Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum
Amp Stuff => Tube Amp Building - Tweaks - Repairs => Topic started by: FYL on April 14, 2010, 08:19:37 am
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SoZo has done it again with their Royal 67, a 100µF/350V cap targeted at Marshall builds and restorations.
(http://www.sozoamplification.com/images/royal-67-caps/sozo-royal-67-capacitor.jpg)
From their spec blurb: "SoZo's single 100uf radial electrolytic super cap is named the Royal 67. It is modeled precisely after the vintage Hunts™ / Eire™ / RS™ capacitors found in the 1967/68 10xxx and 12xxx series of 100 watt Marshalls. It is called a super cap because of its amazing ratings; modern electrolytic capacitors are rated for 2000 hours, the SoZo Royal 67 can operate for 10 years straight - 87,650 hours. It is a standard 1 3/8" diameter so it can be used in place of the 50x50 capacitors found in the later Marshalls."
http://www.sozoamplification.com/royal67_purchase.html
Now, let's have a serious look at this cap : 55° temp rating (!), a strobe discharge life test - this is a friggin photoflash/strobe cap, designed for fast DC high current discharge, with very poor ripple current handling. Such caps should *never* be used in the first stage of a power supply.
And from where are they sourced? EIA code 658 = Sangamo, part of CDE since 1987 or so. And yes, it's a CDE ST101V360J042 photoflash cap, cf. the datasheet at http://www.cde.com/catalogs/ST.pdf
"modeled precisely after the vintage Hunts™ / Eire™ / RS™ capacitors"? Oh, yeah, the form factor is nearly the same...
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Too much mis-information and hype can make for disaster in an amplifier. 55 degree????? I don't like to use less than 105 degree.
But...take some old vintage amps.They used some pretty low grade(by today's standards) capacitors and they last a long,long time.
So who's to say these caps won't be just fine?
But photoflash caps?I'm thinking Sozo may know something beyond the numbers.
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55C = 133 degree fahrenheit.
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Far too low for a tube guitar amp.The damn temperature inside a 100 watt Marshall head is constantly over 133 F.More like 150 F.
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55 degree????? I don't like to use less than 105 degree.
Yup. Caps should be rated at 85 or 105° C, depending on the application.
But...take some old vintage amps.They used some pretty low grade(by today's standards) capacitors and they last a long,long time.
So who's to say these caps won't be just fine?
Photoflash caps are designed for pure DC applications, don't handle any significant ripple current, have a very poor thermal behavior, show a highish DF even if they are optimized for minimum inductance. Filtering caps work on pulsated DC, with a high ripple content - typically a few dozens of volts at 2A or more, are usually well balanced thermally (Sprague Atom's are one of the few exceptions) and show a low DF.
Using a photoflash for ripple filtering is technically stupid.
I'm thinking Sozo may know something beyond the numbers.
The numbers add up pretty well: you can buy the original CDE for $6 or so, the SoZo lists for $20.
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Far too low for a tube guitar amp.
85° C is a minimum.
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Even the cheapo Weber e-caps are rated @105°C
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Replicating caps of yester-year seems foolish to me. Back in the day, caps were expensive and noisy. I understand and enjoy the idea of using a tube rectifier for sag characteristics, but using a 55C caps seems like begging for trouble. I have never been able to bring myself to purchase Sozo caps. My amplifier budget has grown limited and I just can't justify the additional expense. Maybe somebody will ask me to install them someday and I'll order some extras for dissection.
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"modeled precisely after the vintage Hunts™ / Eire™ / RS™ capacitors"
That should be "Erie" as in one of the Great Lakes in the U.S. rather than "Eire" as in Ireland. Which is amusing since this is all so obviously targeted to a Marshall crowd.
55C = 133 degree fahrenheit.
The damn temperature inside a 100 watt Marshall head is constantly over 133 F.More like 150 F.
To be fair, most of these caps are going to be mounted so they feel the ambient air temperature more than the internal temperature.
However... when I got to Kuwait, enroute to Iraq, the ambient temperature was almost 120 F, and that's without tube electronics throwing off some heat. :laugh:
Really though, you might mount these caps near a rectifier or output tube, so the heating of the cap is much more than you would think. Or inside a poorly-ventilated cabinet, which again leads to higher heating. And just because the max temperature is given on the cap doesn't mean that everything is kosher until that temperature is reached; caps are usually derated on various specs prior to the maximum being reached.
Anyway, anyone who is not a component manufacturer is just going to be relabeling someone else's product, possibly with extra testing to meet some spec. This means that you're paying extra mostly just to have a certain company's name on the wrapper.
The radio restoration guys are starting to seem very smart when they hollow out old caps and restuff with modern caps, or take an old cap label and apply it to a new cap. It is very common for them to begin restoration of any old gear by replacing every cap, since the ones that aren't leaky now will wind up leaky later. It follows that they buy so many caps that they don't go for the specialty-label voodoo stuff. They also despise some caps as being horribly unreliable that are prized in the hi-fi and guitar communties. I find that interesting...
{EDIT: broken Italic tag -- PRR}
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I always thought that those Marshalls sounded best right before they blew up. So maybe Sozo is try to recreate that special sound of a Marshall right before it goes POP.
Seriously who knows what they are thinking and how much they tested them. I really do trust the guys here and would believe y'all before some small company trying to make a name for themselves and money.
I use their handmade tone/coupling caps and they sound GREAT.
But this does sound really hinky.
If I were a serious builder of amps I would find out...............
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I have never been able to bring myself to purchase Sozo caps.
I did some proper double blind tests a while back - the panel included 22n, 47n and 100n 400 to 630V caps from ETR (OEM to CDE), Mallory, Mullard (NOS), Roederstein, SoZo and TAD (Mullard mustard cap repros). No significant measurable difference, strictly no subjective difference. But there's one big difference : the ETR are vastly less expensive than so-called high end caps...
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... proper double blind tests a while back ...
really? That must have been a bunch of work - how did you set that up? Did you have a lot of participants? What kind of a circuit did you use for testing?
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Recorded 24/192 signal => analog out => simple testing amp platform including DUT => 24/192 sound card => digital capture
Just change the DUT, repeat.
Then captured samples => PC-based AB/ABX comparator => 24/192 sound card => analog out = > high quality hifi amp & speakers.
Plus the usual measurements using a Sencore LC-53 as well as a PC-based FFT system.
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Any chance you can share the sound files? It'd be interesting to listen to. What kind of circuit (e.g. coupling cap, tone cap, cathode bypass)?
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why do I spend the majority of my day on the sites that do not give me the goods like this. :cry: :cry:
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Because the gear page ain't Hoffman amps forum.'Nuff said.
And doing tests on different coupling caps is subjective.Many sound quite different and do float some people's boat.But it really is funny how the differences can be subtle and can easily change from day to day.
However,if a cap is bad sounding to start with,no amount of technique or sitting in a different spot or tone tweaking can make it sound better.And harmonics don't come easily with some either.
So it's really a crap shoot.Use what makes you happy and has some range to it and you're good.
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Any chance you can share the sound files?
I don't think that I've archived them.
What kind of circuit (e.g. coupling cap, tone cap, cathode bypass)?
Coupling.
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>And doing tests on different coupling caps is subjective.
Watch this:
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And doing tests on different coupling caps is subjective.Many sound quite different and do float some people's boat.But it really is funny how the differences can be subtle and can easily change from day to day.
Proper double blind tests eliminate a lot of false subjectivity. Then you can focus on the real differences, if any.
