Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum

Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: plexi50 on August 11, 2022, 09:17:38 pm

Title: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 11, 2022, 09:17:38 pm
I went through this last year with this same Gemini 1. I have no tremelo. I have all my doc's from many other Gemini amps. You can hear a ticking sound and the speed pot works increasing or decreasing the ticking. But i have to touch a coupling cap to make that happen. Otherwise no tremelo period.Thing's i have done:Installed new Fliptops Trem Module:Installed new Mallory M150 .047 trem caps:Installed (2) Tremelo Cathode Cap's. I have oscillation of voltages across the caps north end. I have 60 VDC on the purple wire going to the lamp.I have 189 VDC on pin#6 when trem switch pedal is disengaged. Lowest voltage during Oscillation of pin 6 is 79 VDC. Last: The INT pot adjusts the volume of the amp.
What am i missing? Here We Go Again.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: Keppy on August 12, 2022, 12:26:05 am
Schematic (https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Ampeg/Ampeg_g12.pdf)


From your description, the amp is working as though the variable resistor in the trem is open circuit. On the schematic I linked, points X and Y are connected through that resistance, and without it, the trem intensity pot makes a voltage divider with the tone stack that explains the volume change.


Can you observe oscillation on the contact for the lamp itself? You only mention DC on the wire feeding the lamp.


If you have oscillation on the lamp wire, I see two possible explanations:
(https://www.fliptops.net/content/images/products/TREMOLO/TM1%20PCB%20001.jpg)
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 07:12:18 am
There are two choices. This one is the one i have.(https://www.fliptops.net/content/images/products/TREMOLO/VM1 PCB VERSION.jpg) (https://www.fliptops.net/catalog/p-100088)    VM1 / VM1A Vibrato Module ,  GV and "x" Series Amps UPDATED

And this one that states it works on the Gemini1.
(https://www.fliptops.net/content/images/products/TREMOLO/TM1 PCB 001.jpg) (https://www.fliptops.net/catalog/p-100087)    TM1/M1-R Tremolo Module for Vintage Ampegs


I have used VM1 / VM1A before and it worked in a Gemimi II.
 
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 08:10:20 am
TM1/M1-R Tremolo Module is on it's way to me. What is the difference between these trem modules?
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 08:18:47 am
No oscillation on the purple lamp wire to speak of. Positive 55-60 VDC.
Reply from Sluckey last year on this very same subject on wiring.

Quote: Ignore the cell on the left.Connect the right cell to the pot wires (points X and Y on the schematic). Doesn't matter which wire goes where.
Connect the lamp to the black and violet wires. Doesn't matter which wire goes where.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: sluckey on August 12, 2022, 08:20:18 am
VM module contains two LDRs. The TM module contains only one LDR.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 08:32:54 am
VM module contains two LDRs. The TM module contains only one LDR.
Your a D*m GENIUS!!! So why did he ship me this one? My invoice was for TM?
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: sluckey on August 12, 2022, 08:53:04 am
Ask him. Did he only charge for the cheaper TM module?

The VM module will work fine in a TM circuit. One LDR will not be used. But the TM module cannot be used in a VM circuit because it only has one LDR. Look at some schematics.

The cheap Fender style roach can be used instead of that way overpriced TM module.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 09:35:20 am
Ok, reversed the pot wires to the left side Cell and BINGO PRESTO! Beautiful full and room filling tremelo! The guy that makes them does not mark the Cell that has the LDR on the board for the TM1 module. He does not break off the end of the TM1 module anymore.
One more thing. The intensity pot does little to nothing when turned on CCW. Very little tremelo through full rotation. Turned off CW great sounding tremelo. The yellow wire coming from the pot switch to the 22k resistor is in play here correct? I lifted the resistor leg and it reads 22K. Lower or increase this value?
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: sluckey on August 12, 2022, 09:52:22 am
Ok, reversed the pot wires to the left side Cell and BINGO PRESTO! Beautiful full and room filling tremelo!
The LDR (cell) doesn't care which wire is connected where. I suspect you probably found a bad connection.

