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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Two amps on one chassis  (Read 7550 times)

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Offline wittyjeff

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Two amps on one chassis
« on: July 24, 2020, 03:21:34 pm »
Maybe it's a crazy idea, I don't know, but for fun and giggles I'm considering creating an amp head that contains both a Fender Bassman and a Marshall JCM800 circuit.  What spawned the idea is that I have a large rack-based chassis that used to be some signal amplifier used by the cable company.  It sported 13 tubes of various types plus some other devices, so I have plenty of room (if I use point-to-point wiring).  I've attached my proposed schematic and would like to know if what I've drawn up would even work.  Specifically... 1. will the input scheme I've drawn even work?  2. can two amps output to a single output transformer like I've drawn?
I'm sure there are other amateur issues with what I've drawn and I cringe a bit putting this out to you guys.  ...I'm obviously no electrical engineer and would like honest input and direction from those familiar with the Bassman and JCM800 circuits. How would you approach this idea?
I think this could be a quirky fun (albeit expensive) build... but what better thing to pursue during a partial quarantine/lock-down?

Offline sluckey

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2020, 05:31:58 pm »
Let us know how this turns out.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline chocopower

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2020, 06:13:34 pm »
Just one question.


Bias tap for the Jcm800 side is after the standby.


It's that correct?
David

Offline sluckey

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2020, 06:58:57 pm »
Neither of those bias circuits will work.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2020, 08:49:14 pm »
I did my best to faithfully copy the circuit from the official Fender and Marshall schematics, so if you could be more specific in what's wrong with the bias circuits or in what specific ways I may have inadvertently deviated from the original schematics, it would help me greatly.
Thanks in advance for your help.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2020, 09:10:18 pm »
I did my best to faithfully copy the circuit from the official Fender and Marshall schematics, so if you could be more specific in what's wrong with the bias circuits or in what specific ways I may have inadvertently deviated from the original schematics, it would help me greatly.
Thanks in advance for your help.
You are tapping into the B+ dc voltage to feed your bias supply. Never gonna work. The bias supply must be fed an AC voltage straight from the PT.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline tubenit

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2020, 07:17:12 am »
Quote
would like honest input

I personally love innovative ideas!  :icon_biggrin:    AND ………… there is NO way I would attempt this build. 

I think it would be incredibly complicated and likely would have significant hum, buzz and/or oscillation issues. 

Before you order any parts or start this build.  Draw up a true real layout for the chassis interior.  A control panel "layout" is a long ways from a proven chassis layout.

IF you would like an example of a well thought out and executed innovative design for a "dual" amp approach, look at Sluckey's  Dual Marshall as a standard.  Take a look at how well he designed the chassis layout.  I would not order a single part for your build until you can come up with a comparably well done design.

What you're advocating would be far more challenging then the "Dual Marshall" design.  :dontknow:

With respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 07:29:43 am by tubenit »

Offline shooter

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2020, 08:19:05 am »
Quote
would like honest input

I did a stereo KT88 "champ", weight 38lbs was a total CF
It became a great "donor" with great iron for nice future builds  :icon_biggrin:
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2020, 09:53:08 am »
Another example of a Fender/Marshallish approach.   (Fender 5F6-A is same as original Marshall.)

Again,  IF you wanted to pursue something like this ………….. please consider drawing up a well thought out chassis layout before taking one step towards buying parts or assemblying something.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2020, 01:37:30 am »
Thanks for the recommendation to do a complete detailed layout before the build.  That is a for sure.  I'm trying to determine if the circuit I've drawn will actually work first. Thanks to sluckey and chocopower I see that I drew the supply for the bias circuit wrong.  I think I've fixed it in the revised schematic attached here.
Otherwise, I've just basically copied from the original circuits but mashed them together a little at the input, used one power transformer, and then mashed the two circuits together at the output transformer.  Does anyone know if my input and output scheme will work?  That's really the only part where I intentionally deviated from the original circuits.  Is it even possible to run two amps/signal (simultaneously) through a single output transformer?

Offline tubenit

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2020, 06:41:55 am »
Quote
Is it even possible to run two amps/signal (simultaneously) through a single output transformer?

