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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Step down transformer question  (Read 3991 times)

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Offline Esquirefreak

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Step down transformer question
« on: August 01, 2021, 10:52:45 am »
Hey, everyone!

I just bought a completely unmolested '63 6G9B Tremolux.

I swapped the power filter caps and negative bias cap, because you could see the electrolytes physically leaking out. I also swapped the power chord for a grounded one. And lastly I changed the power tube screen resistors, cause the old ones were pretty much split in half. Then I added 1R between the power tube cathodes to ground. I measured 450Vdc @ 43.6mA / 450 @ 46,1mA on the power tubes. Which would be fine for most 6L6gc Fender amps, but it's on the HIGH side for a Tremolux.

Now, here's the thing. Since I live in Sweden I have 220v, roughly, from the wall. Hence I use a stepdown transformer.

The transformer is converting 1×220Vac+0Vac to 2×58,5Vac, with the CT grounded on the secondary. Since the transformer is as old as the amp, the secondary output is on the high side, about 2×65Vac.

My question is;
Could I use the Zener-dropping-trick on the secondary on my stepdown tranny instead of ruining the insides of the amp?

Best regards from Sweden
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 11:07:35 am by Esquirefreak »

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2021, 10:54:36 am »
Some pics

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2021, 10:58:52 am »
One more

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2021, 11:00:10 am »
Pics

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2021, 11:01:05 am »
Pics

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2021, 11:01:45 am »
Pics

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2021, 11:04:21 am »
Pics

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2021, 11:05:21 am »
New caps

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2021, 11:12:04 am »
Last one

Offline pdf64

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2021, 11:16:19 am »
You should endeavour to feed the mains voltage to the amp that it’s intended for.
Good metrics of that are the 6.3 and 5 VAC heater winding voltages.
eg use a bucker, a different mains conversion transformer or whatever to get those as close as is feasible to their nominal levels, eg well within +/-5%. 
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline PRR

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2021, 11:20:41 am »
Yes, what is the actual voltage at the "6.3V" winding?

....the CT grounded on the secondary.....

A very strange thing to do for a stage amp.

Is this maybe a UK rules construction site transformer?

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2021, 11:48:11 am »
I'll try to take the heater voltages tomorrow, had to leave the shop in a hurry for sunday family dinner.

Yeah, I honestly don't know. It's made in Sweden circa early 1960's, but by then mains power were lower here as well.

I have another transformer for hifi (isolation tranny 1:1) that does the same thing. It splits the line/hot in 2 (from 1*220Vac to 2*110Vac) and creates a virtual ground between the two windings. My best guess is that they do it to prevent ground loops, but I'm not at all that confident.

/Max
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 11:51:45 am by Esquirefreak »

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2021, 12:11:15 pm »
Here it is, the transformer  opened up. Hard to get a good pic but the 2 half windings go through dedicated fuses, and the center tap goes to the ground pin on the outlet.

/Max
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 01:14:37 pm by Esquirefreak »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2021, 12:53:37 pm »
I measured 450Vdc @ 43.6mA / 450 @ 46,1mA on the power tubes. Which would be fine for most 6L6gc Fender amps, but it's on the HIGH side for a Tremolux.

Could I use the Zener-dropping-trick on the secondary on my stepdown tranny instead of ruining the insides of the amp?
I would be happy with 450V on a Tremolux. Remember, voltages shown on Fender schematics are + 20%.

No, you cannot use zeners on the stepdown tranny.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2021, 01:12:02 pm »
I trust you, Steve. The stuff I've learned from reading your stuff and comments is invaluable (spelling?).

I keep things as is, for now, and keep a eye out for a newer transformer in the meantime.

Thanks to everyone that chimed in!

/Max

Offline pdf64

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2021, 06:16:30 pm »
….voltages shown on Fender schematics are + 20%.

I don’t see that can apply to heater voltages?
Their voltage range is strictly limited, and the lion’s share of the typical nominal +/-10% tolerance must be allocated to accommodate mains voltage variation.
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline sluckey

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2021, 07:11:40 pm »
Take it up with Fender. Fender didn't even bother to record the filament voltage on the Tremolux AB763. I'm just quoting a 60 year old schematic which says + or - 20%, not + or - 10%.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline pdf64

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2021, 05:09:34 am »
...I'm just quoting a 60 year old schematic which says + or - 20%, not + or - 10%.
I acknowledge that, however a literal reading of that ubiquitous schematic note doesn't make sense to me. Seriously, let's apply some common sense / critical thinking here; how can it be acceptable for the key power supply voltages of a correctly functioning amp, supplied with its nominal mains voltage, to vary +/-20% from the levels intended by the designer?

