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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Experimenting with Wreck Topology  (Read 4454 times)

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Offline zendragon63

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Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« on: January 16, 2013, 10:37:51 pm »
Been doing a bit of experimenting with the T-wreck circuit topology in the interest of coming up with another small, simple amp with at least most of the tone and response I like to play but at a lower sound pressure level. Lots of load lines drawn, lots of calculations as well as lots learned on the bench. I am a amp doodler but thought I would share what I came up with in hopes that there are one or more of you that might want to mess around with this topology. Feel free to comment or critique as I value your insights.

I built a Liverpool clone several years ago so I understand the Wreck as a compressive, fairly gainy touch sensitive circuit. The trait I like the most about this circuit is that the clipping initially occurs at the finals so it is essentially clean through the preamp section up to the point that clipping initially occurs. It also has the most power to deliver to the load up to that point. As the output clips further, the PI begins to clip and the screen current on the finals pulls the screen and the PI voltage so it can compress and bloom as it comes back. The screen sag limits the plate current enough to reduce output power slightly. The 3rd stage eventually clips as you drive it more but, up to that point, it adds nice array of even order harmonics. At least that is my take on it based on the bench and the gigs.

But a little too loud for most situations I now play and actually too gainy IMHO as built Twreck-proper. So I initially started with a 12AY7 for V1a/b and 2x EL91 with a generic VVR. It had a great edgy--but not harsh--sound and overall pretty good; I gigged with it over a weekend in a small drinking establishment and while it delivered the tone, my 3-4 watts began to get buried by about the hour three. I stepped it up to a 2x 6BM8 PA section. Voltage scaled PI and the finals. It is still suprisingly loud but it retains all of the good tones I like even when you trim down the VVR. Cleans are great with the Strat and OK with humbuckers. No need for pedals--even on La Grange.

So this is what I ended up with. I don't have a legitimate sound clip as of yet. The tone stack is customized but I liked it especially for the Strat. I had a devil of a time getting the PI to clip at the right time and the right bias point without severly overdriving the finals so if the voltages look on the low end, it ended up as it ended up. The RC choice immediately preceeding stage 3 is critical for the lower end roll off and it is really personal preference.

As you were gents. Regards

dennis
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 04:44:30 am by tubenit »
Knowledge is what you get when you read the fine print; experience is what get when you don't. I am, therefore, experienced.

Offline tubenit

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 04:45:14 am »
Very impressive design!  Thank you for sharing it.

I love innovative designs.

With respect, Tubenit

Offline smackoj

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 05:19:38 am »
z dragon; hi. question....what made you decide to use the 6MB8 tube for the PI in this amp? also wondered the use of a transistor ?  is that your innovation or one of Fischer's original design parts?

thanks

 :icon_biggrin:

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 07:23:16 am »
nice work ZD. pics?
we want gear pr0n.   :icon_biggrin:   

built something similar into a bogen PA with octal tubes a while back - killer tone.

--DL

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 08:09:08 am »
Very cool, indeed...put that one on the list!

Thanks for sharing your design and your description  :thumbsup:

Offline zendragon63

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 09:14:53 pm »
Thanks for the comments.

Smackjo, I used the 6BM8/ECL82 because I already had a 'Little Wing' simile built that I used for a platform. The load lines and other tube characteristics are not identical to a 12AX7 so I tried multiple loading and operating points but eventually returned to the more familiar values. I went into it with the intention that I wasn't gonna let load lines push me around... :icon_biggrin:

I suspect that nearly any of the 12a_7 family and shirt tail relatives would do the job given the best available operating conditions. Within reason. Without going too far into the weeds, I found that the quiescent current vs the dynamic plate resistance vs the supply RC time constant yields interesting vaiations in tone 'drawls', like listening to the difference between a New Yorker and a Texan. For example, the 12AX7 PI w/ 2x EL91 had a way cool, unique subtle 'Oowww' in the bloom that I could not replicate with the 6BM8, even with identical (values) parts and operating conditions. Work has picked up a lot so I've run out time to doodle but any insights would be appreciated.

The Mosfet is just a generic power scale feature. Gear porn attached; phone photos.

And my 'designs' are wheels that have already been invented and I only shamelessly plagiarize customize here and there. Respectfully, Mr. Fischer donated the wheel on this one. Regards

dennis 
Knowledge is what you get when you read the fine print; experience is what get when you don't. I am, therefore, experienced.

Offline tubenit

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 07:48:22 am »

Beautiful cab!  I love it.

Sapele & flame maple?

With respect, Tubenit

Offline zendragon63

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 12:58:54 pm »
Paduk, flamed maple. Harder to see but there is a top and bottom 1/4" strip of ebony that trims the maple. Regards

dennis
Knowledge is what you get when you read the fine print; experience is what get when you don't. I am, therefore, experienced.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 02:06:28 pm »
Nice.....those trim strips of Maple really make it stand out!!

I just cut my first dovetails this week and am really looking forward to getting my hands on some nice wood...

I continue to be amazed at the inspiration I gather from this forum.....THANKS!

Offline tubenit

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 04:41:02 pm »
Quote
Paduk, flamed maple. Harder to see but there is a top and bottom 1/4" strip of ebony that trims the maple.


Nice woods and a very beautifully done job! 

Thanks, Tubenit

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 11:19:32 pm »
That thing kicks ass!Love to hear it!

 The two paralleled caps are interesting.Did you parallel them to get the right tone and end up leaving them that way?
  How much output wattage do you think it has? I'm in the process of building a couple of 'wreck variants more along the lines Silvergun did.
  Inspirational build!
Honey badger don't give a ****

Offline JB

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2013, 06:49:02 am »
I built a PP EL91 amp with VVR a while back, never been entirely happy with it and have been meaning to tweak some more.

Would you mind posting your EL91/wreck version schematic?  I'd like to give it a try.

For me its for bedroom/recording purposes and occasional jam nights in a friends cellar.  I get approx 4W which into a 12" guitar speaker is plenty as our drummer doesn't get too heavy handed.

Thanks,


Jay.




Offline zendragon63

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2013, 01:28:06 pm »
The 2x EL91 schemo is attached; have fun with it. Added a pic. Again, not a 'wreck proper' but it is satisfying enough for a simpleton like me to just to chase the end of the tone rainbow.

The caps were paralleled primarily to get to the roll-off point rather than out of tonal considerations. However, I did use a OD and a ceramic to get there. What I mean to say is that I didn't try different combinations of the individual values to make the total value shown so there might be some tonal uniqueness--try it any way your curiosity leads you. The Ra-a of the EL91 is around 20K so it is more difficult to find OT impedance and speaker match but close was close enough for me.

My best guess is 3-4 watts on the EL91's and 7-8 watts on the 6BM8's. Regards

dennis
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 02:16:34 pm by zendragon63 »
Knowledge is what you get when you read the fine print; experience is what get when you don't. I am, therefore, experienced.

Offline JB

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Re: Experimenting with Wreck Topology
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2013, 02:17:20 pm »
Hey thanks for that, very interesting!

My EL91's are running 261V anode into a Hammond 125C, 23K:8R.  Slighty colder than yours, 15V on the cathodes and lower value grid stops.  Pre-amp is the biggest difference though - mine uses an ECC83 to give two gain stages, like a Marshall but without the CF before the PI. 

I'll definitely give yours a go - will have to get myself a 12AY7.

Thanks very much!


Jay

 


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