I don't know a definitive answer to that.  I will say that I've looked at 100's and 100's of schematics and can't remember a single example of when this was done.  Nor have I seen or heard of someone doing this with a tube amplifier.

Is it important to you that you use one output transformer?  And if so, why?

IF you attempt a build, I'd sure like to see you successful with it and have it be an amp you greatly enjoy.

With respect, Tubenit


Offline sluckey

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2020, 06:48:40 am »
R54 needs to be about 100K, not 470Ω. And your hum balance is now just a bias adjust.

9 input jacks? What are you thinking?

I expect fireworks with that single OT.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline pdf64

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2020, 07:12:48 am »
If only one of the power amps is pushing out signal at any instant, it should be feasible to build a functional amp. The inactive amp can pretty much be ignored when considering the operation of the active amp.
A problem as I see it is that BF Bassman PTs tend to have a stiff, well regulated HT winding, whereas that of Marshall PTs is saggy, poorly regulated.
The Marshall HT might idle high but at full power output it drops maybe 100V, screen grid node even more. That allows the EL34 to accommodate the loading. If used with a HT that stays stiff around 450V+ at high power output, it would be beneficial to use a higher impedance OT. But then it will become a different amp.
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Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2020, 11:06:53 am »
Quote
Is it important to you that you use one output transformer?  And if so, why?

IF you attempt a build, I'd sure like to see you successful with it and have it be an amp you greatly enjoy.
Tubenit: Thanks again for your thoughtful comments.  It's not essential that I use a single output transformer, but was just hoping it was possible.  The "why" would be 1. so this amp could drive a single speaker/cabinet, and 2. to make it a "duo/combo" amp in at least some way.  ...otherwise it's just two separate amps residing in a single chassis.
As for enjoying the amp.  Since I'm not a guitarist and this is my quarantine hobby intended to occupy my extra time... the joy is mostly in the build. Still, there's no point if it doesn't result in something moderately useful.  It will be a quality learning project and hopefully a conversation piece (if it makes some reasonably useful sound in the end).

Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2020, 11:26:25 am »
Quote
R54 needs to be about 100K, not 470Ω. And your hum balance is now just a bias adjust.
9 input jacks? What are you thinking?
I expect fireworks with that single OT.
Thanks again sluckey.  I'm a big fan of your work by the way.  I've learned a lot by studying your website/projects and reading your forum posts. 
-Another helpful catch on R54 and the hum balance.  I appreciate it greatly.  I'll make the changes.
-The 9 input jacks are mostly just, again, to keep some semblance of each amp's originality.  My understanding is that one feature of these separate inputs that guitarists enjoy is the ability to combine the qualities of the different channels by using patch cables to create different sounds.  In my case, I'm considering including them as in the original circuits plus attempting to add a means by which a single input can be switched to any ONE of the various inputs on either or both amps... to 1. see if it can be done, 2. make this thing even weirder/"cooler," and 3. to reduce the need to be constantly plugging and unplugging during a messing-around session or a set. Does that make any sense?  (seriously, I welcome your input)
-As for the output transformer... I've only seen this "duo-amp" idea used where two different pre-amp circuits are using the same power amp output tubes (as in your fine examples).  In this case, I was wondering if there was a way that one could go one step further and use two sets of different output tubes feeding the same output transformer.  It seems that it's not much different than amps that use 4 output tubes... other than in this case there's a slightly different signal (ok, and a bunch of other differences) coming out of them.  Where do the fireworks come in?  Could diodes or other mechanisms prevent this?

Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2020, 11:40:49 am »
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If only one of the power amps is pushing out signal at any instant, it should be feasible to build a functional amp.
Unfortunately, if only one amp can be producing signal at any given time, it greatly reduces the potential fun and functionality of this duo-amp concept.  What happens if both amps attempt to send powered signal to that output transformer simultaneously?  Is there a way to prevent/correct whatever that is?
Quote
But then it will become a different amp.
pdf64:  You make a great point and important observation here.  My plan is/was to use a PT that is rated to handle the power requirements for both amps simultaneously.  Consequently, it is likely that it would be definitely more on the "stiff well-regulated" side of things.  Your point of it then making the Marshall "a different amp" is well taken and one that I hadn't considered.  This is one of the reasons that I kept the filter chokes separate and of stock specs due to their potential influence on tone and behavior.  There's no point in going through all of this work to put a Marshall JCM800 in here if it's not going to behave somewhat like one.  How significant of an effect do you think the PT choice would be on the Marshall circuit's behavior?  I see many different replacement PT's on the market for that model of Marshall... surely there is some variation in those widely different PTs.  Thoughts?  Perhaps there's a good middle of the road PT that would power both amps but keep them within reasonable behavior characteristics of the original amps?