Valves don't acquire a whole different set of ratings by virtue of being plugged into an amp that has such a schematic note.

My interpretation of that note is that it applies to downstream voltages, ie that are significantly affected by component tolerance and the particular characteristics of the valve fitted. Thereby avoiding 1000 tech support cases per day from folks querying why eg the preamp anode voltage in their amp measures 190V when the schematic has 170V noted.

With regard to this thread, the key point here is that amp will be getting the mains voltage it was intended for when its heater voltages are close to nominal.

If the heater voltage is off by 5% or more, then my view is that to accommodate the normal expected fluctuations in mains voltage, serious consideration should be given to taking measures to get them closer, eg bucking transformer.

If the heater voltage is off by 10% or more, then urgent remedial action should be taken, and serious consideration given to taking the amp out of service, especially for long periods of high power usage, until that's resolved.

I just bought a completely unmolested '63 6G9B Tremolux.
...I measured 450Vdc @ 43.6mA / 450 @ 46,1mA on the power tubes....
The 6G9B schematic notes 365VDC at the HT and 6L6 anodes, so 450V is clearly a lot higher than that (23%  :icon_biggrin: ).
Being a 1963, it may have been fitted with a PT that had a revised spec compared to that of the schematic (drawn March 1962).
Your PT is stamped both 125P6A (6G9A type) and 68409 (6G9B type), may both be the same spec, as both HTs are noted as 365V.
But the AA763 (drawn Sept 1963) had a HT of 415V, 6L6 anode of 410V.
So even a later spec PT may not explain it.

Really, I think that the best thing would be to check your 6.3V and 5V heater voltages, as supplying the amp with a much higher voltage than it was intended for may cause significant stress to the PT, valves and OT.
Bearing in mind that even without any overvoltage, your 50Hz mains will be causing the PT to operate closer to the saturation point of its magnetic circuit. A USA domestic PT would probably have been designed for 60Hz operation; for the same degree of resilience / efficiency, 50Hz operation really requires the mag circuit to be uprated (though 60Hz transformer generally work fine at 50Hz, provided there are no other significant stress factors).
https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_tremolux_6g9b_schem.pdf
https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Fender/Fender_tremolux_aa763_schem.pdf
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 07:17:09 am by pdf64 »
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline sluckey

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2021, 08:07:01 am »
Quote
'63 6G9B Tremolux
Somehow I totally missed that and jumped ahead to the AB763. Sorry.

Esquirefreak, I agree with pdf64's advice to check your filament voltage which is most likely high too. And get a proper stepdown transformer, one that will result in having 6.3VAC for the filaments. Then the B+ voltages should all fall in line with a 6G9B amp.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 09:02:55 am by sluckey »
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2021, 10:58:16 am »
I'll get back to y'all as soon as I've checked the filament voltages. The stepdown TR I use right now is rated for 220v mains, and we have well over 230v nowadays. So there's that as well.

I might have a deal on a more modern 230v-110v TR going down, which would probably get me closer to spec voltages.

/Max

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2021, 01:20:08 pm »
So I took some measurements just now.

I should mention that I measured between one side of the yellow 5v winding to ground. Am I suppose to measure across the two yellow ones?

Considering that the mains/line voltage is about 10VAC high it doesn't seem that far off, right? The schematic calls for 350+350 on the HT of the secondary.  Also the B+ seems to have settled a bit, although it's still high.

I'm off to buy another step down tranny tomorrow that according to specs should have the correct line voltage.

Offline PRR

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2021, 01:33:16 pm »
> I took some measurements just now.

Tubes in or tubes out?

And yes, across the yellow wires! Not to-ground, the rectifier doesn't go there.

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2021, 01:41:27 pm »
Tubes in.

I'll measure the 5v winding right away!

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2021, 01:50:53 pm »
Between the yellow leads of the 5v winding I've got 5.341VAC, steady.

/Max

Offline sluckey

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2021, 02:01:48 pm »
All looks good to me.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2021, 02:10:35 pm »
Thanks, guys! That's what I thought (and hoped for).

A steady 115VAC line voltage and I should be alright, right?

/Max

Offline sluckey

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2021, 03:46:10 pm »
yes
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Esquirefreak

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Re: Step down transformer question
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2021, 11:00:27 am »
Just hooked up the new step down transformer, and voltages are looking quite good.

A big THANKS to all of you, who helped me understand this stuff better.

Let the good times roll.

/Max

 


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