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Offline DummyLoad

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eye luv klass A...
« on: September 20, 2017, 06:49:50 pm »
...u bishes!  :icon_biggrin:

bias supplies missing - should work.

145mA flows through 120mA OT - meh! 

--pete


EDIT: add missing ground wire for driver stage. schematics in reply #3
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 01:26:42 am by DummyLoad »

Offline PRR

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2017, 07:01:32 pm »
Is a ground symbol missing where C16 runs into R24?

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2017, 08:01:05 pm »
yes there is.


thanks PRR!


-pete

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2017, 10:12:11 pm »
boogered up the load calculations for the reverb driver dropping resistor and preamp supply dropping resistor - R17, R19, R20.   

attached schema with corrections.

added bias supplies - range should be about -24V to -40V. bias supplies are relatively independent.

--pete



Offline PRR

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2017, 10:57:58 pm »
Just saying.... agree this rating is widely violated in guitar-land.....

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2017, 11:36:51 pm »
Just saying.... agree this rating is widely violated in guitar-land.....


i know, right? i saw that and compromised at 100K per valve i was going to use 68k or 82k.

a while back, i bought a new quad of KT120 locally off craigslist, the seller was going stuff them in a MESA but sold it before he had the opportunity.

if i redplate a pair from g1 runaway, fusing the cathodes the KT120 should help to save the OT from excessive heat. i'll probably start with 250mA FA fuse under each cathode.


--pete

Offline 92Volts

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2017, 07:07:39 am »
Just saying.... agree this rating is widely violated in guitar-land.....

Are you familiar with the implications of this rating? I too have seen it violated, but don't want to melt anything (of course) by messing with it in my own designs.

My understanding is that grid leak behavior should drive grid 1 negative (with respect to the reference voltage) which is not intended, but usually is safe.

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2017, 09:01:24 am »
Quote
...u bishes!
NICE build!,
 
Quote
145mA flows through 120mA OT - meh! 
I'm using the same OT at 95ma, and after an hour it doesn't even feel as warm as a cat on your lap :laugh:

the CXSE-25 is rated at 250mA max if you want to throw away your current oT :icon_biggrin:
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2017, 04:34:23 pm »
Pete,


Can I start ooo'ing and ahhh'ing now?!?! :icon_biggrin:   That looks really cool!  I cant wait to see and hear!


Jim

My religion? I'm a Cathode Follower!
Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 04:55:01 pm »
Pete,

Can I start ooo'ing and ahhh'ing now?!?! :icon_biggrin:   That looks really cool!  I cant wait to see and hear!

Jim
sure thing jim! ...but not so fast! that iron is LOT of moolah. it may be winter before i have the spare $$ to throw at such a project.

as far hearing it goes, i'll need to get another local artist to record some clips for me - i pissed off the last guy, so if'n ya wanna hear it, i may has to ship it to ya - freight! thinking that a head might be easier to manage...


thoughts?


--pete


Offline PRR

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 06:39:10 pm »
> My understanding is that grid leak behavior should drive grid 1 negative

Grid current can go both ways.

Small happy triodes at normal bias, there is a tendency for G1 to run negative.

Big hot power tubes that get a little gassy, the grid tends to run +positive+. More current. In a power stage, this makes the tube run even hotter, more gas, hotter yet. Tubes can run-away.

Fender's big amps violate this because in a fix-bias push-pull stage they can be biased extra cool, 70% Pdiss or so. This leaves some margin for grid drifting positive without early melt-down.

Single-ended stages "should" run self-bias, good protection against grid gas current. DL decided differently, his choice; and at this extreme power level the dissipation in Rk does get serious. Over 4 Watts, not much against the plates dissipation but a lot to hide inside the chassis. Oh well, it's his $108 worth of bottles.