Offline tubenit

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2020, 12:39:37 pm »
Is it your thought that the guitarist would "switch on the fly" from one amp to the other during a song?

IF so, do you have an idea of how to make that work?

With respect, Tubenit

Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2020, 01:11:25 pm »
In theory a guitarist could switch whenever by just switching inputs (either by unplugging and plugging back in or turning the selector switch if inputting to the switchable input) since both amps are powered at all times.  I'm not sure why one would need to do that in the middle of a song though.  I can, however, see guitarists finding this useful when doing covers of varying styles of music whereby a Fender Bassman would be a more appropriate amp for certain songs/genres and the Marshall definitely would fit the bill for others (hence my selection of these two popular/legendary but distinct amps)... and also to remain more authentic to the original artists' amp choices.   I'm thinking its kind of a "purist thing" (i.e. remaining true to vintage classic tube amps used originally), ...but without lugging around two different amp heads and cabinets.

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2020, 05:15:07 am »
Sorry but IMHO - not just "No!" but "hell No!" on many fronts. There's so many things surrounding a gig/live situation with your set-up, effects board, mixing board, monitors, and getting all the levels right in a timely manner is important etc...no musician wants to add to the troubles and confusion of this idea and it being all in a single cab/head doesn't make things easier or better or easier to carry and load, unload. In fact it's an even worse idea. Despite being a wiring mess, noise & oscillation mess, weight mess, etc...it's unreliability factor just went skyrocketing with Elon Musk and his rockets. Murphy's law always dictates what can go wrong will go wrong at some point. Two separate amp heads could definitely be warranted as if one goes out for any reason you still have a back-up. With the all in one head concept forget about it there's no time for troubleshooting on stage with your rig in no light and limited tools, you're done for the night if something happens. All the inputs and amp tonal options are a non-factor in a live situation. Nor will any musician choose to unplug and re-plug during, before, or after a song - unless you have a pro set-up and a roadie there in most cases. But even then AB-Y units will be utilized. A musician's need for coloration and boosting comes from an amp's internal switching and various effects on stage. The original concept idea is for recording and studio work but then having various amps at your disposal doesn't mean they need to be combined together, so there's no advantage to be gained in this just more problems outweighing the novelty.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 05:20:11 am by jojokeo »
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Offline pdf64

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2020, 10:00:33 am »
...What happens if both amps attempt to send powered signal to that output transformer simultaneously?  Is there a way to prevent/correct whatever that is?...
I see an issue being that the signals fed to each set of power tubes are neither coherent nor incoherent, but are the same source signal passed via differently processed paths. So, depending on the frequency and particular control settings, each power amp may on one extreme be working together in unison, or at the other extreme, in complete opposition to each other. The former would result in maybe up to 100W audio power output, the latter perhaps down to 0W audio output but all 4 power tube plates dissipating heavily; to accommodate that, the wire gauge for the windings of the OT primary and PT HT may need to be beefier than normal, the standard transformer design guidelines may not be be appropriate. The only way around that is for each power amp to have its own OT.

...Perhaps there's a good middle of the road PT that would power both amps but keep them within reasonable behavior characteristics of the original amps?
I guess that the Marshall HT could be supplied via a beefy sag resistor. But then its HT voltage would be lower than that of the Fender. I guess that a way around that would be to have a shared 500Vdc 0.5A HT supply, that feeds the Marshall via a sag resistor and the Fender via a voltage regulator.
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Offline High Voltage

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2020, 10:08:31 am »

I see an issue being that the signals fed to each set of power tubes are neither coherent nor incoherent, but are the same source signal passed via differently processed paths. So, depending on the frequency and particular control settings, each power amp may on one extreme be working together in unison, or at the other extreme, in complete opposition to each other. The former would result in maybe up to 100W audio power output, the latter perhaps down to 0W audio output but all 4 power tube plates dissipating heavily; to accommodate that, the wire gauge for the windings of the OT primary and PT HT may need to be beefier than normal, the standard transformer design guidelines may not be be appropriate. The only way around that is for each power amp to have its own OT.