So it's really a crap shoot.Use what makes you happy and has some range to it and you're good.
I'd say use whatever cap fits technically and physically, and maybe go for some fancy models if you or your customers feel better that way.
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Watch this:
A classic...
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Most of my best sounding amps were experiments using old stuff laying around and old square Xicon caps. I like 'em. I like Mallorys. I like Webers. I don't like Sprague but only because of the size. They sound fine. I don't understand the need for ultra expensive high fidelity caps in a low fidelity application. I'd rather save the money for great speakers.
Dave
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> photoflash/strobe cap... Such caps should *never* be used in the first stage of a power supply.
It has worked for me, long-term.
Gotta respect the laws of physics though.
You can get very compact fotoflash caps. But in ripple-catching you can NOT get away with anything far smaller (physically) than you would use normally; you can't "save space".
> Photoflash caps are designed for pure DC applications, don't handle any significant ripple current
They handle a HUGE "ripple current" every time they flash. In still photography, that may be seldom. But airport and ambulance lights flash at high rates for extended times. Unlike our amps which only discharge 5% each cycle, a photoflash discharges to ZERO every time.
Photo-flash caps normally sit in a cool spot. Worst-case they jolt a 100 Amp flash many times a second; other photo-caps sit with only leakage for many minutes while the photographer sets up a shot. It IS very different duty, hard to define, but normally not "hot" duty. So temp rating (not limit) becomes a concern.
You can use 470uFd foto where you would use 40uFd classic can-cap.
> The damn temperature inside a 100 watt Marshall ....More like 150 F.
> enroute to Iraq, the ambient temperature was almost 120 F
150F is 65C. 120F is 50C.
The "temperature" on an e-cap is not a blow-up limit. Run it hotter, life is shorter. Roughly half for every 10 degrees C hotter. So a "55C" cap sure will work at 65C, for half the time.
But what IS the life-rating on this cap?? SoZo's "10 years" seems to be taken directly from CDE's blurb.... but CDE really says 30 million flashes then claims this is "more than ten years’ operation in emergency vehicles". Their graph for 10 million flashes at 6Hz covers about 19 days non-stop hard flashing. 30 million flashes at 2 per second, emergency vehicle rate, is 4,200 hours. Under the 10 year claim, that's 420 hours/year or about an hour a day.
The 6Hz full-discharge rate may be similar to 120Hz at 5% discharge (5% ripple). Taking this approximation, they say 10 million flashes for-sure, and typical 30 million flashes. That suggests 57 days non-stop. Over 10 years that is 5.7 days or 137 hours per year, 2.6 hours per week.
> Marshall ....More like 150 F.
And granting that, the life is half: 1.3 hours per week.
Another thing: a power supply cap "should not" fail short. The "100W" PT can deliver well over 1,000 Watts for many seconds, so a shorted cap leads to explosion or fire. A photo-flash cap charger must "start from zero" at every re-charge, is always current-limited in some way, will not go wild trying to charge a short.
All that said: in my opinion, that CDE cap will run hours a night every night for a decade, unless you jam it too close to the power tubes. It's a good cap, very conservatively specced, and it is plenty big enough.
$14 extra for SoZo logo and application warranty.... hmmmm.....
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I have to chime in here and say from the perspective of a guitar player, a serious blues and blues rock player I can feel as much of a difference as I hear it.
I use many techniques for vibrato, I use the pickups facing the speakers for special effects to get a little feedback of certain notes. A whole host of picking and finger techniques I developed over 40+ years of playing.
Sound is subjective that we all agree on but......when I plug a guitar into an amp it's how it feels and responds. Ask a race car driver about that, how his car handles on certain tracks and how the engineers listen to the driver out of respect and make changes to the engine, drive train and suspension, tires, excreta. So all the sound cards an graphs and tests mean nothing. When I turn the amp up and play the question is does the amp respond the way I want it to as well as the sound I get. Like an amp that's over filtered, I can feel the difference even more then hear it. I can feel the pull of the note as opposed to letting the note sing out a certain way. Some people like that feel , I don't.
So yes I really like the Jupiter and SOZO handmade caps. I can feel the difference as much as hear it. It subtle and I am sure many people cannot tell the difference, even many guitar players. I can and was shocked because at first I did NOT believe it, I was extremely skeptical. When I close my eyes and go into that special place, in the zone. I can only do that when the amp is cooking and maybe the band is cooking and I'm poring my heart and soul into a solo, yes indeed I can tell the difference.
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>And doing tests on different coupling caps is subjective.
Watch this:
Thanks for re-posting this. Lost track of it but now it's bookmarked.
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Great stuff and in a way reinforces what I was saying about feel. I can feel how the amp responds to my playing, it's not with the ears only but a combination of things. When I bend a string and vibrato I know if there is a difference right away. I could tell since I was a teenager, right away, any difference or change or something that I didn't like because I could feel it first before I consciously recognized it. Yes I heard it first but my brain was taking the information and processing it differently then if I was JUST listening and not paying more attention to how the amp respond to my playing. When I play and check out an amp it's not like an audio engineer checking out different mic preamps. I'm plugged in and my body, mind and guitar become one.
The same goes for pickups. One idiot on the Webervst boards a few yeas ago swore all guitar pickups were the same and none had any difference. That is was all BS about the different wire and magnets and build. Well I can tell you everything matters, the type of wind, even the amount of insulation will change the tone of the pickup. I have probably spent almost as much money trying different pickups in my guitars as I have on amps. And for amps the different tubes changing the sound, tone, and most important for me feel of the amp.
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Big Daddy, get your feel (pun intended), but I don't think pickups and coupling caps are comparable. Most would agree that pickups change the sound, maybe even more so than speakers, but coupling caps? I still don't buy it, literally.
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>And doing tests on different coupling caps is subjective.
Watch this:
She totally gets my "engineer geek" motor running... yum.
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The same goes for pickups.
Pickups are HUGE effect on tone. I gotta box filled with them, but I have the ones I love in my guitars.
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I'm gonna back Bigdaddy on the feel thang. That's where all the magic happens. Mojo is much more about the relationship between person and instruments and not how much you spent on caps, but if you feel it's important to use big blue transformers, then you probably should. Years ago, many people were trying to make the perfect amplifier. Finally the Princeton Reverb was born and one might think it would end there but no. That dang Mesa Boogie fella went and hot rodded the already perfect amp and the boutique circus began.
Ironically, today I broke out an amp I built quite a while ago and hadn't played in months. Immediately I thought to myself, "this isn't how I remember it sounding." When I built it, I thought it was the baked potato loaded with extra bacon bits. Today I almost popped the hood on it to add some salt & pepper.
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It has worked for me, long-term.
Provided that you've suitably derated them.
They handle a HUGE "ripple current" every time they flash.
Fast charge/discharge <> 50 to 120 Hz ripple.
All that said: in my opinion, that CDE cap will run hours a night every night for a decade, unless you jam it too close to the power tubes. It's a good cap, very conservatively specced, and it is plenty big enough.
Let me kindly disagree: this cap should never be used in a guitar amp.
$14 extra for SoZo logo and application warranty.... hmmmm.....
It sounds much better with the SoZo logo.
(Edit: typo)
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Here are the "specs", from the SoZo web site:
SoZo Royal 67 Capacitor Specifications
Discharge Life: Tested to More than 10 million discharges - typical life is more than 30 million
Working Volts: 350 VDC
Surge Volts: 400 VDC
Ripple Current @ 120Hz , 85°C: 0.80 Ω max.