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2017, 08:32:01 pm »
Quote
that iron is LOT of moolah.
yup, I'm glad I got mine when money was cheep, now I gotta work my  :cussing: s off to make 1/2 :BangHead:
I have the Hammond equivalent also, just in case :icon_biggrin:

curious, did you even try as cathode biased before you went fixed?
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2017, 08:42:38 pm »
Quote
that iron is LOT of moolah.
yup, I'm glad I got mine when money was cheep, now I gotta work my  :cussing: s off to make 1/2 :BangHead:
I have the Hammond equivalent also, just in case :icon_biggrin:

curious, did you even try as cathode biased before you went fixed?


dave, i have not built it. just a concept. i ordered the PT and OT from mouser earlier today. i have a choke that'll work for prototyping for now. i forgot to order the bias x-former. i may spin it up in self-bias initially.


--pete

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2017, 11:52:37 pm »
Pete,

Can I start ooo'ing and ahhh'ing now?!?! :icon_biggrin:   That looks really cool!  I cant wait to see and hear!

Jim
sure thing jim! ...but not so fast! that iron is LOT of moolah. it may be winter before i have the spare $$ to throw at such a project.

as far hearing it goes, i'll need to get another local artist to record some clips for me - i pissed off the last guy, so if'n ya wanna hear it, i may has to ship it to ya - freight! thinking that a head might be easier to manage...


thoughts?


--pete

Let's see....  I'm outside of St. Louis, your in Austin....  I think it would be cheaper for you to drive it up here! :l2:

Haha!  You may want to think head.  An amp like this will need one, preferrably more 12" speakers.  It would make it easier to transport in a reasonably sized car if needed.

Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2017, 08:19:10 pm »
Quote
just a concept
ah, you had enough #'s that I thought she was making heat :icon_biggrin:

I'm playing along for extra credit :laugh:
your 735v and 145mA comes up 5k, as your OT says, what I'm hung up on is the fixed bias, how does -30 yield either your plate Volts or current?  straight off loadline plotting? (no I didn't plot it)
also, can I use -30 to calc Rk for self biased?   (30v/.145=207ohms)?

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Offline PRR

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2017, 08:57:58 pm »
> how does -30 yield either your plate Volts or current?

Note that G2 is fed 300V, not 600V.

As a wild-pitch guess, the most bias you need is Vg2/Mu(g2). Mu(g2) of these tubes is near 10. 300V/10 is 30V. In a rich A application the bias tends to be 0.6 of the above, so -18V. Here he may be hot enough to need nearer 30V. You could plot it by adjusting published curves for V(g2)= your G2 voltage. However a few seconds on the bias-trim is much less trouble. Just be sure you have "plenty". Me, I'd tend to put a tiny 120V:12V transformer backward on a 6V feed, get 60V AC or some 80V DC, resistor-divider that down to size.

Rk should also be near 30V at the same current, except about 10% off because V(Rk) now subtracts from V(g2).

IAC, some adjustment on smoke-test will be needed. Elaborate computations are useless precision when you throw real +/-20% tubes in the sockets.

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2017, 09:12:45 pm »
Thanks, dually achieved on my desktop

Pete, it was a green beer here, I turned all the component ref. horizontal, PS next :laugh:
 :dontknow:
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2017, 11:03:34 pm »
your 735v and 145mA comes up 5k, as your OT says, what I'm hung up on is the fixed bias, how does -30 yield either your plate Volts or current?  straight off loadline plotting? (no I didn't plot it)

i threw a dart at the published curves. IOW, a SWAG as the curves are ratiometric - and i cheated: see PRRs last post. also the reason i allowed up to -40V adjustment of the bias supplies  :icon_biggrin: . i'll start with the KT120 filaments warmed up, power up the up the bias supply set to -40V, then i bring up the main transformer slowly with a variac. this all assuming of course, i'm near the target for the Vg2 and plates supplies.
i will be working alone, so as learned from my days at crydom/silicon power cube, i'll be working with one hand behind my back, with safety glasses, wearing rubber soled shoes.

it will be interesting to see if these things hold up to 700+ volts to the plates. an expensive experiment, relatively speaking, but entertaining nonetheless. no wife no kids, so need something to do to pass the time...

also, can I use -30 to calc Rk for self biased?   (30v/.145=207ohms)?

yes, you can use that value as a staring point, but i'd start with 40V and work my way down. use a rheostat and/or handful of power resistors. 

the transformers were available from mouser. < 24 hours from mansfield tx. to my door via UPS. they were setting on my porch when i got home this afternoon.

