Speaker choice for a 1x12" AC30 / Trainwreck clone

[Jennings]

Hi folks!

I've put together a Ceriatone Rock-It (Trainwreck Rocket clone) in a Marshall 18w style 1x12" cab (made 2" deeper to give a bit more space, maybe a hint of extra bass and ensure the chassis clears any speaker I install.  To keep with the AC30 type vibe of the amp I've popped an alnico Celestion Gold in there (I'd had one spare that I used in a 2x12 cab for a bit, but had since replaced with something else), but even with its previous use and a fair bit of playing I find the tone a little sterile sounding.

Do you think I should stick with the gold and hope it breaks in after an extended period?  Or maybe its higher power rating (this it's about 50-60w or something...and the amp must be 30 - 40w) just makes it sound that way compared to the two Blues of the original AC30, which were slightly underated for the amp. What are people's suggestions for a single speaker that could cope with the Rock-It's output (must be similar to an AC30 of about 30 - 40w) and give a nice tone?  Maybe I should ditch alnico and opt for a smoother G12H or M perhaps?

Jennings

[jojokeo]

I know this is an old post but did you do anything yet Jennings? I think the Gold needs to be pushed to get it going and get the tone otherwise use a blue. How loud do you play most of the time?

[Jennings]

Weirdly I was just thinking about this again on my way into work this morning!  The amp's my main go-to for both small practice and gigs.  Thing is that I think you're right when you say the Gold has to be driven quite hard to get the tone.  It sounds it's bast (which still is a bit more sterile and harsh than a Blue) when the amp's on its 30w (ish) full power setting at gigs and cranked up.  On the half power setting in the studio the amp's lacking that organic and woody sound.  Shame really, as the thing I like about blues and AC30s is that they sound great at any volume setting.

I've tried a 1970s 16 ohm 75hz Celestion G12H, and that's not bad.  Lovely tone, but not really what I'm after with this one...a bit too 'muffled' by comparison.  Probably a combination of the lower sensitivity and magnet type etc.  Still pondering whether I can get a good all-rounder speaker from somewhere with the alnico sensitivity and response, but that works at all volume levels.  I once had a Jensen Neo 100w that gave a great organic tone in a little 10w combo, believe it or not!

[jojokeo]

I think we may have a similar taste for speakers? Saying this, I think I know the speaker you'll love? You really should get yourself a Weber alnico 12a125a - 30watt. I have a 20watt one and it's about as sweet and as good a performer all around as you can get IMHO. I keep this in a cab that I use for testing, tweaking, and comparing my many amps and various speakers with. It's really the baseline or benchmark litmus test speaker & cab I use in comparing these other things to and with. I could give you adjectives like punch, clarity, smooth, sensitive, woody. etc... but they all seem to apply to this speaker. Don't get a 1" or 11/2" cone either, get the 11/4" one - for some reason, for me atleast - this hits the mark perfectly. The "a" at the end is the one w/ the ribbed curved seamed cone. This is the cone that gives that woody/reedy tone also in the description. If you get it and like it, please let me know and I can say "I told you so" :)
 
I've had the celestion Gold and I've got a couple Blues still as they are a great speaker but they also are kind of a one trick poney but they do have a great sound too. When I say this, I have many amps and speakers that I mix and match everything with. I'm not always after that Celestion Blue sound but nothing hardly compares if that's what you need or want. I've got too many speakers to list and/or have had many others. You simply can't wrap your ears around something until you've heard it live and in person. Sound samples don't any speaker justice good or bad.

[Jennings]

Wow!  Sound like you might be on to something there...and really handy to get the advice of someone who's not afraid to experiment with speakers and who doesn't just shove a Vintage 30 into everything!  Haha!!!  I've usually been fairly baffled by the range of Weber options, and haven't had the chance to hear many of them, so it's useful to get a bit of direction when it comes to narrowing down the tone I like.  You'd go the way of a sort of vintage Jensen inspired alnico then over the blue/silver Celestion types Weber do?  Probably on to something there...that sort of early guitar speaker alnico tone is probably the response I'm after rather than your big, heavy compression of higher powered Celestion types under massive gain.  What about doping?  Would you go light, medium or heavy?  Light to keep the vintage vibe going, or medium to give a bit more support for the higher vol levles etc from a 30w amp into one 12" speaker?  I'm thinking heavy might be too far to go?

[jojokeo]

I've used Vintage 30's before but I also like different things for different applications and amplifiers. A bandmate threw one in his BFDR and the tone is unreal in his amp. Maybe it's not for everybody but it is a pretty good all around speaker actually. Nothing is like a Blue though except I've been smitten w/ the heritage greenback 20w G-12M. The cheaper 25watters are cheap immitations, the G-12H heritage is too bright and doesn't do distortion very well, the Gold didn't work even in a Mesa Boogie MarkIV when pushed so the jury is still out on that one for me.
I had a Vintage 30 in a small 6v6 jcm800-ish amp and replaced it w/ an Emminence Wizard which sounds even better and is also more versitile, IMHO.

