increased. Now this may or may not be an issue, but when near fluorescent lighting there is a LOT of crap in the air. So, why tempt Murphy? Ground the pot body to provide the shield.
As for putting relief bends in component leads, I'm all for that. NASA required stress relief bends when mounting components. They even have a lengthy discussion about it in their soldering manual. But the stress relief bends are required to prevent component or solder connection failure due to mechanical stress. It's not done to protect against component expansion/compression due to heat. If you got that kind of heat inside an amp you need to find out why.
As for PEC pots having lower gain, you say yes, I say no. We had that discussion 5 years ago. We disagree. That's OK.
I usually speak in a very plain, to the point manner. And that is often hurtful to people. I'll work on my manners.
Peace... Steve
Thank you Sluckey. I apologize as well for my manner in tone. I just wanted an explanation. That was all. And the explanation you gave me above was very helpful and makes alot of sense now. I will in fact take the shoulder insulation off the pots now as how you explained it makes total sense now and. And thank you for pointing that out as it will prevent headaches later on down the road. Also about the leads being bent at two places was mentioned in robinette's site and i was just basing it on what he said about temperature cycles that could cause the contraction and expansion of components.
For me it was not the inside of the amp that got hot but i put it in cabinet and closed the power tubes in so i guess the heat did not find a way to escape and the chassis got hot after long hours of playing.
As for the PEC pots yes lets just agree to disagree. :)
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If anyone wants some additional info on this here are a couple of links i found which may or may not but helpful and might be a bit overkill for an amp. But still informative.
https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/601%20General%20Requirements.html
https://robrobinette.com/How_To_Build_a_Tube_Amp.htm
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When the pots are connected to chassis the pot body acts as a shield around the resistor element
And to an earlier point - look at that, I just learned something new again! That's what makes this forum so valuable.
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I dug 70 feet of hard rooty clay to replace my sewer line. It had been ripped-apart, probably by thermal stresses. Maine has weeks near zero F and a day over 90F, every year. That's over an inch of thermal change. If you lay plastic pipe dead-straight it will find a place to break. The official guideline is to zig-zag a couple inches at every 10 foot joint.
I'm dubious about resistors and turrets being SO stiff and straight that reasonable temperature could pull them apart. Un-reasonable temperature is bad even before thermal strain.
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I dug 70 feet of hard rooty clay to replace my sewer line. It had been ripped-apart, probably by thermal stresses. Maine has weeks near zero F and a day over 90F, every year. That's over an inch of thermal change. If you lay plastic pipe dead-straight it will find a place to break. The official guideline is to zig-zag a couple inches at every 10 foot joint.
I'm dubious about resistors and turrets being SO stiff and straight that reasonable temperature could pull them apart. Un-reasonable temperature is bad even before thermal strain.
Well I like to add some margin of error for my builds when possible. Although it could be overkill for some. It doesnt hurt. Now if those bent leads could cause issues then I wouldn't. If something were in fact wired wrong and caused excessive heat then that extra bend could save me from replacing them.
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Probably too late now, but after shining up those jacks I would put a dab of flux on each solder lug and tin them lightly. Then you can solder wires, etc. to the lugs even easier than soldering to new shiny jacks.
Sluckey thanks for that tip. I missed that message since was a bit over my head. That would definitely help and I will try that next time.
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Another strangr anomoly with these pots is that they in fact reduce gain on my higher gain amps. I tried this several times and they do.
what a load of pure BS. NOT fact.
prove it.
--pete
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Another strangr anomoly with these pots is that they in fact reduce gain on my higher gain amps. I tried this several times and they do.
what a load of pure BS. NOT fact.
prove it.
--pete
I did not say it was fact. The fact is that is what i observed. Why does that make you so angry?
I would like to know if anyone else had tried this and noticed anything..would like to know too it doesn't make sense. I am using these pots on my build and I like how they are built and would like to use them.. I think we are all old enough to discuss things in a polite way by now.
Wow. You cant even state an observation here without someone getting upset or offended. Sad man.
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you assume i'm angry. not so. just mildly amused. :icon_biggrin:
--pete
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you assume i'm angry. not so. just mildly amused. :icon_biggrin:
--pete
Misunderstanding then. Hard to tell with text. But can't picture you calling my observation bs with an amused look. You do sound upset or offended though for whatever reason. No offense.
