Hoso56 sound samples wanted, chassis and speaker suggestions?

[boodle]

Hello All,
Long time stalker, first time poster!

I stumbled upon the Hoso56 about a week ago while investigating suggestions for converting the normal channel of an 18W build to an pentode 1st stage.  Got parts on the way to put in a 5879 Hoso56-style and I am anticipating great new things for the 18W.

In the process of that research, I became inspired to build a Hoso56 variant...got some Q's for the experts...

What iron to use for a build:
As part of that research, I have read most (all?) of the threads pertaining to the Hoso56 and I am planning on building either Geezer's Hoso56 II with EL84's or modified with tubenit's 6V6 version. (Great work on those, you guys are amazing.)  Besides amazing tone and flexibility, the goal of the build is to spend as little as possible using parts on hand and a minimum of purchased parts.  I have 2 set of potential iron: a PT and 2 OT's from a Magnavox tube stereo that ran 2 stereo pairs of 6V6's and a PT and OT from a Trace Elliot Velocette (El84).  So...

In the process of the research, I have lost where to find the sound samples of the amp.  I have searched and read and can't find the Soundcloud examples for the life of me.  If there was a sample of the Hoso56 with 6V6's and with El84's that would be great to hear.  Any help would be appreciated as that would help me decide on what iron to use.  Also open to hearing any anecdotal reports about differences that you have heard in your builds.

Chassis:
I currently have 2 open-back cabinets that I am considering:
1. Buddha cab that can house a chassis of max dimensions of 21" wide x 8" deep x 2.75" tall.  Front facing controls.  The minimum height needs to be 2.5".

2. Princeton Reverb-esque cab with unique dimensions.  Kind of a mix between a Princeton and a Deluxe in size.  Chassis dimensions 21.25" wide X 7.75" deep X 1.75" tall.  Front of chassis would need to classic ~60 degree Fender lean.

Anyone got a lead on a custom chassis maker that doesn't like to make a profit?
Or other more reasonable suggestion?

Speaker:
I am considering either a 1-12 combo or a 2-10 combo.  Any thoughts there or speaker recommendations?  I am looking for articulate and warm cleans and complex drive that both cut through dense mixes.  From memory of the Hoso56 sound sample, the amp fits the bill and then some.  I tend to play in rather large bands (2nd electric, keys, 2 or 3 vox, bass and drums), so it needs to cut where needed and disappear where not.  I do not need thumping low end.

So, super simple requests.  We should have it sorted in...3 posts...no, 5 posts, something like that, probably.

Thanks, folks!
Tim

[SILVERGUN]

Here's one: https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=20099.0


Just tried the link myself and saw it doesnt work.

I would also try finding any of tubenits soundcloud clips and then just look around on his channel

[boodle]

Silvergun,
Ridiculous how easy that was!
Thank you,
Tim

[SILVERGUN]

Here you go:

The only soundclips of Tubenit's HoSo56 are ones of the "the minimalist" using 6BM8 tubes.

https://www.soundclick.com/music/songInfo.cfm?songID=13741593
https://www.soundclick.com/music/songInfo.cfm?songID=13741608

The build thread for the HoSo56 "the minimalist" is here:  https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=23013.0

[tubenit]

IF you build one with EL84's or 6V6's, then I think the Warehouse ET65 12" speaker would be a good one.  Also the Emminence Cannabis Rex. 

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

I can't find any soundclips of Geezer's HoSo56 with El84's.  What I remember about it is that it had some decent overdrive to it.   IF I built one with El84's, I'd be tempted to add an active FX loop.  This can be done using one triode as the recovery after the tone stack. 

In contrast, the HoSo56 "the minimalist" I built has a cleaner tone to it because that's what I was aiming for.  It's my practice amp to try to begin learning some jazz.

OK, I found a soundclip of my old original (from years ago) HoSo56 with 6BM8's  (not the minimalist) where the tone is pushed and overdriven some. It's a cover of Journey's City Lights and so it's not posted.  But IF you wish to PM me, I can email a copy of that to you.  It turned out pretty decent, IMO.   