Could this be solved by grounding out the signal in the "unused" amp, so only one set of power tubes are pushing to the OT at a time?

Offline shooter

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 10:27:19 am »
Quote
Could this be solved
sure, but is it the "best option"?
I just threw a wad of cash at Verizon because my data is being sucked dry and they have no answers, problem solved  :think1:
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Offline pdf64

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 10:34:00 am »
Could this be solved by grounding out the signal in the "unused" amp, so only one set of power tubes are pushing to the OT at a time?
If only one of the power amps is pushing out signal at any instant, it should be feasible to build a functional amp. The inactive amp can pretty much be ignored when considering the operation of the active amp...
Unfortunately, if only one amp can be producing signal at any given time, it greatly reduces the potential fun and functionality of this duo-amp concept...
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Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 10:42:51 am »
Quote
I see an issue being that the signals fed to each set of power tubes are neither coherent nor incoherent, but are the same source signal passed via differently processed paths.
pdf64:  Again, my thanks.  This is exactly what I was thinking/worried might happen but I don't have the engineering background to know for sure.  In other words, unless the push-pull signal into the OT is perfectly synchronized (as it would be when being driven by a single linked set of howevermany power tubes), the result would basically be disastrous.  So, it turns out that there is a universal law of the universe in that "a single OT must be driven by a single amplified signal."  Any "combining" or "mixing" of circuits would need to occur prior to the output tubes in the power amp stage.
Again my thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.

Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 10:51:45 am »
Quote
a way around that would be to have a shared 500Vdc 0.5A HT supply, that feeds the Marshall via a sag resistor and the Fender via a voltage regulator
pdf64: Impressive idea.  For an experienced/knowledgeable engineer, there's always a way.  Still sounds to me that it would be more appropriate (simplicity is elegance in engineering) to use appropriate/matched PTs for each circuit.  That, combined with the other issues (needing seperate OTs being most significant) is leading me to gravitate toward the idea of abandoning this project concept altogether. 
...maybe a heavily mod-ed version of one of the amps would fit nicely in that large rack chassis instead.

Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 11:01:58 am »
jojokeo:  A sincere thanks for your helpful comments.  While it's not what I was guessing or what I wanted to hear, I trust your judgement because it totally makes sense and I value your experience and perspective.  Sounds like, if I end up doing this project, I'll need to know that it will have no value whatsoever to anyone in the real guitar-playing world... and I'll just need to do it more or less just to see if it can be done.  Another electronic curio in my collection.
Again, my thanks.

Offline PRR

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 12:08:18 pm »
.... The only way around that is for each power amp to have its own OT....

Which just moves the "collision" to the speaker (unless we are proposing multiple speakers??).

_I_ think it will play. Pentodes are high impedance. The currents sum. As you say, it may be 100W or 0W "depending", and there is some chance of high device currents summing to no real output.

And I would NOT!! carry this beast around!! (I have carried multiple 300W tube amps, that's so 1976.)

And..... in general, a Marshall is a Fender with few changes. How many of those changes can you implement in ONE "amplifier"?

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 12:41:46 pm »
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that's so 1976
:l2:
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Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2020, 01:03:04 pm »
PRR:  Great point on just moving the problem to the speaker.  I was so focused on the OT that I neglected to consider the collision at the speaker.  I'm pretty much taking the hint and considering abandoning this project as originally described.  It think it will be time better spent on creating a single quality amplifier than trying to mash these two together.

Offline SoundmasterG

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2020, 11:37:09 pm »
It is an interesting idea, but it would have to be done in a way that makes sense and gives you an end product that is useful. I think having separate output transformers is the way to go. For the speaker cabinet, you could just use one and use something like a Weber Amp Switcher https://www.tedweber.com/two-head-fs which would safely allow you to idle the unused amp section. You can only use one at a time however unless you bring two cabinets everywhere you go with the amp.