Quote
One more thing. The intensity pot does little to nothing when turned on CCW. Very little tremelo through full rotation. Turned off CW great sounding tremelo. The yellow wire coming from the pot switch to the 22k resistor is in play here correct?
That doesn't sound right. You should have tremolo with or without the "afterbeat" switch. And the intensity pot should control the intensity.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 11:29:21 am
Ok, reversed the pot wires to the left side Cell and BINGO PRESTO! Beautiful full and room filling tremelo!
The LDR (cell) doesn't care which wire is connected where. I suspect you probably found a bad connection.

Quote
One more thing. The intensity pot does little to nothing when turned on CCW. Very little tremelo through full rotation. Turned off CW great sounding tremelo. The yellow wire coming from the pot switch to the 22k resistor is in play here correct?
That doesn't sound right. You should have tremolo with or without the "afterbeat" switch. And the intensity pot should control the intensity.
Yes intensity pot should control intensity.  When the intensity pot is turned on there is a slight weak tremelo sound. But as you rotate the pot CCW there is no trem at all. Shut off intensity pot and works very nice. It's like it has full intensity without the pot.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: sluckey on August 12, 2022, 12:00:37 pm
Sounds like the pot is wired backwards. Check this... Turn the pot max CCW (that's zero or 7 o'clock for people that don't understand CCW   :icon_biggrin: ). The resistance across the pot should be zero ohms. Now turn the pot max CW but don't click the switch. The resistance across the pot should be 4M. Does this check out OK? If backwards, swap the two wires on the pot, ***NOT ON THE TM1 MODULE.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 01:03:55 pm
Sounds like the pot is wired backwards. Check this... Turn the pot max CCW (that's zero or 7 o'clock for people that don't understand CCW   :icon_biggrin: ). The resistance across the pot should be zero ohms. Now turn the pot max CW but don't click the switch. The resistance across the pot should be 4M. Does this check out OK? If backwards, swap the two wires on the pot, ***NOT ON THE TM1 MODULE.
Intensity pot full CCW 42.6 Ohm. CW before the click 3.65 Meg.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: sluckey on August 12, 2022, 01:29:20 pm
The pot is wired correctly. Let's be sure I understand what you have told me. The tremolo is very weak to none as you turn the pot from max CCW to max CW(no click). But when you click the switch at the max CW end of rotation you have beautiful tremolo, but you can't control the intensity. Do I have that right?
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 01:46:05 pm
The pot is wired correctly. Let's be sure I understand what you have told me. The tremolo is very weak to none as you turn the pot from max CCW to max CW(no click). But when you click the switch at the max CW end of rotation you have beautiful tremolo, but you can't control the intensity. Do I have that right?
Exactly. Strange.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 01:59:51 pm
Im checking the 390k and 1 meg resistors in the after beat path. 390k is good. Got to lift the purple wire from the board to get a reading on the 1 meg.  1meg is reading 450 in circuit.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 02:35:50 pm
Im checking the 390k and 1 meg resistors in the after beat path. 390k is good. Got to lift the purple wire from the board to get a reading on the 1 meg.  1meg is reading 450 in circuit.
Both resistors check out good in value.
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: sluckey on August 12, 2022, 03:15:19 pm
Put a jumper across the switch contacts. Now the INT pot should control the amount of tremolo. Like what you hear?
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 03:25:10 pm
Were on the same path Steve.
Ok are you ready for some more CRAZY? I decided to check the back of the intensity pot switch where the yellow and black wire going to ground connects to the switch itself. I put a screwdriver across the switch terminals. The intensity switch is fully functional. In a way some things about this amp are azz backwards.  :dontknow: :l2: 
Title: Re: Ampeg Gemini 1 Tremelo Problem (AGAIN)
Post by: plexi50 on August 12, 2022, 03:26:58 pm
Put a jumper across the switch contacts. Now the INT pot should control the amount of tremolo. Like what you hear?
Yes it works all the way and sounds great.  *DONE*