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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 12.5V, 20A power supply  (Read 6718 times)

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Offline RicharD

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12.5V, 20A power supply
« on: June 19, 2009, 12:30:25 am »
Today I found a 12V 20A DC power supply at a job that is being gutted.  The site is an old projection room in a bank high rise office.  This supply was hidden inside a rack and still powered up.  It was used to control relays that operated curtains, blinds, and such.  To the best of my knowledge, this unit has been on for over 20 years.  The best part is it doesn't have a fuse.  I snagged it thinking DC filament bench supply.  After 2 decades of being on, I suspected a capacitor might be in order.  The supply is beefy but not regulated, or is it?  It does have 1 rather unique thang that I don't understand.  The transformer has a 575V tap that terminates into a 4uF cap only.  Everything else is pretty straight forward.  It's kicking out 13.7VDC w 1 Vp-p ripple.  Cap is shot.  I put a 10,000uF on the output and the ripple dropped to .2Vp-p and was sawtooth ramped. Why does it have a HT terminating into a cap only?  Here's some pix.





Offline PRR

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Re: 12.5V, 20A power supply
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 05:52:01 pm »
I smell a constant-voltage ferroresonant transformer. Vary the input 90V-140V AC, does the output vary in proportion or hardly at all?

Offline RicharD

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Re: 12.5V, 20A power supply
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 01:59:12 am »
Thank you for today's vocabulary word.  ferroresonance  Elegant in it's simplicity.  I guess it'd be worth springing for a new cap to have that beefy of a bench supply.  20 amps would heat up a whole bucket of tubes.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_9/6.html

No exposition on transformer regulation could be called complete without mention of an unusual device called a ferroresonant transformer. “Ferroresonance” is a phenomenon associated with the behavior of iron cores while operating near a point of magnetic saturation (where the core is so strongly magnetized that further increases in winding current results in little or no increase in magnetic flux).

While being somewhat difficult to describe without going deep into electromagnetic theory, the ferroresonant transformer is a power transformer engineered to operate in a condition of persistent core saturation. That is, its iron core is “stuffed full” of magnetic lines of flux for a large portion of the AC cycle so that variations in supply voltage (primary winding current) have little effect on the core's magnetic flux density, which means the secondary winding outputs a nearly constant voltage despite significant variations in supply (primary winding) voltage. Normally, core saturation in a transformer results in distortion of the sinewave shape, and the ferroresonant transformer is no exception. To combat this side effect, ferroresonant transformers have an auxiliary secondary winding paralleled with one or more capacitors, forming a resonant circuit tuned to the power supply frequency. This “tank circuit” serves as a filter to reject harmonics created by the core saturation, and provides the added benefit of storing energy in the form of AC oscillations, which is available for sustaining output winding voltage for brief periods of input voltage loss (milliseconds' worth of time, but certainly better than nothing). (Figure below)

Ferroresonant transformer provides voltage regulation of the output.

In addition to blocking harmonics created by the saturated core, this resonant circuit also “filters out” harmonic frequencies generated by nonlinear (switching) loads in the secondary winding circuit and any harmonics present in the source voltage, providing “clean” power to the load.

Ferroresonant transformers offer several features useful in AC power conditioning: constant output voltage given substantial variations in input voltage, harmonic filtering between the power source and the load, and the ability to “ride through” brief losses in power by keeping a reserve of energy in its resonant tank circuit. These transformers are also highly tolerant of excessive loading and transient (momentary) voltage surges. They are so tolerant, in fact, that some may be briefly paralleled with unsynchronized AC power sources, allowing a load to be switched from one source of power to another in a “make-before-break” fashion with no interruption of power on the secondary side!

Unfortunately, these devices have equally noteworthy disadvantages: they waste a lot of energy (due to hysteresis losses in the saturated core), generating significant heat in the process, and are intolerant of frequency variations, which means they don't work very well when powered by small engine-driven generators having poor speed regulation. Voltages produced in the resonant winding/capacitor circuit tend to be very high, necessitating expensive capacitors and presenting the service technician with very dangerous working voltages. Some applications, though, may prioritize the ferroresonant transformer's advantages over its disadvantages. Semiconductor circuits exist to “condition” AC power as an alternative to ferroresonant devices, but none can compete with this transformer in terms of sheer simplicity.