Normal Operating Temperature: - 20 °C to +55 °C
Leakage Current: 0.01 CV +20 μA at 25 °C
Cold Impedance: –20 °C multiplier of 25 °C Z ≤ 2
Dissipation Factor: 7% maximum @ 25 °C & 120 Hz
Shelf Life: 500 h @ +55 °C, Δ capacitance ±10%, ESR 150% of limit, DCL 150% of limit
Vibration: 10 to 55 Hz; 0.06” and 10 g max, 6 h vertical, 2 h each, 2 other planes
Now, can anybody explain to me what "Ripple Current @ 120Hz , 85°C: 0.80 Ω max." means?
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Big Daddy, get your feel (pun intended), but I don't think pickups and coupling caps are comparable. Most would agree that pickups change the sound, maybe even more so than speakers, but coupling caps? I still don't buy it, literally.
I think different types of caps do sound different based on the type of dielectric they are made of/with. Some dielectrics perform that job more efficiently than others and that will affect how well the cap does its job. Changing a cap here or there I don't think makes a whole lot of difference. I prefer Mallory caps to Orange Drops but if all I have on hand in a given value is an Orange Drop I'll use it and it's no big deal. Take a black face Fender amp and shotgun it with OD caps and I can tell a difference and I won't like it. The next guy might love it.
Bluesbear makes a great point about high fidelity components in a low fidelity application. People are sometimes unhappy with current production components - output transformers in particular - because they are essentially "too good". That same effect can certainly happen with any component including capacitors. Metal film resistors are quieter in plate load applications but some people prefer to use carbon comps specifically for the opposite reason. It's all a big trade-off. If someone says they can hear the difference I believe them and more power to them.
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I think different types of caps do sound different based on the type of dielectric they are made of/with.
Of course, a cheap ceramic cap will be highly non linear, as will an electrolytic used for AC apps w/o any DC. Ditto for construction and overall quality: cheap Chinese film caps can be non linear and noisy, old-style PIO's are usually leaky an can wreak havoc.
But there are no subjective differences between broadly similar quality caps. None, zilch.
Anyone can do a double blind test and verify this.
Metal film resistors are quieter in plate load applications but some people prefer to use carbon comps specifically for the opposite reason.
Soime people like unreliable hissy amps. Others like root beer floats with their KFC double fat sandwich.
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Greasy fried chicken aside, I am wanting to set up a guitar clip to run some tests. Now, what would I put in it to help me hears any differences in caps?
Clean chords (full spectrum)
Hard pushed chords (power chords)
Some low note solo stuff
Some higher note solo stuff
what else?
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Others like root beer floats with their KFC double fat sandwich.
Git r done! :grin:
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Some people like unreliable hissy amps. Others like root beer floats with their KFC double fat sandwich.
I've got to draw the line when you disrespect a root beer float by tying it to a KFC "double fat sandwich"! In a double blind taste test, even anorexic models prefer root beer floats over non-fat yogurt!!! :wink:
That YouTube video is fantastic. I'd never thought about the importance of the room itself much, let alone the position of your ears inside that room. Adjusting EQ when the pedal in question isn't even in the signal chain? A couple of days ago I found myself asking "Why aren't the mids coming out more?" instead of "Why aren't the changed settings having any effect on my tone?"
Can you hear a difference between complete garbage cables and George L cables? Sure! Can you hear an improvement with "gold plated" contacts? If you really can, I'll buy them for you.
Carbon comp resistors act differently under large voltage swings compared to metal films (which are very stable). That's real "mojo" which can be measured... it just come with the potential cost of hisssss.
I believe that I can hear a difference between polystyrene Orange Drops and polyester Mallory 150s but do not know how much of the difference I hear is due to reading endlessly that there is a difference. I know I can't tell the difference between two decent quality polyster caps (e.g. Mallory 150s and Xicons like Doug sells).
The speaker, cabinet, tubes, output transformer, and component values are so much more important than which specific type or brand of component that all these debates about hi-$$$ power cables, caps, etc. make me dizzy, sick or worse.
If burning up your money on high dollar uber-caps makes you happy, just send it all to me or my family instead. We'll "burn" it for you! :grin:
Sorry for rambling,
Chip
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Gaz,Gaz,Gaz,
"Most would agree that pickups change the sound, maybe even more so than speakers, but coupling caps? I still don't buy it, literally. "
They can make or break an amp.I have changed coupling caps in many amps that the owners were ready to turf and the difference in tone was enough for them to want to keep the amp.
Big Daddy knows those differences.Many average players can't hear nothing,but a good player can hear and 'feel' the difference almost instantly.Some examples are:many 'orange drop' type caps are brighter and faster that caps like Mallory's.Paper in oils are clearer sounding and have a graininess to the tone that you cannot get with orange drops.Some caps like Xicons and mylar sound kind of dull to me.Not bad by any means,just dull.Less harmonics in the tone.
The only way to find out is to try them in an amp that you play every day.
But to say that one is 'better' than another is like saying I prefer Lindt chocolate to Cadbury chocolate.It depends on what you want to hear or even CAN hear.
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Anyone get a peek at what Dumble used/uses?
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what else?
I would add pink and white noise, plus a 1 KHz or so calibration tone in order to check levels.
Plus suitable software for your PC, Mac, Vax or C64.
Another good test is to compare the difference between two time-aligned and level-matched files...
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I have used the Mallory M150 and Sozo caps for a while now. I really cant hear a huge difference between them. There are too many other variables in every amp i have built weather it be using metal film or carbon comp resistors
I will say that though when i use Orangedrops for the PI coupling output stage i do hear a nicer sheen,mix what ever you want to call it
Mallory or Sozo caps throughout the entire amp but OD's for the PI output to the power tubes
This is all Marshall circuit related. Fender is another story / Also i am a firm believer now in using carbon comp resistors through out the signal path
I built a Champ 5F1 using half metal and half carbon film resistors / Sounded good. Then i changed all the resistors to carbon comps. I hear finer details in the notes and have more personal satisfaction in using carbon comps now
The cap thing though is ever changing from build to build. So i have to say for me personally the Mallorys do just a fine job as do the Sozos at less than half the price of the Sozos / F&T PS caps have done me good and i am happy using them
Carbon comps may be a little noisy but i think they are more noticable than most of the tone caps in the full mix / JMO
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Anyone get a peek at what Dumble used/uses?
Coupling caps are usually Sprague PS.
Plenty of pix here http://www.roblivesey.com/dumble
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lol geez guys
orange drops in the signal and sprague or FT's in the power rail have never failed to provide quality sound and "feel" in any amp i have ever done.
more over the "feel" or "touch responce" of a guitar amp stems from all the enteractions of power filtering, pt and ot give and take, signal transfer in the tubes,stage coupling and cathode bypasing, smoothies,resistance drift in resistor temps i.e. screens on power tubes, all the way to pick up and build type of guitar and the fingers fretting the fret board.
so no 2 amps are ever going give the same results no matter what type caps you use.
some may be close but are always different to some degree.
I just try to use what gives consistant,exceptable and reliable results. that has always been those mentioned above.
it is fun to try and recreate or emulate that mystical marshall major tone just before it went up in flames though lol!!!!!!!!!
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I use Mallory 150 and solen. I do remember also stated from plexi 50 I think ,, i had orangedrops in my favorite 79 marshall, output coupling caps. Still the best sounding amp to my ears. I think I am going to try them again in my next one.