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ah the world of text without context :laugh:
I would love a side-by-side scope shot on the pot/gain thing though. even easier would be a slow roll video of a meter as you dial the different pots real slow. A defective part might cause unwanted "change"
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Here's all the proof you guys need...
https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=19402.msg200627#msg200627
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ah the world of text without context :laugh:
I would love a side-by-side scope shot on the pot/gain thing though. even easier would be a slow roll video of a meter as you dial the different pots real slow. A defective part might cause unwanted "change"
Yes. I wish i could do that. Unfortunately i already built my amp and don't want to go in and take it apart now.
I am putting this more in layman's terms without getting too much into technicality because thats not the point.
Simply put..
PEC pot with preamp volume of jcm800 all the way up with all other being constant is like the alpha pot at 6 or 7. That's all.
Mind you i did try this with different pec pots on two seperate builds. So i don't think all those pec pots were defective.
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Don't have to try it. It's pure nonsense. Kinda like "The leads are not straight but bent at two places to allow slight relief when components expand and contract due to heat." or your low gain/sustain PEC pots. Sorry buddy. I ain't buying any of it. I spoke up hoping to prevent anyone else reading this from believing it.
Thanks for this, Sluckey. A bit abrupt in the messaging, but it's the kind of information that should be recorded for the benefit of other new, future builders. This kind of nonesense gets repeated over and over and becomes gospel if not challenged.
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Don't have to try it. It's pure nonsense. Kinda like "The leads are not straight but bent at two places to allow slight relief when components expand and contract due to heat." or your low gain/sustain PEC pots. Sorry buddy. I ain't buying any of it. I spoke up hoping to prevent anyone else reading this from believing it.
Thanks for this, Sluckey. A bit abrupt in the messaging, but it's the kind of information that should be recorded for the benefit of other new, future builders. This kind of nonesense gets repeated over and over and becomes gospel if not challenged.
Sorry. A bit "abrupt" in my messaging as well. It makes no difference to me. But unless you have tried it then maybe you can say its nonsense. I still stand by what i observed. Also i said it before and i will say it again but a fact was not stated. Merely an observation. What I observed is what I observed. It was not stated as fact. It was in fact what i observed. You can say its bs for pointing it out but it will maybe help future builders as well to properly diagnose an anomoly instead of just brushing it aside and calling it nonsense. Your way of just accepting what someone said as nonsense is ignorant. Unless someone proves it otherwise which i would be happy to know i still stand by what i OBSERVED. It is an anomoly and that is why i was hoping someone could try it and see. Unfortunately it sounds like everyone has ganged up on one observation i made and somehow it turned into some kind of witch hunt. Which is unfortunately sad.
About the leads. Its in the Nasa documents. Read the whole post before you just go around spouting your ignorance.
Sluckey and I settled this awhile ago. We agreed to disagree on some points and the explanation given to me was sufficient and well explained. As for you and the other guy(s)..nothing. Just ignorance.
Hopefully i can post this so others can stand up against witch hunters like you and the other guy(s). Just for making an observation shouldn't be hard for people. Or.. maybe no one will want to state an observation for fear of being ridiculed. So.. what kind of forum does that make? An unreliable and biased one which is not helpful.
I wont waste anymore of my time responding to messages like yours and am posting this for all others who made this into a witch hunt instead of trying to diagnose or try to see if what i observed could be replicated not. You and the others who called me bs didn't.. so..you have nothing to add but ignorance and accepting whatever else someone says. Which is.. :laugh: ironic. Aren't you not challenging the challenge? You are in fact doing the exact same thing by just accepting someone elses' opinion instead of giving the observation i made a chance. Anyways. That's enough. I am working on my build and i want to enjoy it and not waste any more of my time arguing with biased ignorance.
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Quote from: sluckey on August 03, 2020, 09:09:09 pm
Probably not a good idea to quote me on your first post! :think1:
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Hey Champ,
You and I have had some friendly exchanges so I mean this with the most productive of intentions.
I observe no witch hunts. I only observe that when you used the phrase "they in fact reduce gain on my higher gain amps" people (me included) figured you were suggesting that what you observed could be relied upon as fact. Its a reasonable conclusion.
Calling people ignorant gets you nowhere positive.
Regards to all.
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Hey Champ,
You and I have had some friendly exchanges so I mean this with the most productive of intentions.
I observe no witch hunts. I only observe that when you used the phrase "they in fact reduce gain on my higher gain amps" people (me included) figured you were suggesting that what you observed could be relied upon as fact. Its a reasonable conclusion.