I generally like the ribbed cone versions of Weber speakers w/ no or only light dope. Higher powered and high gain playing volumes you likely should go w/ med to heavy doped surrounds. I love mainly the Vintage and British/Blue dog/pup lines' speakers.

I've used ToneTubby, Jensen, and many in the Emminence line also and the Emmi's are actually a very good speaker in many cases it's just fitting the right one in the right amp and application. I have no experience w/ WGS' speakers but I suspect it won't be too long before those get a try eventually as I've heard many good things about them. Good luck on your tone quest.

[Jennings]

I find V30s very hard sounding treble based speakers...but maybe they suit a darker sounding amp with a good low end?  Never tried one in a Fender style before...but might be a reason the boutique boys seem to like them in souped up F style amps.  Obviously good for metal too for thr definition.  I do really love the 20w G12M!!!  Although I found the cheapo 25w reissues do make for a good speaker in amps like the reissue Vox AC30s (which are a completely different sounding beast to the JMI AC30s!).  I do have a soft spot for 70s G12 M and H for general Marshall style purposes, and genaral applications with old Selmers and some of the heads I've got.  All the modern Celestions do seme very bright and cutting to me...as you find the G12H Heritage.  The 70s ones can be had cheaply and don't have the same treble problem the new ones do...although maybe some of that's the years of playing in and age effect?!  I've had a few good Fanes too...they're often overlooked.  Not had too much Emminence experience as they tend to be too expensive when compared with most other brands here in the UK.  Quite fancy giving some a try some time.  Taydens also seem to have a good reputation, and do a few alnico versons too.

Think I'll give the Weber a shot then...you've convinced me!!!  Might err on the side of medium doping just in case.  I'll let you know my findings!!!  Thanks...and watch this space!!!

[jojokeo]

Didn't know you were on the other side of the pond, too bad the Emmi's are expensive for you as they are nice for the most part w/out the high-end ice pick but is still well present on many models (but not all). I recently came into a 10" Ram Rod after really liking the Red Fangs. I have one in a 12" 5E3-ish custom that's not really much of a 5E3 anymore for the 12 and a custom dual ef86/6v6 that has a 10" in it and they both sound unbelievable w/ those speakers.

Well, the amp I put the Ram Rod in had a Jensen p10Q, then a Weber blue pup, then a Tone Tubby, all okay but the Ram Rod really blew me away over all of these. It's got a sound that's hard to describe except I kept playing it again and again longer and longer. I tried a few other amps into it and the same thing was happening. So this replaced the Tubby and the others and I think finally that speaker has a permanent home. This amp is an ef86>12at7 CF>el84 and it rips now better than ever.

BTW, I was practicing last night going from the 12a125a switch into the 25w greenback and kept going back into the Weber again. :) Thinking of our conversation..."yep, this thing is just so good!"

[Jennings]

Now, funny you should mention 10" speakers...I've got a little custome 1-2watt amp built with a 10" speaker that I'm still not convinced with yet.  It's kind of a mini Marshall in amp design...although not as high a gain as you'd imagine a modern M-type to be.  More a great little amp to crank at home.  Currently got a 10" Jensen P10R in there, which is breaking in nicely as I use the little thing for my 2-4hr weekly band prac with a bassist and key player currently.  For a modern Jensen it's not bad...but I was thinking it could be improved upon...now you've started me wondering!!!!

OK, I've taken the plunge!!!  Just ordered a 30w 12a125a light dope from Weber!!!  Got to be worth chucking a bit of money with the decent reviews it seems to get, and your recommendation.  Can't do any worse than the Gold, which to my mind I still haven't really found a use for...it's not even blown me away in closed back or 2x12 formats yet.  I'll let you know when it arrives and what I think of it as I play it in.  Oh, and I've ordered it in red! Haha!!!  To match the tolex of my combo.  If it rocks as much as you say I might be phasing out my pile of G12 M and H too!!!

[Jennings]

Quick update!

My lovely shiney red Weber 30w 12a125a has arrived and is installed in my 1x12" AC30 type...it'll get its first soundcheck tonight at my band's practice session, so I'll give first impressions in due course.  Can't wait!

[Jennings]

Wow!!!  What a speaker and amp combo!!!  Cheers for the tip off...the amp really has come to live with that Weber in it.  no longer sounds sterile and harsh.  It's now got much more of a woody and organic edge to the sound and perfectly represents all the subtle changes in playing feel and dynamics.  I'm very impressed!  Might try it in some of the other combos and amps I have.  Bit pricey with the shipping for me to just get a truck load sent over to the UK, but for some applications I think it's worth it when you find the speaker that's just right.

[jojokeo]

I just happened to stumble back onto this one and glad I did. It's nice to hear your positive feedback and that you like the speaker! You described the things I like about it to which confirms my thoughts / feelings on it. It also has a clarity, transparancy, and sweet break-up too when pushed. Plus you don't have to wait for a break-in period hoping things will finally be what you're hoping for. All in all, you know if the speaker is right or not almost immediately.