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I will say that though when i use Orange Drops for the PI coupling output stage i do hear a nicer sheen,mix what ever you want to call it
Mallory or Sozo caps throughout the entire amp but OD's for the PI output to the power tubes
That's a pretty slick idea. I never considered using OD's in that position to exploit the one reason I'm not terribly fond of them. Good call.
There's a guy who frequented a.g.a on Usenet who rebuilds Deluxe Reverb amps from DRRI donors. He uses a practice he calls cap stacking - using two smaller values or two different caps to add to get the value you need and derive some sort of sonic mojo from the combination.
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I will say that though when i use Orange Drops for the PI coupling output stage i do hear a nicer sheen,mix what ever you want to call it
Mallory or Sozo caps throughout the entire amp but OD's for the PI output to the power tubes
That's a pretty slick idea. I never considered using OD's in that position to exploit the one reason I'm not terribly fond of them. Good call.
There's a guy who frequented a.g.a on Usenet who rebuilds Deluxe Reverb amps from DRRI donors. He uses a practice he calls cap stacking - using two smaller values or two different caps to add to get the value you need and derive some sort of sonic mojo from the combination.
Funny, I did the same thing on my Super Reverb build. Mostly Xicons with a couple of Mallories in the signal path except for PS Orange Drops for the PI->power tube coupling caps. I don't recall the reasoning behind the choice but the customer loves it.
Cheers,
Chip
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I don't recall the reasoning behind the choice but the customer loves it.
If the customer loves it, that's perfect.
:angel
(I do the same most of the time, depending on board space and more or less random selection in the parts bins. Mixing caps and resistors can also have an eye-pleasing effect if you pick the right color combinations)
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Mixing caps and resistors can also have an eye-pleasing effect if you pick the right color combinations
There you go! :grin:
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I built a Marshall 1987 plexi one week and i didnt have any Mallorys left for the PI coupling so i used a pair of .033 Orange Drops
I noticed the difference right off the bat. When i got my order of .022 Mallorys in i changed them out for the Mallory's again just out of habit
At that point i knew i was putting the OD's back in the PI output stage / Definetly worth listening to and keeping in the PI coupling
It's hard to break old ways of doing things and this is another one of those trial and error things
Turned out to be a good thing
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i just use quality parts, whatever brand they are. coupling caps are mostly NOS Tesla, philips and other european brands. filtercaps are brand new not too expensive ones, mostly 450V. i use whatever resitors i have, mostly 1/2W and 1W on the anodes. no carbon comps.
and the room you hear it in DOES matter. there are times that when working in theatre i hear the whistling high pitched noise of a spotlight (we use old dimmers). if you turn your head just the right way the sound can dissapear. that is not my imagination, it's the space i'm in, whavelength of the sound etc...
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You can build 2 identical amps with all identical components from same batches and they probably won't sound the same. They may (hopefully) both sound good, even great, but not quite the same. There is magic to this art! I sold a 1 channel BF Fender type amp to a jazz guy in Jersey City a couple years ago. It was almost all Xicon caps. He said it was the best amp he'd ever owned. I'm not saying Mallorys or ODs, etc, wouldn't have been different but maybe not as good for that particular casino jazzman. Who knows? "Better", "worse", even "different" tone is such a subjective thing, how can it really be quantified? I just know I get great results from good inexpensive caps. Hey, it worked for Fender, Trainwreak, D*mble. etc. I wont waste money on what I don't need. Of course, if they make a difference in someone elses design, then they make a diifierence. That's my point, actually. It's magic! I love that!!
Dave
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Funny, I did the same thing on my Super Reverb build. Mostly Xicons with a couple of Mallories in the signal path except for PS Orange Drops for the PI->power tube coupling caps. I don't recall the reasoning behind the choice but the customer loves it.
For clarity's sake the cap stacking guy actually uses 2 smaller caps in parallel where one cap would normally go. The two caps sum to give the value the one cap would provide and he chooses the two caps based on his own perceived sonic impressions of each cap. In theory I get his idea but in practice I'd have to hear it to believe it.
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We would need PRR here to mathamatically really break down the rate of any parallel cap effects in a PI
I have done it to slow down tremelos that were too fast but never anywhere else in a tube amp
That is interesting though to think that you may actually get some sag or magical good vibes from doing this
I would have to hear it as well. I think a scope would be needed to verify any such voodoo going on
I will try it. Maybe there is some electro magnetic coupling occuring between (2) caps paralled together that can be heard
Who knows
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You can build 2 identical amps with all identical components from same batches and they probably won't sound the same. They may (hopefully) both sound good, even great, but not quite the same. There is magic to this art! I sold a 1 channel BF Fender type amp to a jazz guy in Jersey City a couple years ago. It was almost all Xicon caps. He said it was the best amp he'd ever owned. I'm not saying Mallorys or ODs, etc, wouldn't have been different but maybe not as good for that particular casino jazzman. Who knows? "Better", "worse", even "different" tone is such a subjective thing, how can it really be quantified? I just know I get great results from good inexpensive caps. Hey, it worked for Fender, Trainwreak, D*mble. etc. I wont waste money on what I don't need. Of course, if they make a difference in someone elses design, then they make a diifierence. That's my point, actually. It's magic! I love that!!
Dave
yep I did this exact thing with two hot rodded 2204 type circuits. they sounded different. Drives me crazy..
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Dont forget the tubes - the tolerance between tubes is HUGE. Two amps with all the same other components, with each component hand checked will sound drastically different with different set of tubes.
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You can build 2 identical amps with all identical components from same batches and they probably won't sound the same. They may (hopefully) both sound good, even great, but not quite the same. There is magic to this art! I sold a 1 channel BF Fender type amp to a jazz guy in Jersey City a couple years ago. It was almost all Xicon caps. He said it was the best amp he'd ever owned. I'm not saying Mallorys or ODs, etc, wouldn't have been different but maybe not as good for that particular casino jazzman. Who knows? "Better", "worse", even "different" tone is such a subjective thing, how can it really be quantified? I just know I get great results from good inexpensive caps. Hey, it worked for Fender, Trainwreak, D*mble. etc. I wont waste money on what I don't need. Of course, if they make a difference in someone elses design, then they make a diifierence. That's my point, actually. It's magic! I love that!!
Dave
yep I did this exact thing with two hot rodded 2204 type circuits. they sounded different. Drives me crazy..
There is a scientific explanation I ran into somewhere (www.guitarnuts.com ???), so long as your using batches of parts with a wide tolerance. Most part are 20%; so a nominal 500K pot may actually be 400 - 600K, e.g. Filter caps and trannies can be off as much as 50% for some specs. These variations might cause audible tonal differences.
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JJ - your point about tolerances makes sense. If every resistor and cap throughout the amp is subject to just a 5% variation +/-, all those little changes are going to add up even in something as simple as a 5F2-A.
How precise are speakers in terms of each one sounding exactly the same? Don't know, but now I'm wondering...
Anyone who has experimented with substituting tubes knows that no two tubes are exactly the same in terms of tone (at least preamp tubes). Again, throw in 2 or 3 preamp tubes and you've got another multiplier of subtle differences.
Cheers,
Chip
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Sometimes I notice that people lump all orange drop type capacitors together, disregarding the different dielectric materials used.
Basically Orange Drops use either polyester or polypropylene.
These can either be film or metalized film.
The 6PS polyester caps are popular for the Dumble circuits because they are polyester 600v caps.
They seem to be a very good high voltage stable cap that offers good tone for these amps.
