Electric cars

[Heinz]

Hi all,

I just returned an electric car which I had rented for three days. It was such an amazing experience that I thought it would be worth sharing.

I have been following the rise of Tesla and the recent release of other electric cars with a great deal of interest and have always wondered what it would be like to have one. Even though I admire Tesla for the technical beauty of the Model S its price tag makes it a no-go for me. However, there are other electric cars that are well affordable for me (like the Nissan Leaf and the Renault Zoe), so I decided to rent a Renault Zoe for a few days and use it for everyday driving.

I was expecting to like to experience but I never imagined I would like it that much. I was able to carry the whole family (2 adults, 2 kids including booster seats) plus baggage/groceries without problems. The car is actually quite roomy and well equipped. The battery is located below the floor and under the back seat leaving a full size trunk. I was able to drive about 170km on a single charge with A/C on before the battery warning came on (and 17km remaining). A full charge costs around 3€ which is the equivalent of a bit more than 2l of gasoline. If I did the maths right this is about 200 miles/gallon. Pretty damn good. The driving experience is amazing. Even when fully loaded the car accelerates quickly from a stop and you can feel the instant torque of the electric motor. Driving faster that 100km/h drains the battery pretty fast but that may be acceptable depending on your target.

Recharging took about an hour for a full charge and some public charging stations are actually free. I drove about 600km and spent roughly 9€ on electricity. I could have bought roughly 7l of gasoline for that. As an owner you would have a charging station at home so you can plug in when you're not driving. This will very likely keep it fully charged for every new trip. Driving long distances is possible but recharging will consume a lot of time. A gasoline car (or a train/plane) is probably a better way for covering long distances. Public charging infrastructure is also sparse or non-existent in some areas. But I'm sure this will improve over time.

I am seriously considering buying one as my next car. It fits my driving habits very well and is a great pleasure to drive. Range anxiety has not been an issue for me. I understand perfectly that it may not be suitable for everyone's needs or to everyone's taste and I don't want to start a debate about which is the better car. There are still some unresolved issues with electric cars (most notably the fact that China has a monopoly on lithium) that will have to be resolved before mass production is even realistic. However, it seems that electric cars have finally reached a level in both technology and price that can make them a viable alternative.

[EL34]

Pretty cool report Heinz.


I would love to build my own if I had time, but I don't


I drive less than 3000 miles per year so electric would work for me

[Heinz]

Building an electric car would be a great project. I was also thinking about it before the kids were born. However, I have neither the mechanical skills nor the right tools to do it. And the result would definitely be different from a commercial product.

There are a number of tutorials and reports about DIY electric car conversions on youtube. Your CNC machine could be really handy...

[Ritchie200]

Heinz

Great review!  I do like the Tesla X with it's Aston Martin'ish styling.  It is a beautiful car on the road.  The Roadster/Lotus/Tesla is also an impressive performer.  Tesla has come a long way but is heavily reliant on subsidies - but maybe that is needed to get the technology over the hump.  Otherwise they would not be solvent.

I have several books on building electric cars and someone was going to give me a Bradley GTII for free.  That was going to be my doner car but they lost the title and broke the custom windshield so I passed.  When I was serious about it several years ago the problem was that the lithium ion battery packs for the home builder are $$$$$$$$$$.  Retrofitting the mass produced Prius battery had been very spotty with sometimes fiery results!  (several packs are needed for any kind of distance)  Lead acid is so limited in range and temperature.  Maybe there are more options today?

Jim

[Heinz]

It looks like the batteries are a much more complex topic than it may seem at first glance. Thermal management is essential. If they get too cold they lose capacity. If they get too hot they burn. And charging is yet another science. The currents which must be handled by a car charger are way beyond anything I feel comfortable with.

LiIon batteries are still the technology that is used in production models. There have been a few announcements of "miracle" batteries or super capacitors (remember eestor?) that never materialized. The most recent announcement comes from http://powerjapanplus.com/battery/. There is a shimmer of hope that it may be for real this time. The people involved in the development are serious scientists and engineers. They have promised to start delivering late this year. We'll see.

I have also heard (profound) rumours from Renault engineers that a new battery pack with higher capacity is due sometime around 2016. However, they did not say anything about the technology. It's clear that in the long run LiIon batteries are NOT the way to go. There simply isn't enough lithium. I read that the 2013 world production would have been sufficient for roughly 10 million cars (with nobody else claiming any lithium). That's just not enough to replace traditional cars even if we wanted to. And with China having a quasi-monopoly on lithium it is also potentially dangerous to become totally dependent.

[thermion]

Interesting thread, I just had a 05 mazda 6 wagon crap its engine and am seriously thinking about a EV conversion. It's 3.4klbs curb, a little heavy... and auto transmission so that's not very convenient. I need a daily commuter though, not white zombie.
I am really hoping these sand-based Li cells get to market soon:
http://www.gizmag.com/nano-silicon-anode-sand-lithium-ion-battery/32885/
As was reported in July, these may realize 3x capacity over current designs. You could build a large array of these coin cells, a' la tesla, and chassis-mount it in place of the gas tank. Recent improvements reported by Stanford and UI Urbana-Champaign also hold much promise.
Letsee, management/ controller box, battery module, motor...maybe $20k before you have something usable? Also there will be several custom fab parts (motor mount, motor-tranny coupling, etc.) that someone will have the create.

most notably the fact that China has a monopoly on lithium

Hardly...lithium is not a rare earth metal.

[Heinz]

Hardly...lithium is not a rare earth metal.

You're right. I mixed up the two.