Years ago my first project was a Conn organ power amp chassis that had one power transformer and 3 output transformers. It had 3 separate sections of power tubes and phase inverters too, one for each output transformer. Likely they had a stereo pair of outputs running at higher power to run external Leslie speakers or something similar, and a mono internal amp of lesser power to run speakers inside the organ itself. Of course me being a glutton for punishment but also having a desire to learn and do something different, I made a separate preamp chassis with the intention to have 3 amps in one head. One was going to be a Blackface bassman clone with bias wiggle tremolo, another was going to be a JCM800 clone, and the third lower power one was going to be my own creation. Rev1 of the chassis had lots of issues, as did rev2. Rev3 should work well, but I lost my access to a chassis finger break so I can't make the chassis up. I also went back to school to get a BSEE in 2010, graduated in 2015. So I shelved it for the last 10 years or so. I do intend to get back to it though.


I've shared a few pictures with the power amp chassis along with rev1 of the preamp chassis, which was the configuration the last time I used it as intended. The Bassman channel sounded fantastic and worked well unless I had the trem oscillator tube enabled, then it messed up everything for the whole amp. It worked well up to about 8 on the volume and then started oscillating. My own creation worked fine also, and that one worked all the way up but it didn't sound that great.  :laugh:  The JCM800 channel didn't work at all and I'm not sure what I had wrong. I drew it all up on huge paper schematics along with a full size paper chassis layout for each of the sections before I built it. It uses 15 tubes, which I'm perversely proud of since it is one more than a vintage SVT, but it is also very heavy, and would require me to carry around one speaker cabinet that would work with all power levels, plus something like a Weber Amp Switcher like I mentioned above. I happen to have a Weber Fourhead which allows me to switch out 4 heads to one cabinet and have each unused section safely idling while not in use. It was intended to four separate heads I am sure, but it fit my need. I added some kits from London Power to keep the bias within reason when one or two sections are not in use. It scales what is going on depending on how many sections are active because as you put one or two sections on standby the load goes down on the power transformer and some voltages adjust up. The amp was originally cathode biased from Conn so it would do that automatically, but I made all the sections fixed bias so I had to add these kits. I was going to add some input switching for the JCM 800 section, and had it in the amp as you see, but I'll be scrapping that when I get back to it. It made it too complicated for little benefit and too much extra effort.

As a project it has been interesting and I have learned a lot. It's not really practical but that's fine. When the sections worked it sounded very nice and I will say the Foster transformers used in many old Conn organs are fantastic. Andy Marshall from THD first told me before I had started on the project that the big transformers on that chassis were Foster and said they were great. After I heard it I believe him. I'll finish it one of these days. I've done my level best to isolate the sections from each other and to use good grounding techniques. With the rev 3 preamp chassis my design issues from before should be sorted. I'd probably do it again, just because I like a challenge, but it is much easier to make a single amp in a chassis for sure.


Greg

Offline wittyjeff

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2020, 11:56:36 am »
SoundmasterG/Greg:  Wow, thanks for the post.  Looks like you're doing/have done something very similar to what I was thinking.  Also sounds like you had a similar thought process... "hmmm, I have this strange chassis and transformer set-up, what whacko/cool thing can I make out of it?"  The weber amp switcher does take care of the speaker load issue when one of the amps is idling etc. and allows the use of the two OTs that appear to be needed since I'm using a different set of power amp tubes (if I chose two amp circuits that used/shared the same power tubes this would all be easy and only require one OT... such as sluckey's: http://sluckeyamps.com/dual_lite/dual_lite.htm).  ...so thanks for that.
I'd be curious to see a schematic (and layout diagram) of what you've got going. Sounds like I should consider some of the mods you've added to deal with the power requirement differences between the different amp circuits... among other things.

Offline SoundmasterG

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2020, 02:22:44 pm »
SoundmasterG/Greg:  Wow, thanks for the post.  Looks like you're doing/have done something very similar to what I was thinking.  Also sounds like you had a similar thought process... "hmmm, I have this strange chassis and transformer set-up, what whacko/cool thing can I make out of it?"  The weber amp switcher does take care of the speaker load issue when one of the amps is idling etc. and allows the use of the two OTs that appear to be needed since I'm using a different set of power amp tubes (if I chose two amp circuits that used/shared the same power tubes this would all be easy and only require one OT... such as sluckey's: http://sluckeyamps.com/dual_lite/dual_lite.htm).  ...so thanks for that.
I'd be curious to see a schematic (and layout diagram) of what you've got going. Sounds like I should consider some of the mods you've added to deal with the power requirement differences between the different amp circuits... among other things.