The 715P polypropylene are also used quite a bit in guitar amps.
Both of these are good DC coupling caps for guitar audio circuits.
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I did a very simple test on a BF champ clone. I took a turret strip and put all the caps I could find on it. It was a long strip and I think I ended up using 2 so there had to have been about 12+ different caps and they all measured close to .022mfd(except for some older caps I had). On the other end I just left the bare wire and used a clip with a wire on it connected to the gird resistor, then to the power tube. I would grab the clip and change caps really fast because they were so close together then play some. I knew after an hour or so my ears would be blown out and I would not be able to tell the difference. I learned that from recording. I did this again the next day or day after, it was a while ago so I'm not sure.
I was shocked, figuratively of course at the change in amp tone from one cap to another. I wrote it down (not in detail)and did not look at the paper again. I did the same test and jotted(really just a scribble not a long explanation) it down and the conclusions were the same with both tests. I had NO preconceived notions and although my first thoughts that maybe certain caps would sound better and they actually sounded worse. I thought PIO would be king and it was the worst one, 2 different manufacturers. The King was the Jupiter which had the good qualities of both the OD and Mallory. I also used a few other OD(714-715) types and yellow ones from other companies, all kinds, whatever is being sold from vendors like Doug and Ted Weber(he was alive at the time) and the older SOZO not the handmade ones. Each cap had a certain quality good and bad except the PIO and the ones from Ted which were Mallory 150 copies which were just bad. The Sozos were OK and so was the ones I call chiclets that Doug sells(Xicon)were better than I thought but had NO character, kind of flat. The best were the OD 715 and Mallory 150s, the Jupiter had the best of both. The Mallory was warmer and the highs were smoother but there was junk after the note a little unpleasant distortion, both ODs were great but the highs were harsh, but the sound was clear without the after taste. The Jupiter had the good qualities of both and I was shocked because I thought they were full of crap until tested them.
I then ordered a bunch and changed them out and each amp sounded a bit better overall. Most amps had a mix of OD and Mallory before I changed to Jupiters. I also use a lot of SOZO handmade caps and their blues are a bit closer to the original blue caps than the Jupiters for a true BF fender sound. I think the Jupiters might be closer to the Astrons. In that test were some old caps to but they were not .022 so I did not really include them. They did sound better then most of the other caps except the OD, Mallory and Jupiter.
I suggest everybody just try it and see for themselves before they come to any conclusions. In fact I think I will try it again just to make sure I'm not full of crap.
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I have multiple amps out there and in my own stable running just fine with two photoflash caps in series for the first cap off of the diodes. I was poor and junker disposable cameras were free! I haven't seen a single cap failure and I haven't noticed a tonal difference from more "normal" caps.
I recently purchased 10, 22, 47, and 100nF caps from digikey in lots of 100. They're epcos brand and I purchased them because they're tiny and they're blue (which clearly looks and sounds better) and they only have 10mm lead centers. I have an abundance of hollow and double turrets that are smaller than the normal ones we see in guitar amps. These caps are a perfect fit for compact/carefully arranged amplifier designs.
As an example- a plexi board using my tiny caps and layout is only 7 inches long, perfect for small lower power amps. The original, by comparison, was around 10 and a half inches long. For a simple circuit like a plexi it's not such a big deal. When you're trying to pack reverb and multiple channels onto a small board, small caps can be a lot more helpful. As long as your turrets are 1.5 inches or less apart, they're perfect for hoffman and hiwatt style layouts which always seem to make people feel wamr and fuzzy about the inside of their amp.
For the record- I hate that 715p orange drops are so huge. Why can't they make something a touch smaller that's more easy to use? Oh wait, they do- They're called Xicon caps. CDE also has similar part that they advertise as a "better design" because of its improved performance and smaller size. Seems like a no-brainer!
jamie
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In fact I think I will try it again just to make sure I'm not full of crap.
Please do a proper *double blind* test.
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Big Daddy, Were the PIO's you tested the Russian NOS K40's or K42's?
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Please do a proper *double blind* test.
I think you should make that your signature, just to keep from having to type it all the time! :laugh:
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Please do a proper *double blind* test.
I expect that most will just swap in another type of cap, and play the guitar and see how it sounds. Basically little or no control.
*sigh* science and engineering out the window.
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I expect that most will just swap in another type of cap, and play the guitar and see how it sounds. Basically little or no control.
This might be where the 're-amp' concept would help. Record some representative guitar using a DI box (or whatever) straight into a decent recording device. Then play it back through a re-amp device (like this http://www.reamp.com/) so you can repeat the very same source after you swap the caps.
You could even do a kind of subtractive difference between each recording to find the changes in response.
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You could even do a kind of subtractive difference between each recording to find the changes in response.
That's an interesting idea!
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This might be where the 're-amp' concept would help. Record some representative guitar using a DI box (or whatever) straight into a decent recording device. Then play it back through a re-amp device (like this http://www.reamp.com/) so you can repeat the very same source after you swap the caps.
Even easier if you have a loop pedal, which is what I do.
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I happen to be a very scientific person and believe in science. But guitar paying is not science for me it's all about feel, I'm first and foremost a blues player. All the engineer types miss the point, you're too caught up in technical issues. Yes the double blind test is the standard and if it were a drug or a true scientific test I would say by all means use the double blind method.
But this is guitar playing and it seems people forget that and become more into the hi-fi aspect. I plug my guitar in and I turn the volume to 10, I turn my guitar to 10 and then I wail out grinding each note with my finger harder and harder into the fretboard. Then I rip some faster riff off and go back into trying to make my guitar talk from my heart. That's not science......so when I change the clip to another cap either the amp sings my tune or it doesn't and I can hear every little nuance.
I totally understand what they were saying at that symposium and they were correct. But there is that one guy who can hear the difference as the man said. Am I that guy? I'd like to think so, after playing Fender and Marshall amps of almost every kind for 40 years. Owning countless Fender but mostly Gibson guitars, countless LesPauls and ES-335s, flying Vs, SGs and you name it. I read a story that was corroborated about SRV, while recording he was using a bunch of amps as usual, hooked together and he could hear exactly which amp wasn't right. He said so and so amp isn't working right and he was right. How did he know all through that noise that it was that particular amp? I bet because when he went to bend a note and something did not happen that usually does and he knew right away which the culprit was. SRV had no technical knowledge at all but his sound is one of the most copied, as is EVH. And I bet EVH can tell which cap sounds better for him without a double blind test.
So do your double blind test but if you do, pick out the best guitar players you know and don't leave it to people who build amps but to people who use them and play at a high level. Same as race cars, the engineers don't drive like a professional driver does and I bet he doesn't need a double blind test to tell him which suspension/tire/gear combination is right for that track in that weather condition.
When CBS bought Fender and all the old timers left including anybody who actually played guitar their amps became more and more toneless and horrible. I talked to a salesman who was there in those days. He was working for Randall amps at the time and said as much basicially. Eventually nobody would buy one and they went out of business for a while. Even hiring some hot shot amp gurus did not help, they made things worse. Because they did not hire one guitar player as a consultant, they hired engineers and amp gurus. Without engineers nothing can be built. It's the engineer who builds things FOR people not indifferent and perfunctory to them.
Even if you record your tests and do everything scientificially correct it doesn't mean anything because y'all missed the point. For a guitar player it's about the feel to the sound. You can't record that, it's a personal thing that each player feels. If you can't grasp what I am talking about my guess is that your guitar playing ability is limited. No big deal just it is what it is man.
