Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum

Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 03:33:21 pm

Title: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 03:33:21 pm

the transformer was harvested from a Wurlitzer model 6144 (320 - 0 - 320) neither the layout nor schematic indicate output voltages of the OEM PT.
the board is a Hoffman 5F6 type modified as required. I've moved the 25R and 6K8 to the board. (next page) I'm working from the layout and don't know if there are any mismatch(s) between this and the schem.
after completion I put the unit on a Variac as a test to see if any of the smoke wanted to escape. so far so good ?
the voltage readings are not as expected. (next page)   

Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 03:38:19 pm
more pix.


 
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 03:50:12 pm
voltages:
filters L to R;


layout says 400. I have 412
layout        320            411
                 300            383



Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on September 17, 2023, 03:55:46 pm
Is your speaker jack a Switchcraft 12A? If so, I believe the yellow wire is connected to the switch terminal. It should be connected to the tip terminal.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 03:59:35 pm
here's where things really start to get wacky;
circled points L to R;
layout says 160. I have 370
layout         2.6             5.4                 
2.6              5.4
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 04:02:29 pm
Is your speaker jack a Switchcraft 12A? If so, I believe the yellow wire is connected to the switch terminal. It should be connected to the tip terminal.


it is. I'll double check. would that cause the wonky voltages I'm seeing ?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on September 17, 2023, 04:07:36 pm
I'll double check. would that cause the wonky voltages I'm seeing ?
No, but it will certainly cause you to have no output.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: PRR on September 17, 2023, 04:33:34 pm
layout says 400. I have 412
layout        320            411
                 300            383

Small tubes are not sucking current. Are they wired right? Heaters too? Are they in their sockets?

-OR- your "10K" are really 1k.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: AlNewman on September 17, 2023, 04:35:00 pm
What are your voltages at all socket pins?  Including AC/heater voltages?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 04:35:21 pm
I'll double check. would that cause the wonky voltages I'm seeing ?
No, but it will certainly cause you to have no output.


output jack wiring corrected. thanks!
gosh my dummy load is warming up  :worthy1:
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 05:04:54 pm
layout says 400. I have 412
layout        320            411
                 300            383
your "10K" are really 1k.


yes... and no.
while I routinely check the comps to make sure they're in spec. I may have skipped that here. I may have taken it on faith when I ordered 10K that all were the correct value. the value striping on this modern stuff is pretty crappy. so... one is 10K the other is 1K.
back in a moment.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: AlNewman on September 17, 2023, 05:17:39 pm
It looks like on your pictures you have 2 heater wires running from tube to tube.  If you're following the layout, there should only be one with a chassis return.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 05:24:18 pm
proper 10K installed. PS outputs are now in spec.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on September 17, 2023, 05:26:41 pm
output jack wiring corrected. thanks!
gosh my dummy load is warming up  :worthy1:
That dummy load should not be warming up unless you have a signal (guitar, signal generator, etc.) connected to the input. If it is getting warm that means you have an oscillation going on. Better plug in a speaker to know for sure. An oscillation would most likely be caused by incorrect phase of the negative feedback. This can cause damage to the output transformer.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 05:29:38 pm
new readings for these points are as follows;


circled points L to R;
layout says 160. I have 290
layout         2.6             4.7                       
                  2.6             4.1



Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 17, 2023, 05:39:10 pm
It looks like on your pictures you have 2 heater wires running from tube to tube.  If you're following the layout, there should only be one with a chassis return.


got it.
@ this point I there's some family chores I can't put off (any longer than I already have). I'll be back ASAP. again, my thanks to all.   
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 19, 2023, 07:51:32 pm
output jack wiring corrected. thanks!
gosh my dummy load is warming up  :worthy1:
That dummy load should not be warming up unless you have a signal (guitar, signal generator, etc.) connected to the input. If it is getting warm that means you have an oscillation going on. Better plug in a speaker to know for sure. An oscillation would most likely be caused by incorrect phase of the negative feedback. This can cause damage to the output transformer.