--pete

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2017, 09:56:31 am »
Quote
it will be interesting to see if these things hold up to 700+
working north of 600vdc is always a heightened experience, I would be ready for un-expected arcs.  once I got that far north, I try to go no-hands when measuring.

I think you have a winner on the bench, I'm living vicarious :laugh:
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Offline Ritchie200

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2017, 04:02:57 pm »
No kidding!  No sharp solder blobs extending through on those socket lugs....  I am also living vicarious!

Jim

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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2017, 09:39:14 pm »
thanks guys!

starting the wiring on the breadboard shortly. i have a plexi preamp laid out the breadboard presently, so i'll use that to drive this output stage. wiring in reverb on the breadboard is PITA...

BTW, shouldn't be any hairier than working an a musicman HD-130 or the like: they have 725V B+ applied to the plates of a quad of 6L6s.

--pete

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2017, 05:55:56 pm »
some progress. link below to pics. the preamp on the breadboard is a standel 25L15. never tore it down - it's been on that BB for nearly 4 years now. that BB is richard's old rev. 1 BB, it doesn't get used much, so never tor it down. will mod the 12AU7 concertina/gain stage to be a paralleled gain stage. 


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b38lnzfeubst7d1/AABQk6wcmD3CUJBOUHrMMD2Ba?dl=0


PS works... working around B+ this high puts the nerves a bit on edge. the cap bank pictured is 4 x 800uF 450V. the chokes are hammond 193N for the plate supply and 193B for the screen supply. there's a lot of iron on that BB.  :icon_biggrin: 


higher output than stated is because it's unloaded except for the preamp and cap bank balancing resistor string.


--pete

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 06:55:08 pm »
Quote
the cap bank pictured is 4 x 800uF 450V.
I've got 3 10,000uF 450vdc if you break yours :icon_biggrin:

something I do for testing PS under load is estimate expected I, use unloaded B+ than calculate an R value including WATTS.  clip + n - measure real quick, then if all is good, let the R warm up some, re-ckeck and move on.  NOT for the faint at heart!

that is a boat anchor n a half of iron :l2: 
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2017, 12:21:03 am »

I've got 3 10,000uF 450vdc if you break yours :icon_biggrin:

thanks, but i'd need 4...sooo...you're short one 10k uF to this party.  :laugh: 

she's a cookin' link below takes you to new pics with telemetry loaded. i chikkined out: went auto bias (more like lazy and didn't have room or want build the bias supplies) stuffed a 470R 25W under each KT120. missing a RC network on the G2 supply so G2 B+ is 40V higher than estimated. plate supply is about 10V higher than SIM prediction. the OT is stressed a bit more than i'd like but i believe that it'll be Ok. 
using the 25L15 concertina as finals driver; G1 of KT120's connected to the cathode tap of the concertina.

grid leak is 150K, PRR! :p

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b38lnzfeubst7d1/AABQk6wcmD3CUJBOUHrMMD2Ba?dl=0

--pete

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2017, 09:40:01 am »
everybody needs TWO fluke 87's :laugh: :think1:

looks like concept is reality, nice!

Quote
you're short one
sadly the 4th one exploded in spectacular fashion :l2:,
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2017, 11:54:12 am »
everybody needs TWO fluke 87's :laugh: :think1:

and a beckman industrial with a 1500VDC range. thankyouveddymush!  :p

schema of as built attached.