One PIO was a Rusky and the other wasn't, it was more expensive and I was a bit pissed about it, I think I threw it away in disgust or put it in one of my guitars??????.
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:rolleyes:
No room for being an engineer/science dude and a guitar player in that one!
Actually the thing that annoys me most about your post is that your opinion is just as bad as the scientific types who say that objective test are the only way to go. It is close minded. Have you ever done a double blind test? You say that the scientific types are missing the point and their guitar playing is limited. Open up your mind man, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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For your amusement:
Closed minded scientific type:
"If you cant measure it/prove it, it does not exists and never will exist"
Closed minded artsy type:
"If you cant feel it/hear it there is something wrong with you"
All close minded types:
"I am right, you are wrong and you will never be able to convince me otherwise"
Open minded types:
"I guess you are all right, and you are all wrong, Me too. ...so if I am wrong, that means..."
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"If you can't repeatedly find a subjective difference in a proper double blind test, then you can be pretty sure that there's no difference"
:angel
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I happen to be a very scientific person and believe in science. But guitar paying is not science for me it's all about feel, I'm first and foremost a blues player. All the engineer types miss the point, you're too caught up in technical issues.
Nobody is talking about "belief" or getting "caught up in technical issues". And I'm quite sure nobody will argue that guitar playing is not about "feel".
To test pretty much anything (and in my day job that is software, but it applies to amps too) one requires as much repeatability and determinism as you can afford. In other words, if you change too much at once between tests, how do you know what's making a difference? This was a discussion about removing a variable in the equation, namely "they guy playing the guitar" so you can focus on the results.
Quantifying the results to make them objective is an entirely different matter.
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I think people miss my point.
There is room for both and both have merit. It is knowing when and what is to be used were.
The mind of the engineer say, hey I have an extra triode and a place for 2 switches. What can I put in there?
The mind of the bean counter says why is there room make it smaller and cheaper. Who designed this thing?
The mind of the player says I just want an on/off switch and no more than 3 knobs. I just want to plug in and play not take a hour to find a good sound.
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Quote:"I totally understand what they were saying at that symposium and they were correct. But there is that one guy who can hear the difference as the man said. Am I that guy? "
I hear the differences too.So do the players who play the amps I mod.
when you get a comment like "I was going to sell the amp before you changed the coupling caps.Now it's my main amp and I'm keeping it forever"
What did I do?Changed out some coupling caps in a Super Reverb.They were new polyester 'Mac' branded caps.I installed a complete set of Mojo Dijons.
I heard the difference immediately and so did the customer.He has owned and played that amp since 1969.He has had caps installed but none of the caps came even remotely close to the Dijons.He tried for years to like that amp and nothing ever made it 'magic'.
I did nothing else but change the coupling caps.
There are differences and they are audible.Snake oil applies when the claims are unrealistic and the prices are exorbitant.
That does not apply to the Mojo Dijons at all.
Phsycoacoustics? Maybe.More than likely not.
But would you trust a guy who's nickname is 'phsyco'?
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For your amusement:
Closed minded scientific type:
"If you cant measure it/prove it, it does not exists and never will exist"
Oxymoron. No TRUE scientific mind would say anything like that. They would say, "Show me the objective evidence and I'll believe it." By definition, a truly scientific mind is an open mind. If its not open, its not a scientific mind. That doesn't mean there aren't people out there who THINK they are scientific who don't have open minds, of course. That said, when there are large amounts of objective evidence that supports a theory, it will take extraordinary evidence to contradict.
Gabriel
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Same as race cars, the engineers don't drive like a professional driver does and I bet he doesn't need a double blind test to tell him which suspension/tire/gear combination is right for that track in that weather condition.
I hope no drivers, team owners or their shop crews see this post.
Coming from Charlotte, NC, most of the NASCAR teams are based right north of me, in/around Mooresville and Concord, NC. Guess who builds all their cars? Guys and gals hired who graduated the motorsports engineering major at the Univ of North Carolina. They are some seriously fanactical mechanical engineers, and there's no guesswork involved in what they do, except for happy accidents that teach them something they never would have thought of on their own.
Naturally the driver has input. But there are scientific reasons why things work for them, and they don't leave it to chance. The car has to be perfect so that the driver just has to show up and do his part.
And did you know your speedometer perform a calculus operation? It takes the angular position of the axle, which (when the tire diameter is considered) indicates position. The the speedometer circuit takes the derivative of the position information fed to it and indicates your velocity (miles per hour, or change of position for a unit change of time). You and I don't care that it's calculus, but the first person to figure it out sure cared.
Of course you can hear and feel a difference with different parts. I do too. But I'm coming around more to FYL's mindset to make sure that psychology doesn't trick me into thinking something is better. That's because I bought into the hype and marketing when I was starting out and didn't know better, and have since seen that some of it was right, some wrong, and some outright lie. There's a lot of bogus stuff out there when it comes to guitars, amps and audio.
I guess the best statement of how I feel about this stuff is that science, engineering and math is present all the time, even if one chooses to ignore it. But quantifying and calculating allows you to arrive at a workable solution faster that blind experiment. The key is to still retain some feeling of the artistic, so that when you have a solution given through calculation, you listen to it and can tell if it sounds like crap. And when it does, the science will inform your decision about how to change it to make it better.
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For your amusement:
Closed minded scientific type:
"If you cant measure it/prove it, it does not exists and never will exist"
Oxymoron.
Not at all - it says "closed minded" scientific type. "open minded" scientific types are... ah... open minded.
BTW. Lots of people refute lots of things when in the face of overwhelming evidence. Think of your favorite recent "war".
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Not at all - it says "closed minded" scientific type.
My point is simply that if you have a closed mind, you don't have a scientific mind - by definition. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't people who THINK their mind is scientific who are closed minded, simply that they are wrong. An open mind is the most important point of the scientific method.
Richard Dawkins tells a great story about a professor of his who had spent his whole career studying and professing a hypothesis (a rather obscure piece of cellular biology - truly not important to the story). A scientist from the US came over to Oxford and gave a speech completely destroying the professor's hypothesis. The professor stood up after the talk, walked up to the American guy, shook his hand, and said, "Thank you. I've been wrong for 20 years."
The students in the audience stood up and applauded, because THAT is what the scientific mind is all about. If you don't have that, you only THINK you have a scientific mind.
Even there, not everyone has a scientific mind all the time, or on every topic.
Gabriel
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Right on. :grin:
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Right on. :grin:
+1 :grin:
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I was thinking more in terms of drag racing. But yes the engineers have it without doubt but on the track it's the driver who is feeding input for the engineers to make changes unless they have got to the point now that they have senors to do that. I have not followed motorsports for years.
If indeed the car is not handling correctly it's the driver who is the one who says so. The engineers are not going to tell him it's a figment of their imagination. Which is what some people are basically saying here and in other places about coupling caps. It's all in your mind, it is not because I can feel the difference as though a driver can feel it on the track. It's called feedback and I'm not talking about the type that makes an amp squeal. It's the feedback you get from your senses.
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The engineers are not going to tell him it's a figment of their imagination. Which is what some people are basically saying here and in other places about coupling caps.
No one here is saying not to use your ears or your senses. All people are saying: try using your ears and your senses with a double blind test.
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I'm disabled and can hardly do the test let alone make it scientific, shoot I can hardly walk more than a few feet now without having to rest...LOL.... :laugh: :huh:
I really am a scientific person and having had a sound company and done some recording by all I means I truly believe that science wins out in the end. BUT I have worked with Prima Donna vocalists who freakout when the mic does not reproduce their voice as they want to hear it exactly. I tried my hardest to accommodate them because I understood that it was a matter of feel and very unscientific.