You're welcome, that was why I posted because I have done something similar to what you were thinking. It is very important to keep the sections as isolated as possible from each other to stop cross talk. In my case it is more complicated because there are two chassis also. The multiple chassis thing was done with organs in the past so there are ways to make sure that it is safe, and as isolated as the sections can be. My Conn chassis originally used a ground buss with all three sections grounded to the one buss randomly. I modified things a little as you can see from the pictures. I have three ground busses in the power amp chassis, with each one grounding to one point on the chassis. I continue that idea into the preamp chassis with the grounds staying isolated from each other by amp section. I don't remember right now if I ground the preamp chassis at the plug in the preamp chassis with each section before the wires go to the power amp chassis or not. I have each stage in the amp isolated from each other with an RC filter section instead of running a few stages together on one section like Fender and others did. That also allows to adjust the voltage of each stage a little more precisely. If your sections will use fixed bias then you need a way to track the bias for each section based on what the B+ is doing. That is why I added the London Power bias tracking kits. I have 3, one for each section. I will be relocating one of them when I make the next preamp chassis rev as having it on top of the power transformer worked but it allowed the PT to get hotter than it should. I am space limited since the project is so complicated and has so many parts, but with the new design of the preamp chassis I will have room for it. I wanted to mount all of those on the power amp chassis if possible since the circuits being controlled are in the power amp chassis, but there isn't any more room to do so for that section. I suppose I could make myself a custom PCB and then I would have the room but this project doesn't need that precision or additional time spent.


The B+ is around 450-460V for all sections in my project. With the large output transformers I should get about 60-70 watts RMS out of the Bassman section. The JCM800 section was going to be using EL34's and will likely be a little higher power. The smaller section was using a pair of 7868's and that will probably be 25 watts or so. The main key for me is to get all the sections working as they should without interfering with each other. The intention was for me to just use whichever section I wanted to at one time, or maybe run two at a time with two cabinets and have an input switcher to change between, but it would be nice if the crosstalk between sections was low enough to be able to use all three amps separately if desired.


Letting you see copies of the schematics/layouts won't work because the papers are huge - no way to scan them into anything and I don't have time right now to get them into a computer system. Drawing up a layout on paper or in a computer program is a great thing to do before you build however because it is easy to erase and draw a change in before you build the thing as compared to having to change layout or grounding or something after it is already built. You can also use the process to learn about proper grounding and layout rules so you don't run into problems. That will be easier if you make your layout computerized so you can share with others more easily.


Greg

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2020, 03:21:58 pm »
Greg, thanks again for the encouragement and ideas.  I'll study up on your suggestions and try to re-draw my schematic.  If there's a chance you could lay out the paper schematic you have and/or the layout and take a phone pict of them and send, it would help... since I'm not an electrical engineer and unsure of how/where to connect the tracking bias supply, or the values of the RC filtering, etc.

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2020, 11:23:21 pm »
Greg, thanks again for the encouragement and ideas.  I'll study up on your suggestions and try to re-draw my schematic.  If there's a chance you could lay out the paper schematic you have and/or the layout and take a phone pict of them and send, it would help... since I'm not an electrical engineer and unsure of how/where to connect the tracking bias supply, or the values of the RC filtering, etc.


I understand where you're coming from. When I first started this project in the late 1990's I knew nothing about electronics and didn't get into school until 2010-2015 for electrical engineering. These paper schematics and layouts that I have are on paper that is something like 2 feet tall and 3 feet long each. There is no way to scan that or easily put it into a more portable form unless I would spend the time to put it into a computer program or re-draw it on an 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper. I don't have the time to do that right now as I am trying to get my duplex ready to sell, and also trying to fix up a car so I can sell it. I won't have time for any hobbies until all of that is done, so probably like December or something. You'll have to do your best to draw it out, but feel free to ask questions here and read everything you can get your hands on. People here are happy to share their knowledge. Get some books to help yourself learn the theory and why things are done vs other ways to do the same. It's an enjoyable journey!