--pete


EDIT: added telemetry and fixed ref-des for V4.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:04:46 pm by DummyLoad »

Offline kagliostro

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2017, 12:15:01 pm »
COOL STUFF Pete :thumbsup:

If you develop a layout we would like to see it  :icon_biggrin:

Franco
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Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2017, 12:22:28 pm »
 :worthy1:
Yes, please keep it coming

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2017, 12:25:28 pm »
thanks franco!


sounds really, really nice. has just a hint fizz on note decay when pushed over the top full up. i noticed i have 500R screen resistors on the BB, going to 1K Rs may help that some, otherwise i just back off on the throttle a bit.


--pete

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2017, 12:27:25 pm »
Im gettin the FEE-VAH
 :blob8:

Offline mresistor

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2017, 12:33:38 pm »
I'e got a couple of EVM15L's that would love to take the whoopin from that amp..   a bit more PO than the Standel..    wow!

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2017, 06:36:06 pm »
 :worthy1:
Quote
thankyouveddymush!
couldn't see past the flukes :think1:
I had an 85 to go with my 87, but let my flunky co-worker use it and he tried measuring 33kvAC, he lived the meter vaporized!

how warm is the 1628 running?  It's on my BB with a 500vac 250mA PT, I just need 1 more cap :icon_biggrin: 

EDIT  just noticed no fixed bias, did you try, or just go with self bias?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 06:39:59 pm by shooter »
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2017, 08:25:02 pm »
:worthy1:
Quote
thankyouveddymush!
couldn't see past the flukes :think1:
I had an 85 to go with my 87, but let my flunky co-worker use it and he tried measuring 33kvAC, he lived the meter vaporized!

how warm is the 1628 running?  It's on my BB with a 500vac 250mA PT, I just need 1 more cap :icon_biggrin: 

EDIT  just noticed no fixed bias, did you try, or just go with self bias?


did not try it. it was easier to to strap two 470R 25W under the KT120 than build two bias supplies + i forgot to order the PT for bias supplies...  :BangHead:  besides it BB might crater if i add another chunk of iron... j/k it's on 1/4" plate aluminum.

1628 is running cool to the touch - barely getting warm. i haven't left it on for more than 20-30 minutes. i'll fire it up and check after 2-3 hours.

power on surge test went well: hits near 800V on plate caps and about 390V on screen caps.

it's pretty loud for a class A amp. maybe a standel 40L15SE that weighs 80lb +?  :icon_biggrin: 

I just need 1 more cap :icon_biggrin:  well, iffn' ya handn't turned the one into an amp parade confetti, you'd be set...bet you damn near $#!^ your pants what that thing blew...   

--pete

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2017, 09:09:39 pm »
eye am a complete dolt! i am missing two very important caps... sheeesh!   :BangHead:


--pete

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2017, 07:19:39 am »
V4, V5 Ck?

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2017, 10:56:37 am »
Quote
...bet you damn near $#!^ your pants
that cap was 1 of 8, used as 1st stage B+ for a bank of 6 pulsed DC PS's +/-160vdc 100A
It broke free, shorted the 320 and blew 12 100A buss fuses, THAT sounded like opening day inside 55gallon oil drum!!!! 
the top of the cap welded itself to the steel frame and it took me hours to die-grind it off so the new one could fit!
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2017, 06:27:52 pm »
V4, V5 Ck?


yessir. them be the ones... they wuz 'a hid'n out on me.


--pete

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2017, 06:31:41 pm »
Quote
...bet you damn near $#!^ your pants
THAT sounded like opening day inside 55gallon oil drum!!!! 
i'll bet it did.

Quote
...bet you damn near $#!^ your pants
the top of the cap welded itself to the steel frame and it took me hours to die-grind it off so the new one could fit!


wouldn't it have been easier just to scrap what ever it was?

--pete

Offline PRR

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2017, 07:14:08 pm »
Why does cathode follower have a plate resistor?

(I probably know why; but not needed here?)

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2017, 07:24:16 pm »
Why does cathode follower have a plate resistor?

(I probably know why; but not needed here?)


because i'mma fat, lazy, redneck...


--pete

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2017, 08:28:22 pm »
Quote
wouldn't it have been easier
the screw lugs, screws included, fused to a steel bar, looked like a 3/4" stalactite!