yep... "hash" of some sort. definitely not 60 cycle hum. I need to double check the relocation of these two.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on September 19, 2023, 08:03:13 pm
Disconnect the 6.8K from the speaker jack. Any better?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 19, 2023, 08:13:41 pm
It looks like on your pictures you have 2 heater wires running from tube to tube.  If you're following the layout, there should only be one with a chassis return.


agreed.
...and originally I had the green 6.3V wire going to the ground side of the pilot light and the green-yellow wire going to the tip. I've since reversed this.
my thinking is that this is AC and polarity is not an issue. too simplistic ?
I also have short jumpers from each filament to ground for all sockets.   :w2: 
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 19, 2023, 08:24:07 pm
Disconnect the 6.8K from the speaker jack. Any better?


no change.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: AlNewman on September 19, 2023, 08:53:03 pm
It looks like on your pictures you have 2 heater wires running from tube to tube.  If you're following the layout, there should only be one with a chassis return.


agreed.
...and originally I had the green 6.3V wire going to the ground side of the pilot light and the green-yellow wire going to the tip. I've since reversed this.
my thinking is that this is AC and polarity is not an issue. too simplistic ?
I also have short jumpers from each filament to ground for all sockets.   :w2:

Sounds like you got er all figured out.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 20, 2023, 04:04:25 pm
It looks like on your pictures you have 2 heater wires running from tube to tube.  If you're following the layout, there should only be one with a chassis return.


agreed.
...and originally I had the green 6.3V wire going to the ground side of the pilot light and the green-yellow wire going to the tip. I've since reversed this.
my thinking is that this is AC and polarity is not an issue. too simplistic ?
I also have short jumpers from each filament to ground for all sockets.   :w2:

Sounds like you got er all figured out.


only the filament wiring unfortunately.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output / the plot thickens...
Post by: zephyrblau on September 20, 2023, 04:06:29 pm
it seems that someone who shall remain nameless got his hands crossed and installed a 6SL7 in V1 (S/B 6SC7) 
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output / the plot thickens...
Post by: zephyrblau on September 21, 2023, 01:47:47 pm
it seems that someone who shall remain nameless got his hands crossed and installed a 6SL7 in V1 (S/B 6SC7)


the net result of the above is no change in the "hash" output.
I've checked the resistance of the primary side of the O/T and both sides measure 61R (+ / - .5ohm)
@ the moment I'm building a proper cap discharge "pen".
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on September 21, 2023, 03:01:01 pm
Divide and conquer. Pull the 6SL7. Any better?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 21, 2023, 03:47:29 pm
Divide and conquer. Pull the 6SL7. Any better?


better but, not good.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on September 21, 2023, 04:00:54 pm
...and I should clarify something. the "hash" that I refer to above is indeed an oscillation. the owner supplied a few 6SL7s, all Ruskie. one of which, the first one I tried is especially noisy with some crackling added for good measure.
the other two don't have the crackle but the oscillation persists.
 
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on September 21, 2023, 05:04:04 pm
Not much left... power tubes and power supply. Wiring error should be high on the list.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... yep... they don't call me bonehead for nothin'
Post by: zephyrblau on October 04, 2023, 10:47:33 pm
it seems that someone forgot a ground connection.
 
Title: Re: 5B6 build... yep... they don't call me bonehead for nothin'
Post by: sluckey on October 05, 2023, 06:15:58 am
it seems that someone forgot a ground connection.
Is everything working now?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... yep... they don't call me bonehead for nothin'
Post by: zephyrblau on October 05, 2023, 10:49:51 pm
it seems that someone forgot a ground connection.
Is everything working now?


not yet. better but not OK. I'll post updated info tomorrow (Fri.)
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: tubeswell on October 06, 2023, 12:32:49 am
Time for another set of voltages?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on October 06, 2023, 07:22:29 pm
Time for another set of voltages?
yep!
per the attached layout I put the Fender values are listed first. mine are in brackets. numbered 1 through 9 from left to right. yellow was probably a better color to use, but...
1) 400 [490]
2) 320 [461]
3) 300 [433]
4) 160 [417]
5) 180 [140] note; this drops to 47 if I unplug the umbilical cord / control panel. adjusting the Vol or Tone settings has no bearing.
6) 390 [490]
7) 180 [135]
8) 320 [461]
9) 390 [490]

Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: Esquirefreak on October 07, 2023, 11:50:50 am
Cathode voltage on the power tubes would be good to know. Unusually high voltages usually indicate that something is not pulling its share of current.

