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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Bias setting??  (Read 5371 times)

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Offline TIMBO

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Bias setting??
« on: November 09, 2015, 11:23:12 pm »
Hi guys, Just doing a quick service on a 100w pa.
It has 4xEL34 :-
Plate - 743v
Screens - 370v
Across 1r cathode - 15mAs
It has a bias pot.
The webber calculator only goes up to 500v.
What would be a good bias setting for these voltages.
The owner may convert to guitar use as it is setup for mics. Thanks

Offline jazbo8

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2015, 12:12:53 am »
About 23mA each, which is close to about 70% Pda of the EL34.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 12:50:25 am by jazbo8 »

Offline PRR

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 12:15:07 am »
What's wrong with 15mA?

The "70% rule" says (Jazbo beat me) 23mA, which is near-enuff for all practical purpose. And at 743V(!!) I would not want to get too close to the edge.

If it don't sound rough at low level, the bias is fine. If it do sound rough, I'd try fresh GOOD brand EL34.

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 02:07:59 am »
Thanks guys, Only getting very low output at this stage, so I thought I'd start at the output.
Preamp
http://www.ozvalveamps.org/eminar/eminar150inputs5cctjb.gif
Power amp
http://www.ozvalveamps.org/eminar/eminar150outputs5cctjb.gif

Offline sluckey

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 06:12:10 am »
If the amp circuit is wired the same as your power amp schematic, it will always have very low output. The two drive signals from the PI are shorted together and will cancel if exactly the same amplitude. The schematic needs these two resistors added to work properly.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 01:14:46 pm »
Thanks Sluckey, just checked and those resistors are present.
I'll do some voltage checks later.

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 04:14:56 am »
I did some voltage checks and all look fine.
Ecaps check out as OK.
All preamp tubes have around 195v on plates and 1.5v cathode.
PI 233/236v plates 39v cathode 28/24v grids
Power tubes 762v plates, 370v screens and mixed cathode ranging from 13mA to 25mA.

On inspection there has been a blowout on one tube, arching between plate and heater this one measuring 13mA.

It is only putting out a very low distorted sound???

What is suggested as a first plan of attack, as everything looks to be in tact.
I would like to lower the plate voltage by rewiring the doubler to reduce the plate voltage and add a dropping resistor in series with the choke to lower the screen, also increase the screen resistors.     

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 04:33:14 am »
Some pics of what we are looking at.

Offline jazbo8

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 04:39:12 am »

Nice and neat wiring a la HiWatt... Funky slider pots though...

Anyway, you should replace the bad tube and make sure the idle current for all 4 output tubes are evenly matched, which may be a bit difficult to achieve without the individual bias adjustment pots. Then you should determine the turns ratio of the OPT, since the plate voltage is rather high, the OPT is likely to have a high primary impedance, so if you lower the plate voltage too much, it could cause an impedance mis-match. The screen voltage could be left alone - the EL34's are quite capable of handling such low voltage.

Offline xm52

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2015, 03:17:51 pm »
Here is an explanation of the 70% plate dissipation rule.


Like speed limits on the road, I take it as a suggestion. Some amps sound better at a lower or higher settings. Lower dissipation helps extend tube life. I like to set the bias by ear and then check that it is within the safe operating limits of the tubes.


Of course, if you want to get fancy, a dummy load, scope, distortion analyzer with a signal generator, and a spectrum analyzer can be used to measure the performance of an amp when setting the bias.



Offline TIMBO

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 04:17:38 pm »
Thanks guys, I'm only doing a quick lookover at the moment and feel that it needs new tubes alround and there is likely to be some mods in the future. :icon_biggrin:

Offline PRR

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2015, 07:26:41 pm »
> Here is an explanation

It raises some points which could be seen otherwise.

Page 5: 'point B must never be over 100%'..... this can be violated, sometimes quite wildly. Moreover point B is not special, or not even very important, because sine-signal touches B for only an instant. The tube spends ~~40% of its time on the line from B to almost A, and is *over* the 100% line all this time (touching 50W Pdiss). The main thing is that the "off" half-cycle (not shown) tends to *zero* dissipation, and the 30 Watts is "averaged over an audio cycle", so over the "on" half-cycle we can swing quite far over the 100% line.

On the other hand... a specific "feature" of push-pull is that, with ideal devices, we can idle the amplifier at *zero* current. Think of the savings of heat, and tube life! So why do we never do that? Because real devices have zero gain at zero current. Small signals come out under-sized, "crossover" distortion.

So we idle the devices at some non-zero current, where they have some gain.

Now we have both devices working on small signals, but on the loudest signals one device cuts-off on the peaks and the other device carries the peak. If each device's gain were constant, gain would drop-off on the peak, another form of distortion. However we already know gain varies with current. If we idle the devices so the gain at idle is about half of the gain at the peak, gain is fairly constant from small to large.