Calling people ignorant gets you nowhere positive.
Regards to all.
Your quote by marie is great. It could apply for both ways. Whatever the case I did clear it up in my previous posts. And we will have to agree to disagree on that as well which is fine. It IS ignorant to me. And not a kind way to talk about people's observations. Now.. the way I interpret those kinds of comments? Its like accusing me that am lying or intentionally trying to spread misinformation. Now why would someone want to do that. As you know i came here to post about my build (which is going great btw).. not to sabotage the forum. To be honest. I would like to get off this forum now. And the rest of my build posts will be recorded elsewhere on my personal files. This has not become a very enjoyable forum for me which is why i came on. But it doesnt matter to me really.
McCowen you really like forums. That's great. And..there a alot of people i know who hate forums and now I know why.. because one there is alot of bs. including how my comments were handled with a witch hunt mentality. Only wanted to share what i observed so maybe i could get a friendly discussion on it. Two, yup you guesed it..bs..like how sozo caps make your amp sound magical (now i will probably get some more hate comments from that one but i dont care), Mercury trannys are far superior than any other tranny.. the list goes on. There are too many opinions where someone's ego gets hurt and too many toes get stepped on. Forums are like walking on egg shells for me now. Yeah you could learn a few things here and there but I prefer to learn elsewhere. And I learned actual and more useful info from books like from Merlin Blencowe or Kevin O'conner (which I am still reading and still learning) than from here anyways. Hoffman's stuff is also very useful as his 5E3 layout shows a properly grounded circuit and I am using it on this build as well as it coincides with what I had in mind.
Tbh most were alot of negative comments. Only a handful of people liked my post on the build and i'd like to thank them for putting a thumbs up
Or a "looking good" comment or some useful tips on how to get solder to flow on better etc... I dont expect that but I really do appreciate it and thank you. What I DON'T appreciate are people calling me bullshit and ridiculing me instead of discussing an OBSERVATION in a mature way. And just because i used one word "fact" you use that against me. You all know or knew what my context was. An observation. I did not say all PEC pots reduce "gain". You should not use that against me. I said they reduced it on my build compared to the alphas. I mean how the heck are we supposed to word things around here in case someone gets offended.
Now for future new comers. Posts like this should be a discussion. Not ridiculed and talked to in an accusatory tone. And calling people bullshit.
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maybe chalk it up to the bug and we all smoke a fat one, or a frosty beer :icon_biggrin:
My overlord in the State house try's like crazy to tick me off EVERY day, I just ignore Her and live MY life, like water on a duck :laugh:
keep building, keep asking questions, and mostly, enjoy the process
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maybe chalk it up to the bug and we all smoke a fat one, or a frosty beer :icon_biggrin:
My overlord in the State house try's like crazy to tick me off EVERY day, I just ignore Her and live MY life, like water on a duck :laugh:
keep building, keep asking questions, and mostly, enjoy the process
Thanks Shooter. You are one of the positive ones out there. And a bit of comic relief from my last rant mixed with encouragement is always good. :laugh: but in all honesty i think i will enjoy my build way more away from this forum.
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And calling people bullshit
No one has called anyone bullshit. What you said has been called bullshit. You made a statement that even you said made no sense and some very savvy electronic people have called you on it. It's not up to the world to disprove your statement. It's up to you to prove it. Back it up with some tangible facts, something believable in the electronics world. Knowledgeable people will never believe that statement without some proof. Just saying you observed this is not going to convince anyone with a good electronics background. Some will speak up. A lot more will just remain quiet for a variety of reasons.
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Anyways. Now I have to clarify it is a qualitative observation. Thought observation implied that but i guess not. You are not calling anyone out unless you know factually its bullshit. But you don't because you and other naysayers have not even tried it which i have. So calling me out doesn't do anything. Not expecting someone to do it for me. What i mean to say is if YOU want to call me out then prove it. Honestly i dont know how to prove a qualitative observation quantitavely, maybe im not as "tech saavy" as you guys. I dunno.
Read the post you posted saying "here is all the proof you need". There is someone else who said they could have noticed that. Its not just me.
Anyways. I am out of here. Good knowing you guys.
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Bye
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Quote from: sluckey on August 03, 2020, 09:09:09 pm
Probably not a good idea to quote me on your first post! :think1:
Yes, I realize that, although it wasn't my first post. I had jumped in the conversation elsewhere on the forum about center taps vs "virtual" center taps, asking whether my having done both in my first build would cause problems. I am not sure why my involvement in this thread showed up as my first post.