For the tracking bias supply, you can look at the London Power website and talk to Kevin O'Connor. He's quite helpful. There is also a forum for his products where you can ask him questions. If you buy products from him he gives you technical support for them to an extent.


https://londonpower.com/
https://theultimatetone.com/

Greg


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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #34 on: July 29, 2020, 10:17:26 am »
Quote
Get some books to help yourself learn the theory and why things are done vs other ways to do the same. It's an enjoyable journey!
Greg, You are definitely correct and that's good advice.  I've read several electronics and amplifier books to get me this far (a very short way) and look forward to continuing the journey.  I spent half the day yesterday reading everything (literally) on the London Power website... good stuff!  I also plan to order a couple volumes of "The Ultimate Tone."  So, I'll move into a learning/pondering phase on this project for awhile.  I purchased a bunch of old nonworking amps this week so maybe I'll do a couple more practice projects and build my skills (and bank account) before tackling this big one.  Let's stay in touch!

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2020, 09:49:21 pm »
Quote
Get some books to help yourself learn the theory and why things are done vs other ways to do the same. It's an enjoyable journey!
Greg, You are definitely correct and that's good advice.  I've read several electronics and amplifier books to get me this far (a very short way) and look forward to continuing the journey.  I spent half the day yesterday reading everything (literally) on the London Power website... good stuff!  I also plan to order a couple volumes of "The Ultimate Tone."  So, I'll move into a learning/pondering phase on this project for awhile.  I purchased a bunch of old nonworking amps this week so maybe I'll do a couple more practice projects and build my skills (and bank account) before tackling this big one.


That sounds like a good plan! If you decide to get some of the London Power books, TUT3 and TUT1 would be where I would start, in that order. TUT1 was the first obviously and some things are a little out of date since it was written in 1994 or whatever, but there is a fantastic amount of info in the book about switching options and other things too. TUT2 is also good, and TUT4 I think deals the most with Power Scaling which is somewhat related to the bias scaling. It could be TUT5 also that deals with that though...I forget at the moment. The books are a bit expensive, and the hand drawing of the figures and what not is a bit weird...it would be nicer if they were computer drawn, but he self-publishes these so I guess it is to be expected. He also has a way of putting things that is sometimes confusing, but you can ask him in an email what he means by something if you don't quite get it and he'll respond. The TUT books are a bit more difficult to comprehend than the real simple ones but if you read and re-read, you can usually get it. His Galactic Ground scheme is different from Hoffman's scheme and also works well. You should study it to see how it differs and that will help you understand ground paths somewhat.


You may have heard of VVT - many people have used it here, and it was very largely based on London Power's earlier versions of Power Scaling. I've tried Power Scaling in a few amps and I really like it, especially for larger power amps. For lower power stuff I need to spend a bit more time dialing it in I think as it didn't quite work as well. Anyway, as I said the bias tracking is similar and simpler than Power Scaling. I believe he still sells kits for bias tracking.


Three are many other great books to get, depending on your knowledge level of course. The Dave Funk Tube Amp workbook is one of the best for beginners but it is out of print. The Gerald Weber books have some useful info, but also a lot of fluff and mistruths in them. The best all around books IMHO would be the ones by Merlin, which you can find on his website, which I've linked below. His website is fantastic too. Merlin's ground scheme is similar to London Power's and works well.


http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/




I think building some of your other simpler projects would be a great way to get your hobby started and you will learn a lot to where after a few you will be able to have the knowledge to tackler harder ones like this 2 in one amp. Set yourself up a process where you start with the schematic, then once you know that is correct, do a full size layout so you can figure out how best to route all the wires and everything. You can also do a full size layout on a computer program and then it is printable and scaleable. Then build and see how it ends up. Note all your changes on the schematic and layout and you can refer to it down the road if you need to. Draw in pencil also if you do it on paper so you can erase.


Quote
Let's stay in touch!

You know where to find me.

Greg

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Re: Two amps on one chassis
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2020, 11:43:49 am »
Greg, thanks again for your help.  I will actually do the things you've suggested and enjoy the journey.

 


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