Gain drops-off slower than current. If you assume that vacuum tube gain varies about as square-root of current, you can see that we want the per-tube idle current to be about 1/4 of the peak current, to get fairly constant gain over the whole cycle.

The loadline in the McCaul paper peaks near 350mA. So we might like to idle at 88mA. However 88mA at 450V is 39 Watts, far past 100% dissipation.

This will be true for most high-voltage power amps. In experiments on a clean 7189 amp, I liked it best with the tubes cherry-red. However turning-down well below Pdiss didn't sound a lot different. working *far* below Pdiss did.

And in real life we don't know what the peak current is. Say a Corgi SEx1300 comes in the shop. We don't know the loadline or the power output. Sometimes we are only paid for "a quick lookover"; rarely an extended analysis and listening-test. About all we know is the power-bottle type, from which we can find max Pdiss.

We have to pick a compromise between idle dissipation and low distortion. 100% Pdiss is hard on the tubes. 70% Pdiss is much less hard on the tubes. 70% of Pdiss is easy to find, and will almost always work about as good as any other.

Offline xm52

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2015, 09:29:06 pm »
As you implied, a push-pull amp can be operated with the tubes doing a little less, exactly the same, or a little more than half the work. It depends on what class, AB, B, C, ... one wants to operate the amp in.


The moral of the story is that 70% isn't written in stone. It is a compromise. Listen to the amp, don't just fixate on 70%. As is everything related to the "organic" nature of tubes. How hard you intend to push the amp also matters when it comes to bias. Sone people want the distortion and don't care if they wear their tubes down quickly. On the other hand, an amp like the Ampeg V4B with 7027A's does pretty well at 60% plate dissipation. It helps prolong the life of expensive NOS tubes.











Offline TIMBO

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2015, 11:39:29 pm »
Hi guys,Had a bit of time to check the workings.
There was a rogue tube that measured 24mA and the others were close to 15ma, swopped this one out and ended up with a better match between pairs.
13.5/15ma and 13.8/15ma, these are a mixed brand.

I found the reason for the low volume/distortion......
It has two speaker sockets "speaker" and "extension"
The "speaker" has the tip shorted and I had the speaker plugged into "extension" so it was shorting out the speaker.
Is there a better way to reduce the risk of this being done again. :w2:

Offline kagliostro

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2015, 07:11:59 am »
What do they mean with extention ?

Are the two sockets connected in parallel ?

Franco
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 07:18:20 am by kagliostro »
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2015, 08:00:34 am »
Franco, many amps have two jacks for speaker connections that are wired parallel. One jack is labeled "SPKR" and the other jack is labeled "EXT. SPKR". See this schematic/layout...

     http://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/fender/Fender_DELUXE_REVERB_AB763.pdf

Timbo, that speaker jack arrangement is commonly found on a lot of amps. Most all Fender blackface era amps use that arrangement. It's really a versatile circuit and also provides safety for the amp by shorting the OT secondary in the event no speakers are plugged in. I would not defeat this safety feature. All you gotta do is just learn the rules for using this speaker jack arrangement. I bet you've already learned the rules.   :wink:

To get any sound you MUST have a speaker (let's call this the default speaker) connected to the jack labeled "SPKR". If you want to also use an extension speaker, just plug it into the "EXT SPKR" jack. This puts your extension speaker in parallel with the default speaker that's connected to the "SPKR" jack. This is very convenient for combo style amps. But, if you want to use an extension speaker INSTEAD of the default speaker, you must unplug the default speaker and connect the extension speaker to the "SPKR" jack. Now this extension speaker becomes the default speaker and you can plug another extension cab into the "EXT SPKR jack.

What's the first thing most guitar pickers will do when they plug in but have no sound? Probably gonna twist the guitar volume control and amp volume up and hit the strings harder. If there is no speaker plugged in and the OT secondary is open circuit (due to no safety switch on the speaker jack) you run the risk of destroying the OT, tube sockets, etc.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2015, 02:32:36 pm »
COOL, Thanks
The amp sounds pretty good, very quiet and nice tone, can't crank it as I don't have a cab that will handle 100w's.

This is not my amp, but I have a similar one that I am thinking of doing a complete mod on.
Another project at another time.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline kagliostro

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Re: Bias setting??
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2015, 02:58:26 pm »
I was asking because I wanted to be sure, as Sluckey says, that is usually used in combo amps, not PA amps, so I would be sure about the

kind of connection present because I had (have) a possible alternative that protect the amp and uses the extension speaker as a low power exit

the schematic to which I refer is the Koch Twintone II

Franco
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

 


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