At any rate, my comment -and especially my referring to some of Champ's build choices as nonesense- certainly don't create a good first impression. There is some background to my comment, but my selection of words could have been better.
*Apologies to you, Champ 49*
That said, while I'm new to amp building, I'm by no means new to electronics and internet forums. One of my long-standing personal gripes about the dynamics of special-interest forums is how certain dogmas (or "myths" as Adam Savage might call them) get asserted over and over and over and over and....you get the idea....without an apparent appetite or openness to the clinical physics that drive the subject at hand. (Don't get me started about tone caps!) When the engineers start talking scientific facts, invariably the advocates of a certain dogma pull out the good old, "well just because YOU can't hear the difference..." saw.
At any rate, I acknowledge being "triggered" by these kinds of threads and I should just restrain myself. Mea Culpa.
Best wishes on your 5E3 build, Champ. You obviously are a person who pays a great deal of attention to detail and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Build on.
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Yes, I realize that, although it wasn't my first post. I had jumped in the conversation elsewhere on the forum about center taps vs "virtual" center taps, asking whether my having done both in my first build would cause problems. I am not sure why my involvement in this thread showed up as my first post.
I remember that thread. And I remember us discussing it. But not on this board. That conversation took place over at the AMP Garage...
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33457&start=15#p415292
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Yes, I realize that, although it wasn't my first post. I had jumped in the conversation elsewhere on the forum about center taps vs "virtual" center taps, asking whether my having done both in my first build would cause problems. I am not sure why my involvement in this thread showed up as my first post.
I remember that thread. And I remember us discussing it. But not on this board. That conversation took place over at the AMP Garage...
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33457&start=15#p415292
That explains that; thanks for setting the record straight. What can I say? I'm 61 :-)
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At any rate, my comment -and especially my referring to some of Champ's build choices as nonesense- certainly don't create a good first impression. There is some background to my comment, but my selection of words could have been better.
*Apologies to you, Champ 49*
That said, while I'm new to amp building, I'm by no means new to electronics and internet forums. One of my long-standing personal gripes about the dynamics of special-interest forums is how certain dogmas (or "myths" as Adam Savage might call them) get asserted over and over and over and over and....you get the idea....without an apparent appetite or openness to the clinical physics that drive the subject at hand. (Don't get me started about tone caps!) When the engineers start talking scientific facts, invariably the advocates of a certain dogma pull out the good old, "well just because YOU can't hear the difference..." saw.
At any rate, I acknowledge being "triggered" by these kinds of threads and I should just restrain myself. Mea Culpa.
Best wishes on your 5E3 build, Champ. You obviously are a person who pays a great deal of attention to detail and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Build on.
[/quote]
Medley i do appreciate your follow up. I am aware of these dogmas and I don't like them as well as they ARE misleading repeated over again they start to get credit for everything and not what it is really worth. About these pots they were not intended to mislead or create a myth about them. I was just trying to bring it up as someone might have had that issue as well and wanted to know if i was going crazy or they really did what they did. And if so maybe i missed something. The best I could have done to prove this was make a video of it side by side. as I am not so good with quantitative data to prove something. Although i have built several amps I am still relatively new to this and still learning as I go. I am not electronically as well versed as some here so i hope you all understand. What i do know from limited experience is that in theory it should work but in practice it can come out as something different than what you expected. The pots have a taper both logarithmic. From what i am aware of they are both carbon tracks. Only one is built like a tank and sealed so it boggled my mind why I was hearing something different when they both had the same resistance. Anyways i am really done talking about that as I brought it up too much. I am sick of it and everyone is probably sick of hearing it too.
But to let you know i am fully aware of these myths people create about certain products and I don't like them as well.
Usually not negative but about how outstanding they are and how they "hear" the difference and it "sounds more open" etc..i was not promoting anything i was trying to make sense out of what i observed. please don't misunderstand me and place me in the same category as those people who spread that kind of myth as I myself am totally against that and ironically i was "chosen". Comments like previous ones should really be called on the real culprits. Which i am not. I have never seen anyone call out people on forums who just say Mercury trannys are just far superior with no base. They dont even admit that they know nothing about them. I admitted and stated that it did not make sense. These people don't. Just felt the wrong person was used as a scape goat and picked on. I felt like i was framed. And like you guys needed someone, anyone to pay for someone elses' misdeeds because you need to tell the state you caught someone, which was unfortunately me. So I got the sentence while the real thief was set free. if you really want to make a difference call THEM out on the forums now. There is so much shit out there. Maybe because they are assholes no one wants to or have the guts to call them out. I dunno. Maybe because i am not an asshole and some people thought it was easier. I dunno. But i stood up anyhow so there ya go.