You could do all the pink noise, white noise and even computerized EQ of the room and the system and you still get it doesn't sound right and they are correct. Same for recording, you must get the right mic and pre for the persons voice and what you hear might not record the same. In fact most of the time what you hear does not come out the same once recorded so how do you make the vocalist hear themselves like they want to in the headset yet record them with the best possible sound quality? I all too much understand the situation.
And I'll say all the double blind tests and recording doesn't mean anything because of the degradation of the sound itself by the time it goes to the end game and the person in the listening mode. All the nuances will be gone by then. As the signal gets recorded and compressed more and more by whatever device the signal is going through you will lose the pure sound that was made at the speaker or in that room. A wrong mic or too much compression will ruin it all and so that test will be totally unscientific.
It's kind of like the test I read about trying to explain why you cannot test quantum theory's. It has to do with a cat and a box, it's called Schrödinger's cat.
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scientist didnt design leo's amps nor any other makers amps! the were audio design engineer's not scientist!
the motivator for thier designs were costs. they selected the cheapest part that could provide it's function within acceptable limits.
so you got the cheapest caps you could get that still maintained a certain set of performance characteristics even in the most holy of all amps!
the electricaly perfect circuit is not always the best sounding circuit. (if this were true tube amps would be scoffed at and trashed) the digital circuitry of today is much closer to the perfect cicuit design yet IMHO sounds like sh--!
the ceramic caps in the old fender PI's, the not quite right primary empeadences of th primarys in the OT's of all old amps, these little not so perfect circuits, plus many more non perfect circuit designs (vaccume tubes themselves!) are what give the tube amp "magic"
it's not "magic" at all!and certainly is not due to solely one type of capacitor!
its just a ballance of give and take through out the amplifier. when you hear or see the effects of a componant in the circuit you have to decide if it will compliment or degrade the post sections of the design and 9 times out of 10 you find that out through trial and error not
"scientific explainations or complex calc formulla's"
you simply replace that part with another cheaper or more expensive one
lol
i know there are some very good EE types here and i respect thier knowledge and thier dedication to helping us on this form,
but i dont think we have any scientist here! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BUT I have worked with Prima Donna vocalists who freakout when the mic does not reproduce their voice as they want to hear it exactly.
Was their range Capricciosità-puerilità-coloratura?
:wink:
It's kind of like the test I read about trying to explain why you cannot test quantum theory's. It has to do with a cat and a box, it's called Schrödinger's cat.
Schrödinger's paradox is a reductio ad absurdum. I like Everett's decoherent interpretation, multiverse vs. universe, etc.
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the electricaly perfect circuit is not always the best sounding circuit.
Of course, but you should fully understand how a circuit works before determining why it sounds good...
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Big Daddy:
you have missed the whole idea. Doing a double blind test does not mean you have to record anything. All it means is that you, nor the tester know what is under test until after the test has been complete. Perhaps look it up on wikipedia or some other source for a formal definition.
Take your favorite amp. Remove the cap that you think is going to affect the tone of your amp. Install a substitution box. Call little johnny from next door. Get him to twist the knob. Go grab your guitar, plug it in. Have little johnny put the knob to one position. You play a bunch and write down your feelings. No looking at the knob! Have little johnny twist the knob. Do it a bunch of times - more the better. Have him put the knob in the same position too - but don't let him tell you that.
(sheesh that reads like kiddy porn)
Once you do this a bunch, look at your results. It would be interesting to see if you were consistent or not. Also it'd be interesting to see what caps you seem to prefer.
See, this DOES NOT rule you you playing or feeling anything! What it does though, is it rules out you thinking "oh man, now I am listening to my $600 paper and oil, super mojo caps - and I can really
feel it baby". A cheapo ceramic cap has just as much possibility of sounding great as does the audiophile caps.
This also rules out Johnny tainting the results, because he wont smirk at you when he switches on the ceramic cap, or chuckle when you try out the Mallory 150.
So see! We can have a happy marriage of the two! You can play, feel and be a scientist too!
Just because you don't want to or can't do the test, does not make the test useful.
robertlatham1:
ahh read your history. Leo got his designs from RCA and Radiotron. Believe me, a few scientists and engineers were involved there.
Again, no one is talking about a "perfect circuit". All that was said is to try a double blind test. And yes, you can do this a cap at a time.
Go on, give it a try, nothing to be scared of. You might like it. (if I start to call you johnny, watch out!)
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This also rules out Johnny tainting the results, because he wont smirk at you when he switches on the ceramic cap, or chuckle when you try out the Mallory 150.
Yes, but the test would still be technically single blind - better than sighted/biased but not as rigorous as double blind.
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(if I start to call you johnny, watch out!)
LOL i have been put im much worse catagories lol
I agree with the test and methods!
I just dont think audio amplification is rocket science. complex, yes and i certainly dont understand everything there is to know about,
but rocket science? no it's not.
audio amplification is acctualy one of the first things taught in electronics courses because of it's simplicity.
now I will shut up because I'm still learning the "simple" audio amplifier design LMAO!
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Tubesornothing I know what a double blind is and I wasn't just talking about that I was talking about recording it as mentioned by other posters.
I use the same settings on every amp I ever played. If those settings did not work the amp did not work. As SRV said he wishes his amps had one knob and an on/off switch.
That's exactly what I did, I did not really notice what cap was there until I looked down. I was working fast as not to notice. But next time I am going to put tape over it and have someone else number it. So I will not know which cap is being used. But that's why I repeated the test again to make sure I wasn't making things up. I have reached a certain point in my life when I do not lie to myself, I trust myself to be totally natural about anything. In all aspects to my life I have learned to use logic and not emotion to make rational judgments so I do not have any preconceived or prejudicial thoughts. of course this in the past has ruined all my relationships with women... :grin:.
In reality the caps I expected to sound great sounded like crap and the over hyped ones that I expected to sound like everything else sounded great. I was shocked. Those thoughts were NOT preconceived because they did not change the outcome, I was going from what I read from others. It was as though I were 2 people, I have the ability to be totally objective. I did the test with a totally clear and an almost naive outlook. I thought to myself I have no idea which is going to sound better because I never did this before. Like I said I was shocked because the outcome was just not what I expected. I even tried in some amps to use different caps together to achieve a certain value so that I would get the best of both caps. It didn't work that way for some reason.
I wish some other would do this test.
And the first people to design this stuff were scientists. By doing these tests we are being scientists. You do not need a degree from somewhere to be a scientist.
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One more time:
Everything that has been said is correct. You're all right!
The point is that one person's "this sounds like crap" is another's "weeping for joy, finally found the perfect sound after all these years". And I can tell you from experience, the same guitarist's "perfect sound" can differ between 2 seperate bands.
Within a truly subjective situation, "different", "better", and "worse" are just words waiting for each individual to decide for him or herself. Which brings me back to the concept of magic. You may argue with the word but to me, anything that is different for each person and yet is still the same should probably be the legal definition of the term "magic".
Dave
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scientist didnt design leo's amps nor any other makers amps!
Well, strictly speaking, the scientists/engineers are RCA designed all of the early Fender amps.