[Heinz]

I guess they come from China. However, the motors in production EVs like the Zoe are AC motors which I think have no permanent magnets. But I have no idea what materials are used for building them.

Renault offers an interesting approach to the battery price. You have to lease it. I hated the idea at first but the more I think about it the more I like it. It lowers the price of the car significantly. It takes away the fear of having a breakdown in an 8000€ component. If it breaks they will replace it. And it also takes away the fear of losing capacity as the battery degrades over time. If it reaches 75% of its capacity the will replace it. And finally, once a new type of battery becomes available you can give back your battery and lease a new one.

When it comes to the total ecological impact of an electric car I really have no idea whether it is better or worse than for a gasoline car. The fuel efficiency is definitely better but you have to start caring where your electricity comes from. Recycling of old batteries is another issue. However, it looks like the electric drive train is very durable with few components that can fail.

[Ritchie200]

Renault has been using a combination of LiI and Supercaps for their KERS system in their Formula 1 engines for a couple of years now.  Supercaps are great for big current draws on acceleration and hills - which really drain a LiI.  I think the all electric Formula E is using that also, obviously just on a larger scale.  That would account for a tremendous boost in miles per charge if brought to the general public.  Also, with all the money in F1, the LiI battery makers have been making lighter and more powerful batteries.  Amazing what you can do with limitless F1 money infusion!

Jim

[John]

I still always wonder why they don't use solar panels for the roof and hood. Maybe a safety thing?

[Heinz]

Solar panels produce too little electricity for powering a car. An "average" electric car consumes roughly 13kWh per 100km. Solar panels that fit a car's roof and hood will only produce a few watts. In the end, it would add considerable cost and weight and extend your range by a few meters.

The Nissan Leaf has an optional solar panel in the rear spoiler but it is only used for recharging the 12V system which powers the radio, ventilators and the other "regular" appliances.

I think that weight reduction might be a way for improving electric car performance. Car manufacturers are using existing components and manufacturing methods in order to keep the price affordable. However, most components have not been weight optimized. They were designed for use in gasoline cars where weight is not an issue. We have seen an increase in weight with cars over the last years (caused by adding a lot of safety components like airbags, etc and a lot of gadgets) which has been compensated by more engine power. But that's not so easy for electric cars. Once electric cars reach a certain production volume it will most likely make sense to start developing light weight components even if they come at a slightly higher price. Due to the weight reduction the additional component cost can be compensated by making the battery smaller.

The technology is still in its infancy. Or to be more precise: the technology is mature but mass production is in its infancy. Still, it looks like "serious" car makers are now making "serious" attempts at establishing electric cars as an alternative for gasoline cars.

[thermion]

Totally agree about the weight thing, same kind of approach as designing aircraft. It's no mystery why plasma boy used a '72 datsun 1200 for his donor, the curb weight is spec'd at ~2300#, and I think that includes the electro drivetrain and batteries! Unfortunately light + strong does not usually equal affordable. Also light + fast can quickly equal airborne!
Looks like the Zoe and Tesla roadster both are embracing the magnetless design, this could certainly reduce dependance on RE metals.
I think everything has arrived for EVs to take over except for the batteries....they are truly terrible. For some insight into Li battery fun have a look at what boeing went through on the 787 dreamliner recently, a plane caught fire just sitting on the tarmac plus several in-flight events.

[Heinz]

The more I dig into the topic I am no longer convinced that electric cars will take over or even have to. I feel that it is perfectly reasonable to have both electric and gasoline cars. They are covering two different use cases. You have to pick the one that fits your driving habits best. Many families have two or more cars so if you replace one gasoline car with an EV you get maximum flexibility. You can go electric for short distances and use the gasoline car for long distances.

Once you realize just how efficient an electric car actually is hopefully many people will request similar efficiency for gasoline engines. This would certainly be a benefit for our environment. It is also possible that electric vehicles with range extenders will replace traditional gasoline cars in the long run since car manufacturers will try to minimize variations in the production process.

[EL34]

If not an electric car, how about a Morgan 3 wheeler?


I think these are really cool


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFg25Oit3AI#t=112

[Ritchie200]

Watch out for the termites!

Jim

[EL34]

Make them flap their wing and go faster?

[thermion]

If I had the dough I'd go buy an Ariel atom yesterday.
http://www.arielatom.com/
Yeah it's an ICE but sure looks like fun!

[Ritchie200]

Make them flap their wing and go faster?

Wood frame!

Jim

[EL34]

yes, I know


I was joking about the termites flapping their wings to assist the vehicle
But They have to be at the winged state, so maybe it was a bad idea 

[Ritchie200]

If I had the dough I'd go buy an Ariel atom yesterday.
http://www.arielatom.com/
Yeah it's an ICE but sure looks like fun!

Oh no, my ideal track/street car would be a Radical!  These things are monsters!

Jim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f70AeryyDAE

[thermion]

Wow 0-60 in 2.7 sec...no BS. The atom could keep up, they claim 2.6 to 2.3 for various models. Looks like the new porsche 918 spyder hybrid is claiming 2.2, MSRP is only $845,000!
I remember a post back when about the hartley h1v8, where they take 2 suzuki hayabusa heads and mate them to a custom crank. The newest bolt 2.8L version claims 600+ HP at 10krpm with turbocharger.
Hmm... an h1v8 ariel...

[Ritchie200]

THermion

yeah, the Radical SR8 has the Hayabusa parts with custom crank to make the V8 in it.  Those things wind up pretty nice!  I need to win the lotto.....

Jim

HEY!  My 2000th post!  WOOHOOO!!!!