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: 12.5V, 20A power supply
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2009, 02:29:52 am »
ferroresonant transformers were widely used in telecom industry for -48 and -24 power supplies. not so much anymore with the advent of high frequency switchers. we have a -48V 400A ferroresonant power supply - it powers our telephone switch and most the the equipment i drive - core routers, ether switches, fiber optic transport, etc.. the system is backed up by a string of batteries stacked in series/parallel to deliver -48 if we loose power from our power plant and the city's power grid.  after about 15 minutes an automatic transfer switch cuts over to the back-up power generator. if all means of getting AC to the system fail, the batteries can hold the system up at full load for about 30 minutes. a low voltage drop-out switch takes the batteries off-line when the batteries fall below a preset threshold. the batteries fill a 30' x 30' room about waist high.


btw, nice score!  :glasses9:

Offline sluckey

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Re: 12.5V, 20A power supply
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2009, 08:24:41 am »
FAA uses some small AC line regulators made by Sola. Simple, sturdy, and effective. I replaced one in 35 years because the AC line voltage meter on the equipment was visibly oscillating slightly at about 20Hz. You could just barely see the needle vibrating.

I never knew the technical name for them. I bet mackie2 had some sitting on top of his beacon interrogators.

http://www.sola-hevi-duty.com/products/powerconditioning/PDFs/mcr.pdf
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline mackie2

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Re: 12.5V, 20A power supply
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2009, 12:26:10 pm »
Sluckey--

Yes indeed we did, and big sola's on the Microwave Equipment too--early computer regulation also had the 500VA sola's.  I have one I use as a shelf to get my drill press to the right height. 

That 20A powers upply would de a good source for a  (2  tube 6336A tube amp)  Filament supply--They draw 5A @6.3v, 2 in series, !2V
--A winter time amp, with built in heater.  I built one -- it has a 20A GE fil transformer.

That's Crowbar technology--I love it!

Mackie2
1/2 a Valve is better than no Valve at all.

Offline PRR

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Re: 12.5V, 20A power supply
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2009, 08:27:34 pm »
Yes, usually spelled "SOLA", although others made them too.

Voltage is proportional to frequency; on most public utilities the short-term frequency is held to <1% (more like <<0.1% on any gridded utility network) so the voltage is "exact" unless you hang it on a sloppy standalone generator.

The simple ferro has ugly waveform. Makes motors unhappy. Sine-corrected types have more sine-like output. I had one of those powering a small radio studio. Loud hum, hot even when unloaded.

However the ugly waveform is actually excellent for peak rectifiers to make clean DC. As Mackie says, early TTL computers often ran SOLA iron with the same rectifier and cap as you have. Reasonable load regulation, great line regulation, better efficiency than a series-pass regulator.

> in a bank ... to control relays that operated curtains, blinds, and such.

Sounds like someone was padding the bill. No relay needs better power than a bank's normal utility voltage. This thing probably wholesaled for $400, was invoiced to the bank for $800... after installation, that's $380 of pure cream.

I can't think of any useful use around tube-amps, unless you build a 16-input mixer. Sure, it will power monster bottles... but when you have 100+ volt signals, clean 6VAC wiring is not a hum source.

It -will- power any sane size car audio system. The Delco you tore out of the pickup to install a sexy-stereo can be the shop sound system. 12V*20A, 240W, will juice 120 honest watts audio output, most dash radios are 4*20W or a pinch more. They usually won't blow a 10A fuse, so you could add a 60W booster-amp to cover the far end of the warehouse too.

Is CB radio still alive? Of course that is only 5 watts, but "I have heard" of 100W boosters on CB rigs; this supply would loaf. It might even carry a kilowatt SSB linear if you are not too chatty.

Offline RicharD

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Re: 12.5V, 20A power supply
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2009, 10:24:15 pm »
I was simply thinking of keeping it as a bench supply for 12VDC filaments.  Quick easy access.  My bread board has a 6.3VAC transformer but my last few experiments have used 12VDC.  I got a regulator pretty hot the other day.  I had 2 circuits sharing a common 12VDC filament supply that was only wimpy enough to power one or the other circuit.  I forgot and left too many tubes plugged in.

 


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