Glad everything worked out for you and hopefully you're still happy with it 2 or 3 months later?!?

Joe

[duke of earl]

Jennings- Weber is having a sale on their Legacy's right now for 99.00. I just put 2 in one of my builds and they sound big for clean and buttery for lead. They have a real powerful tone and I love them better than my california alnico's. I would at least try one and see for yourself. Best speaker I have tried to date.

[spacelabstudio]

Lurking pays off.  I bought a Weber 12a125a 30W after reading the raves in this thread.  Put it in my Gibson Scout.  I have not been able to stop playing.  Can't describe the tone in any meaningful way.  Just sounds and feels great.

Thanks!
Chris

[jojokeo]

That's great to hear and helps to reinforce my own personal feelings too. I've played this speaker in AB tests to compare with many speakers and it really holds it's own against the big boys and outshines many of them up to a certain realistic and fair power level. It just really has a nice sweet spot in a pretty wide power zone that we most commonly practice & play in I think?! A 12" alnico speaker with it's price to performance ratio is hard-pressed to beat.

[Ed_Chambley]

If one 12, I prefer the Weber Blue Dog.  Hands down, it is my favorite speaker, but it is $205 which is not as expensive as the Gold.  I just had them recone some old CTS Alnicos using the pup cone in one and the silver 10 in the other.  They sound better to me than my Celestion Gold 10's.  2 Speakers for the price of one.  I spend a lot of money on speakers, I think I will be spend my money on reconing now.  I can find a crappy speaker and talk to David at Weber and work out the specs and get something really nice for cheap, or should I say cheaper.  Expecially if I can find a used Weber, their reconing service is $25 on their speakers.

[jojokeo]

Ed, I love the blue dog and blue pups too! To me, they are the closest things to Celestion Blue. I was searching far and wide a 3 or 4 years ago for a celestion blue but in a 10". This was before the 10" Gold came out. It took a couple of years for them to finally start selling them as they were on the website but nothing our there! Bizarre!?!
The result for me was testing a lot of 'em out there and the blue pup err blue pup cone is the one, imho for a 10. The only way to get the celestion blue tone from a Blue Dog is going with the lower powered versions. But, you also have options from Weber w/ all the various cone sizes, doping, ceramic/alnico, to fine tune things down to the gnats' ass which is a great thing.

Weber reconed an orange frame JBL for me a year ago and it's every bit as great as the original. But, I also live about 15 or 20 minutes away from Orange County Speaker and they are really great too. I either pay for gas and sales tax or shipping fees to and from if using Weber...choices a good. 

[Jennings]

Glad I came back to this thread!  Seems like Joe's managed to convert not just me but Chris too!  Weber should make you their sales man   

I've been playing my 30w Weber 12A125A (light dope) for a few months now, so thought I'd share some feedback on that.  Firtsly, I absolutely love it!!!  Without starting to gabble on meaningless terms, it basically makes most modern big-company offerings I've tried seem brittle, and harsh and "synthetic" by comparison.  It seems to have more body and a sort of organic realness to the sound.  Which is a characteristic of the old 60s and 70s speakers I love the most.

The effect this has on my playing is amazing too...and really shows the inspiration a few small, quality changes to your kit can bring out.  The improvement in the sound not only spurs me on to play better, but allows me to make more of dynamics and encourages me to really let go.  So basically I get more enjoyment out of my rig, and my audience are treated to more adventurous and enthusiastic playing, coupled with a tome that's more expressive and pleasing to the ear.

Downsides?  Well, I have got to say that I have only two points here.  The first one is not the speaker's fault but mine:

I'm using the speaker with a Certiatone Rock-It built into a 1x12" combo - so effectively an AC30 type amp with only one speaker and thus a smaller physical size for ease of transport etc.  At very loud full volume gigs I found my original Celestion Gold cut through more - possibly due to the higher power ability coupled with the brittle treble-high tone that I don't really like actually helps here!  That simply suggests to me that perhaps I should run the Ceriatone as a separate head and buy another Weber to make a 2x12" instead.  The extra air moved I think would be enough to boost at the loud gig level, and have the tone benefits I've mentioned before (another reason why an AC30 uses two speakers not one!).  Although I must say that if we’d had a decent PA at the gig i could have mic’d up the amp and not had a problem, so I’m not too fussed over all.

The second issue is a slight worry that using the Rock-It at its 30w+ rating into the 30w Weber  at high volume levels might pose too high a risk of blowing the speaker.  Wish Weber made a 40 – 50 w version I could try for peace of mind!  I’m thinking of adding one of these 12A125A in my 18w Marshall inspired combo...no wattage worries there!

I’m loving Weber speakers, and have long been a fan of their attenuators too.  Only problem for me is the shipping cost of heavy items from the US to the UK!  The price of happiness!