Me bending the leads was done because it was suggested on Robinettes site and it made sense to me on a scientific sense. Although maybe not intended for thermal stresses as sluckey stated. But it still makes sense to me that they were bent for thermal stresses..but that's my opinion then. But it shouldn't matter since all the people who built without bending leads dont have issues with their amp including me. But I did it anyways for this build.
Anyways Medley I appreciate your follow up.
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... trying to make sense out of what i observed. ... it made sense to me on a scientific sense.
The problem is when unexplained observations and otherwise-sound logic mix to take things out of proportion, then become "Lore." Kinda like when I posted recently about tube matching (https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/30964235/), as people don't know how close is "close enough" (5mA apart? 1mA? 0.1mA?) and are told technical reasons "matched is better."
- Newer builders read advice on "best practices" in various places, but have no idea whether any are really that important to follow.
- People will get into heated arguments defending some "best practice" because so-and-so said... Meanwhile others will build amps without following the best practice, and get great results.
FWIW, I've used PEC pots in builds and they performed like any other pot; I don't know what the deal is with that whole discussion.
As for the issue of component leads ("To bend? Or not to bend? That is the question..." :icon_biggrin:), it seems reasonable to think it's an issue of mechanical strain relief. If you add it to your build, more power to you. I personally won't bother with the extra effort (but then, I don't use silicone glue to hold capacitors in place either). I'm sure the extra care over the leads isn't hurting anything, but I also have a dozen 50-60 year old amps that survived without it so :dontknow:.
I know I've been guilty of voicing my disagreement too aggressively at times, and it did me no favors. I suspect that's the real issue here.
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... trying to make sense out of what i observed. ... it made sense to me on a scientific sense.
The problem is when unexplained observations and otherwise-sound logic mix to take things out of proportion, then become "Lore." Kinda like when I posted recently about tube matching (https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/30964235/), as people don't know how close is "close enough" (5mA apart? 1mA? 0.1mA?) and are told technical reasons "matched is better."
- Newer builders read advice on "best practices" in various places, but have no idea whether any are really that important to follow.
- People will get into heated arguments defending some "best practice" because so-and-so said... Meanwhile others will build amps without following the best practice, and get great results.
FWIW, I've used PEC pots in builds and they performed like any other pot; I don't know what the deal is with that whole discussion.
As for the issue of component leads ("To bend? Or not to bend? That is the question..." :icon_biggrin:), it seems reasonable to think it's an issue of mechanical strain relief. If you add it to your build, more power to you. I personally won't bother with the extra effort (but then, I don't use silicone glue to hold capacitors in place either). I'm sure the extra care over the leads isn't hurting anything, but I also have a dozen 50-60 year old amps that survived without it so :dontknow:.
I know I've been guilty of voicing my disagreement too aggressively at times, and it did me no favors. I suspect that's the real issue here.
For leads that is exactly the point. Some people like myself like to build with that bit extra which doesn't hurt. In engineering we account for a margin of error. Such as highways are designed for a speed limit over of what is actually posted. Anyways.. to each their own it all comes down to.. it's YOUR amp. Well your 50-60 year amps survived so now I can rest assured all my other builds won't have any future issues :laugh:. And it will save me time on my next builds. But yeah, sometimes "relatively" newer builders like myself read up on sites like Robinettes site and think "maybe I HAVE to do this". I did it grudginly to be honest. And i hated bending those leads. Its a pain really . :laugh:
Observations turning to lore is an issue yes i agree. But.. the other extreme is being overly vigilante in calling out as in this case the issue with the pots as some things can and will be overlooked. In my case i used pec for my last build and it turned out wonderfully. Now used on the jcm800 preamp control pot it turned out differently. Kick me out for saying that. I don't care. Really. So.. depended on the build and type of amp in my case. Cleaner amps like the 5e3 no difference.
I am guessing someone will notice this..eventually.
As i mentioned theory is a starting point. But in the real world theory can only be applied and hoped to work as close to what was hypothesised and may not turn out as hypothesised.