Gabriel
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Well what about Marconi and Tesla? :smiley:
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Well, strictly speaking, the scientists/engineers are RCA designed all of the early Fender amps.
the western electric circuit was basis for allmost all early designs includeing Mr. fenders.
and once again
the western electric designers were engineers not SCIENTIST!
all past and present audio designs are based solely on plagerized concepts of the western electric design!
yes tesla and marconi were scientist with far more depth then just audio amplification.
these guys truely dug into Quantum theories and deeper theorectical mathmatics!
many of tesla scientific studies still baffle the modern day scientist and electrical engineers!
audio was a simple by-product of what he was trying to achieve. Time and space constantance were ,more over, where his major studies were, which are far more complex then simple audio amplification could ever be.
no matter how much you argue the fact, audio electronics egineering is not a scientific matter. it is simple electronics and some of the simplest form of electronics. the electronics involved in micro processing completely dwarfs the complexity of audio design.
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*sheesh* :rolleyes: this is all getting to bit a bit much...
I am going back to working on amps and playing guitar. I'll do what I do, you'll do what you do.
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So I guess the obvious question is , are these good caps for amps or not :laugh:
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Well, strictly speaking, the scientists/engineers are RCA designed all of the early Fender amps.
the western electric circuit was basis for allmost all early designs includeing Mr. fenders.
and once again
the western electric designers were engineers not SCIENTIST!
all past and present audio designs are based solely on plagerized concepts of the western electric design!
yes tesla and marconi were scientist with far more depth then just audio amplification.
these guys truely dug into Quantum theories and deeper theorectical mathmatics!
many of tesla scientific studies still baffle the modern day scientist and electrical engineers!
audio was a simple by-product of what he was trying to achieve. Time and space constantance were ,more over, where his major studies were, which are far more complex then simple audio amplification could ever be.
no matter how much you argue the fact, audio electronics egineering is not a scientific matter. it is simple electronics and some of the simplest form of electronics. the electronics involved in micro processing completely dwarfs the complexity of audio design.
I don't actually disagree with you, but there is one way to look at it differently. I heard a scientist say this once, "Doing something the first time is science. Doing it the second time is engineering. Doing it the third time is manufacturing." I'm not sure that's quite right, but I like the quote!
Gabriel
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As a former engineering student, engineering is probably best defined as the practical application of science and mathematics. Or, said another way, utitlizing science and mathematics to solve a problem.
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Well, strictly speaking, the scientists/engineers are RCA designed all of the early Fender amps.
I don't actually disagree with you, but there is one way to look at it differently. I heard a scientist say this once, "Doing something the first time is science. Doing it the second time is engineering. Doing it the third time is manufacturing." I'm not sure that's quite right, but I like the quote!
Gabriel
Great quote and very true :grin:
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I heard a scientist say this once, "Doing something the first time is science. Doing it the second time is engineering. Doing it the third time is manufacturing." I'm not sure that's quite right, but I like the quote
great quote! i agree with that statement 100%
Im not trying to downplay anyone here. you guys are all great!
PRR and HBP, with a few others, are some of the most educated individuals i have met through these forums and I totaly respect all you guy's knowledge and expierence. I didnt mean to hi-jack the thread, but I just found it a little odd to be acting as if audio amplificaftion and blind capacitor test was something of rocket science in nature.
I appolgize and will keep my opinions in such matters off of the boards.
respectfully
Robert
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Great post (ain't it fun how far into the barrow pit we fall from 'Sozo Electrolytics' :grin: ).
The creation of sound is pretty self expressive, personal. I am certainly wrong at least as often as I am right so how about this: If the older Fenders built with cheep cheep parts sound so good, why even bother with expensive high end caps. expensive OTs, etc? I guess it is because we can and the technology is available to either apply or ignore. My sound should be different than your sound. Double blind or not--and I can appreciate the effort to rid ourselves of self-deceit--if you can hear and feel the difference in coupling cap types or in PS electrolytics, what does it really matter?
Absoluetely no offense intended to anyone. Whether the 'world is flat'...or not...and it gives you the voice you seek, seems to me that at the end of the day, that is all that matters. We are fortunate to have options. Regards
dennis
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You know what's coming don't you?
SHUT UP AND PLAY!!! :laugh: :laugh:
But seriously, I truly wonder if most of us would even hear a difference.
Say you have four different type caps. They are all measured and for this purpose all have the same value.
The voltage ratings are all the same.
In fact, every measurable value would ideally be the same or within 5%.
From the cheapest Chinese $.02 film cap to the most expensive $25 audiophile film cap.
For this test I think it would be best to limit it to five caps, because after a while I think your brain would try to work too hard to hear differences.
Then they are put on a rotary switch installed in a box so your hands don't effect the capacitance and short leads are ran inside the amp to say, an interstage coupler between V1 and V2 of an amp unfamiliar to you, or some other agreed upon spot in the circuit but I think a coupling cap is a good spot.
The amp should be a high quality amp and preferably not a pcb amp, don't want to open that can of worms up...
Now you obscure the amp from view and face the loudspeaker(s).
You are playing a guitar of your own and know what to expect from it.
The amp volume is turned up but not uncomfortably loud.
The person sitting with the amp turns the dial and gives you a nod.
He may or may not actually turn it. But records your opinion of each nod.
I really wonder if there would be that many audible differences.
I would be totally interested in the results.
Because on amp forums, you will hear usually one or two of the guys that seem to have a lot of experience tweaking amp tone exclaim the virtues of Cap A or Cap B with flowery adjectives that lead you to believe they are the best thing since sliced bread.
Hey, they block DC and pass AC.
But how they sound while doing that is what we're after.
Did anybody happen to see this? :huh:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2232581
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http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2232581[I/i]
Thank GOD we are all mature adults and can respect others here!
I realy dont think he was truely the owner of Sozo. The owners of company's of that size and repatation dont hang out with us and let there little secrets out on tube amp forums :laugh:
but \
then again they could be here amongst us stealing our ideas and profiting off of our far superior designs!
WTF! I'm thinking law suite :laugh: :laugh:
OK OK IM SHUTTING UP AND PLAYING MY AMPS AS LOUD AS I CAN
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Breaking news in the world of Physics:
Latest news from Cern, the tone particle has been found!!!!! It's called the Clapton boson particle and was found when Eric Clapton plugged a 1959 Les Paul cherry sunburst guitar with original PAF pickups into a 1965 Fender Super Reverb amp. The electrons from the coupling caps were transfered into the Large Hadron Collider. Along with the Clapton Boson tone particle was the BBK Quark. Short for the B.B. King Quark which was discovered milliseconds before the Clapton Boson, although it was said to have a cleaner/clearer and longer existence. There were many particles not yet named and some other particles which were rather troublesome problematic and caused damage by colliding with the good tone particles. One of these now called negative tone particles was named the Ted Nugent particle which collided with and destroyed some of the good tone particles instantly. :cry:
This was the highest energy experiment ever done to date. To get the correct electrons it was made sure that the Blue Molded capacitors were used, other caps could not produce the correct electrons for the experiment. This is the first time electrons were used instead of protons. In trying to eliminate the negative Nugent type particles the last magnet in line will be changed from ceramic to an alnico A5 then A2 for the next set of tests. Eventually both the A3 & A4 magnets will also be tested for tone changes.
These tests will be published in Tonequest magazine and other guitar periodicals. These tests should lead to a unified blues theory of music.
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Breaking news in the world of Physics:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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OMG! LMAO! too funny! I cant wait to get my copy of the lab results!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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lol lol lol I hear yea lol lol lol
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I hope everybody got a good laugh. Life is so serious these days a little humor should be injected into everything.