Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 06, 2025, 09:50:55 am
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers  (Read 3891 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sonny ReVerb

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 237
  • Possibly another stupid question...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« on: October 21, 2022, 09:17:55 am »
I'm planning to build an approximation of a Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30. However, trying to analyze the power supply has me confused. I've done this for several amps before and the circuit voltages ended up in the ballpark. The general idea is at the bottom of this page. If you add up the currents downstream of the 22K resistor, you get about 77mA. This would result in a voltage drop of almost 1700V??? Even a few milliamps would drop a lot of voltage. Some of the sister amps of the Thunderbird have a 10K in this position, but it still seems that little current would flow beyond it.

My goal is picking an appropriate PT and choke. My total current required is about 212mA. The Hammond 273BX seems like a good candidate, but the filament current is a half amp short of required.

The full schematic is in the library. Gutshots here.

Offline pdf64

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2965
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2022, 09:24:33 am »
You need to ‘show your working’ in how you’re coming up with those current draws.

https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Selmer/Selmer_tbird_twin_30w.pdf
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline Sonny ReVerb

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 237
  • Possibly another stupid question...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2022, 10:22:32 am »
« Last Edit: October 21, 2022, 10:40:20 am by Sonny ReVerb »

Offline Sonny ReVerb

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 237
  • Possibly another stupid question...
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2022, 10:53:47 am »
I just used 'typical characteristics' from the datasheets...

Offline pdf64

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2965
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2022, 11:52:40 am »
I’m not sure that’s a reliable assumption.
eg look at the cathode resistor values for the ECC82 stages.
I suggest you examine / analyse the actual circuit operating conditions.
https://www.justgiving.com/page/5-in-5-for-charlie This is my step son and his family. He is running 5 marathons in 5 days to support the research into STXBP1, the genetic condition my grandson Charlie has. Please consider supporting him! BBC News feature  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm26llp

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2022, 10:14:41 pm »
I just used 'typical characteristics' from the datasheets...

In the Selmer they all got 100K (or more) series resistors. So the 12AU7/ECC82 can't possibly suck 11mA (unless you got >1,100V feed).

Assume 250V rail, assume half of that appears across the total R in series with each tube unit (note that some units share resistors). A hasty count says 6mA, not counting reverb driver.

Plotting the OPs would tell more. But what do you really need to know?? The feed to the OT and EL34s... all else should arrive at factory spec just by copying.

Offline Graydigger

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2024, 10:40:36 pm »
Don’t know if this thread is still alive or died on the vine. 

Bottom line up front: if you have access to an amp, I imagine it shouln’t  be too overwhelming. .But if you’ve never physically seen or been in one, this project will be a major time suck. you peel away layer after layer of “WTF”?

I have been working on recreating a Tbird Twin 30 for a friend.  The  critters are scarce, he only had it in his studio on loan for a short time but really was intrigued by its tone and uniqueness. I thought it would be nice to get one built so we could tweak based on that. Having never seen one in person, and with only a couple demos out there to hear the amp, it’s I didn’t have a ton to go on. And no voltages or other useful tidbits.

As it turns out the schematic has a number of non-trivial errors. I think one version was scanned,  and the way the original paper was folded, wiring didn’t get scanned, so there are section of the amp apparently going to nowhere.  I also have issues with the way the LFO is supposed to interact with the 6BR8 pentode section (output  varies screen voltage, which sounds clever except I couldn’t get it to work in LTSpice no matter how many tweaks I made.  It does work if you mix the LFO signal into the grid of the pentode, but the pentode design is so squirrelly something has to be off (like the data sheets I have are from the wrong planet. 

This project has taken oodles more time than I ever could have imagined (and I have a good imagination). Bottom line here at the end of the post? Unless you have tons of time, experience, and know what you are after (ie have one or access to one) , trying to build one is not for the faint of heart. 

I’ve identified most of the sketchy wiring and finally have the whole amp up and running in LTSpice,  but it has felt like creating a baby dinosaur out of  and old chicken
Egg.

On top of that, spec’ing Trannies and various chokes based on guesses is hard on the wallet.

Nonetheless, sometime in the next few months I’ll be excited to have this beast up and running so I never have to do anything remotely similar again.

The last speed bump was a bad power tranny  from Hammond )I’ve had two this month, plus one from Merc, lucky me)

On the plus side I’ve drilled down into the circuit in Spice, have modeled it every which was from Tuesday, and all its little eccentric bits are working. I my build is in a BFSR chassis, which is a bit snug and not neat, but hey? No porn here!

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2024, 05:39:44 pm »
Welcome.

> the way the LFO is supposed to interact with the 6BR8 pentode section (output  varies screen voltage, which sounds clever except I couldn’t get it to work in LTSpice

IMHO, most SPICE models for screen grids are just bogus. Gimmicked to work at "Typical" voltages but wrong when voltages vary. This may have to be actual physical experiment.

There is a -30 and a -50. The fog is different on the -50 sheet, so the 3M and 100k are seen to set Vg2 to maybe +10V (which may even be OK, with 470K Rp).
https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Selmer/Selmer_tbird_twin_30w.pdf
https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Selmer/Selmer_tbird_twin_50w.pdf

Yes, iron experiments will eat you alive. Since the output stage on the -30 is wired UltraLinear, I'd suspect Selmer shopped for "Williamson" transformer sets, once a hot item. 15 and 7.5 Ohm windings sound like UK practice.

But this is like recreating Notre Dame cathedral from a tourist's sketch. There is a LOT we can't know.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2024, 07:19:40 pm by PRR »

Offline jazzyjoepass

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • I love Tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2024, 01:46:26 am »
Anyone know what's the correct bias bypass resistor value? 250Ω or 2.2kΩ ... some of the schematics although aren't clear seem to show 2.2kΩ ...

Offline sluckey

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 5075
    • Sluckey Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Selmer Thunderbird Twin 30 transformers
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2024, 07:16:46 am »
Anyone know what's the correct bias bypass resistor value? 250Ω or 2.2kΩ ... some of the schematics although aren't clear seem to show 2.2kΩ ...
The only schematic I've seen shows 2.2K. That is most likely an error. The only cathode biased EL34 amps I've seen are Matchless Chieftan and Clubman. Both of those amps use 270Ω, one for each EL34.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program