With respect, Tubenit

[boodle]

tubenit, I happen to have a Cannabis Rex, so I've got that going for me.  I'll PM you.  Thx!

Silvergun, thx for finding those.

I seem to remember a soundcloud file the geezer had another player record using an earlier version of the the hoso56.  Ring any bells?

Also, searched the Sound Clips sub-forum and all the threads that I could find returned the dreaded 404 Page Not Found.

[tubenit]

I seem to remember a soundcloud file the geezer had another player record using an earlier version of the the hoso56.  Ring any bells?

That wasn't the HoSo56, it was DaGeezer's mini-bassman using 6BM8 tubes and was only 7-9 watts.  DaGeezer is a fabulous superb guitarist and to the best of my knowledge, he always did his own soundclip with the exception of that one.

http://www.musicwebtown.com/jallenshaw/46763

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

Here are two schematics for your consideration.  DaGeezer's original HoSo56 with a PPIMV  (post phase invertor master volume).   AND …………….. the same schematic with active FX loop which uses the FX send in place of the "Trim" on the other one.

IF you use delay, reverb, EQ pedals, etc...…….. then I think it's worth adding the active FX loop unless you prefer them on the front end.   IF you want the active FX loop, I can probably draw up a layout for you that includes that in the next several days.   

The mosfet CF  (cathode follower) vs a tube triode does not change the tone of the amp in that position. You can read about this in ARCHIVES which has photos, schematic and layout info:  https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=21873.0

I've attached two schematic in both GIF and ExpressSCH format.  The SCH file is editable using ExpressSCH which is a FREE download.

With respect, Tubenit

[boodle]

tubenit,
First off, thank you for the sound file you sent!  Very nicely done!  Both the playing and the tone were very good.
If I understand correctly, the sound file was with an amp with 6BM8's in it?

Thank you for the schematics.  I already have a rather robust folder of many of your and Geezer's schematics and layouts for the various versions of the Hoso56.  Including of a MOSFET FX loop.  I have no fear of MOSFETs set up to mimic a tube CF as the likelihood of them adding to the distortion element of the amp is very low.  I was planning on a loop set up like Metro Amps Zero Loss (and maybe just buying the kit for that part), but that will come later after I have 1 channel built and tweaked.

As I am new to Express PCB software for schematic and layout drawing, if you would enjoy creating an FX loop layout, that would be appreciated.  I would prefer making a loop from parts rather than a kit.  (I have used Express PCB to design a PCB set for OD pedals and such in the past, but not tube amp schematics.)  I have been viewing your schematics and layouts using the software for the past week or so.

Quick question about printing a tag board layout drawing to scale using the software...is there an easy way to do that?  I have a leftover 24.5" x 3" x 1/8" piece of fiberglass board and Hoffman-style turrets that I planning on using for the tag board.  If I have a full size print of the board, I could start drilling and turreting (a word?) the board.

 

On that note: I have thought through a phased plan of building, but starting my original layout to leave room for easy addition of later components.

Again, many thanks for your engagement and help on this project!  It is much appreciated!

[tubenit]

Since you're wanting me to draw up a layout for you, let's be sure I am following you correctly?   

You're wanting a layout that matches this attached schematic?  Is that correct?  IF not, then show me the exact schematic you're wanting to use.   I can likely start on it tomorrow, Friday.

With respect, Tubenit

[boodle]

tubenit,
Excellent question.
First, I will likely build in phases to reduce the variable set while tweaking aspects of the amp.
Phases:
1. Hoso56II, but only a single channel and using 6V6 tubes (I think I am going to like the 1959 OT I have for 6V6's better than the EL84 OT), tweak to taste
2. Add channel 2 controls, switches, relay and foot switch functionality, trouble shoot
3. Add in active FX loop

Something that I am on the fence about is PPIMV or VVR.  I have installed VVR in my 18W, and I am happy with it.  However, you said in one of your posts that you were very happy with the PPIMV in the Hoso56.  Any further info you have to share on that?