Quote
because i'mma fat, lazy, redneck...
:l2:

you shoulda said "it's used to adjust the PA drive" :icon_biggrin:

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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2017, 10:08:45 pm »
Quote
wouldn't it have been easier
the screw lugs, screws included, fused to a steel bar, looked like a 3/4" stalactite!

Quote
because i'mma fat, lazy, redneck...
:l2:

you shoulda said "it's used to adjust the PA drive" :icon_biggrin:


that much current i see it would be.

PRR - preamp on the BB was built for P-P finals, it was easier just to ignore the concertina plate load for this experiment. yes, i know it's not needed: we know that. OTW, in the interest of "let's just get it going" i ignored the plate load R of the concertina and used the cathode drive to keep the NFB loop happy with the SE finals + the lo Z output of the cathode drive made the choice clear. 
 
adding 100uF across each 470R Rk, helped with overall gain and as expected, breaks up sooner, and has less "headroom". happy with the circuit so far. power on surge is pretty heavy with the 800uF of filtering. now that it's past just a concept, i may strap in the 100uF +100uF stack.

--pete

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2017, 08:22:52 am »
so I was pondering your TS circuit, (it made my brain hurt), do you get enough "sweeeet" tone to offset the complexity?
thx
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Offline DummyLoad

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2017, 09:31:48 am »
so I was pondering your TS circuit, (it made my brain hurt), do you get enough "sweeeet" tone to offset the complexity?
thx

shooter, that is the standel 25L15 preamp. noted tone sweetness for jazz and blues by players is legendary. to answer your question: yes, the active tone network works very well. we added the 1M pot for mid dip level control, also, not shown is a dual-gang pot that replaces fixed resistors of the bridged twin T making it a variable bridged twin T filter that allows freq shift of the network.

--pete

Offline shooter

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2017, 10:53:46 am »
Thx Pete, I had to draw a flow chart just to get my bearings  :think1:
Unless someone is paying me I think I'll stick with my 1 or 2 knob cut TS's :laugh:
Went Class C for efficiency

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2017, 10:59:11 pm »
curious about the performance? see link. i calculated just under 38 watts @ 10% THD.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uk3jkoo2y3noa0x/AAB_wQvHiHgGvnEEZnuDOexRa?dl=0

--pete





Offline 92Volts

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2017, 01:47:02 pm »
Awesome!

Have you tested at different frequencies?

As crazy as it is to have a 38w single-ended amp at any frequency, you aren't pushing that OPT's limits too much... I'd expect it could still reach into bass guitar territory at least, if not quite do the advertised 30Hz

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2017, 04:28:18 pm »
Awesome!

Have you tested at different frequencies?

As crazy as it is to have a 38w single-ended amp at any frequency, you aren't pushing that OPT's limits too much... I'd expect it could still reach into bass guitar territory at least, if not quite do the advertised 30Hz
i have not. 1KHz was/is sufficient. wasn't too concerned about the low freq. response. i'll measure f-3dB tomorrow.
--pete

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2017, 09:49:45 pm »
For the halibut.... I simmed the B/T tone control section frequency response.

EDIT -- nothing to see here, move along to Post # 50.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 12:21:05 am by PRR »

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Re: eye luv klass A...
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2017, 10:56:16 pm »
PRR, thank you for doing that. i presume that the green lines are the T/B controls fully CCW?

measured roll-off: 12.5vpk out @ ~45Hz. 25vpk at 1KHz. i believe that we can improve that number with larger coupling cap on the driver to power tube grid and bypassing the preamp. i have a 22nF in there now with a 150K grid leak so my numbers are moot.

my signal gen can drive 600ohm load to 30Vpk so tomorrow i'll bypass the preamp altogether and bump up the driver coupling cap to 100nF, that'll put the f-3dB knee at ~10Hz. IOW, i'll drive the final gain stage and concertina with the signal generator.   

100W load R hit 195degF started to make the masonite on the bench smell... i really need to get around to mounting those on a suitable heatsink. 

--pete

 


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