/Max
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on October 07, 2023, 12:24:08 pm
does 63V sound right ?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: Esquirefreak on October 07, 2023, 12:27:34 pm
No, but it depends on what value the resistor is. Compare it to the schematic or layout.

Divide that voltage with the resistance of the cathode resistor to figure out how many milliamps the power tube are pulling.

/Max
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on October 07, 2023, 01:45:14 pm
250 ohms ... pretty standard Fender stuff of the era (?)  25 ma ?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: Esquirefreak on October 07, 2023, 03:38:20 pm
250 mA?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: shooter on October 07, 2023, 04:43:19 pm
63vdc/250 ohms = 144mA
if it's shared then 144/2 mA
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: AlNewman on October 07, 2023, 07:20:46 pm
Have you actually tested the resistance on your 250R resistor?  Because with your described voltages, it's putting out like 15W of heat, which is fairly significant.  That, and your power tubes are running at 200% +
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: Esquirefreak on October 07, 2023, 07:52:59 pm
63 ÷ 250 = .252A on my calculator. Have I misunderstood something here?

Sorry.

/Max
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: tubeswell on October 08, 2023, 10:14:39 am
Measure the 250 ohm resistor with your R-meter to get its actual resistance.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on October 08, 2023, 11:03:57 am
somewhere along the line it's burned up. I didn't verify it prior to installing but I do recall it being hot at some point during testing... too hot to touch if that's relevant.
it was purchased as part of a pair and the other reads 247 ohms. I'll be swapping the other one in shortly.


 
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: shooter on October 08, 2023, 11:19:49 am
 :laugh:  dyslexia  I keyed in 36/250 TWICE
sorry for the confusion
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: Esquirefreak on October 08, 2023, 12:01:17 pm
Haha, that happens to me every now and then too  :laugh:

Hopefully voltages will come down when the bias is steady.

However, I'm at a loss with the test point where you noted the voltage dropping.

/Max
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: shooter on October 08, 2023, 05:26:53 pm
appears to be the PI input, whichever plate pin 5 is


EDIT:  looks like you remove G1's reference to ground through the Vol pot, sending into lala land??
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on October 08, 2023, 06:06:25 pm
per entry #5 above where I note the voltage drop this is the only change of all listed when I pull the umbilical. all other testing is done with the control panel hooked up.
dropping resister changed out.
control panel and layout pix attached.
   
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on October 08, 2023, 07:09:46 pm
Input jacks are wired wrong.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on October 08, 2023, 08:54:20 pm
better ?
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on October 08, 2023, 08:58:16 pm
They are on the correct lug now but the soldering job looks terrible.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on October 10, 2023, 05:59:35 pm
found another missing wire and installed it. verified all wiring.
voltages now read as follows:
1) 400 [407]
2) 320 [339]
3) 300 [315]
4) 160 [100]
5) 180 [100]
6) 390 [401]
7) 180 [97]
8) 320 [339]
9) 390 [404]

oscillation is still an issue. chop sticking produces no change. dropping the 6SC7GT produces no change.
drop the Russkie 6SL7 and the amp is dead quiet.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: sluckey on October 10, 2023, 06:52:48 pm
Keep looking. I suspect at least one more wiring error.
Title: Re: 5B6 build... no output
Post by: zephyrblau on October 12, 2023, 07:05:56 pm
changed out the Russkie 6SL7 (actually 6SN7) to a 5691 and all is well. again my thanks to all for the help.