Depending on the answer to MV question will inform my direction on final circuit.

Let's assume that PPIMV is the way to go for now.  In that case, this is my plan currently:
Build the basic circuit to match the Hoso56 II using the v1_2 schematic (Geezer's work) and modifying the PA for 6V6's using the Hoso56 6V6 and PPIMV schematic (I'm pretty sure that is your work).  Finally, I was planning on using the Metro Zero Loss FX loop schematic and insert it between the trim pot/relay 1b output and the 0.0047 DC blocking cap at the input of the PI.

That was the plan, but I see in your schematic from the last post, you have the MOSFET source follower right after V2A before the tone stack.  Wondering which would be a better placement?  The cost of one more MOSFET will be negligible.

So, perhaps I need to find some answers to a few more Q's before considering the layout.
Thoughts?

[tubenit]

When you provide me a single complete schematic, I'll draw a layout.


Tubenit

[boodle]

Tubenit,
Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to shift my due diligence to you.  Not my intention.

The more I've thought about it, the more I think that I should do the layout in Express just as a learning effort.  But, your generosity has not gone unnoticed.  Thank you.

Do you have any thoughts regarding PPIMV vs VVR in terms of tone at lower volumes?
Or any thoughts on my Loop placement vs. your active loop schematic?

[tubenit]

On a scale of 1-10 volume,   the VVR sounds better below 4 or 5.  The PPIMV sounds significantly better above 5, IMO
VVR is great for recording at super low volumes.  I found the PPIMV to be simpler to install and more reliable as I have had a VVR develop hum after several yrs and removed it.

It sounds like you want HoSo56 v.1 but with PPIMV, 6V6's and Metro Zero Loss FX loop?   Correct?

I am calling this version B  for Boodle.

IF so,  I have drawn up a schematic that has all of that.   I added an "enhance cap" which smooths highs out.  You can do a search on this on the forum.

Confirm whether this is what you're wanting, please.  There is already a layout that can be easily modified in a few minutes to fit this.  It's in a Hoffman style turret layout form.  I can also draw up a paralleled version which would be easier to modify IF needed.   

With respect, Tubenit

** NOTE:  I built DaGeezer's "pseudo dual channel switching" complete with relays.  And after some time removed the
     extra pots and used other options or the switches to have a boost.  IF you're playing in a band where you're taking
     lead solos often, then I can see DaGeezer's switching idea to be useful.  IF not, it's ALOT of work setting all that up
     & you may find it not as useful as you think?  Just a thought to consider.

[boodle]

tubenit,
Thank you once again, that schematic looks perfect.  I do plan on using the Metro-style loop.  It will likely make more sense to start with the simple loop in the Hoso56-v.B.sch and add Metro's kit board at a later date.  BTW,I am honored to have a B version!

Based on your thoughts on VVR vs. PPIMV, I will start with PPIMV and taste test.  I can add a separate board for VVR in the future, if desired.  Either output volume control will most usually serve to manage stage volume.  Recording volume is not typically an issue.

I play in a band setting where I solo, so I will likely end up with the pseudo channel switching version eventually.  I plan on starting with a single set of gain and trim controls first and adding the complexity later.  I use pedals for drive regularly, so I will experiment in the simpler form to determine it the complexity is warranted before implementing.  Thank you for the word of advice.

If there is an easily modded layout that already exists, that would be a big help.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "paralleled version".  Could you clarify?

[tubenit]

I am attaching two layouts.  One is in the style of the Hoffman turret boards which is a proven great layout.  This would be easy to modify the layout drawing.  This may be a match to DaGeezer's  "pseudo channel switching" schematic.  CHECK the layout against the schematic.  Any discrepancy …………… go with the schematic version.

The other is a paralleled turret board style similar to HiWatt or Vox.   You must CHECK for ERRORS and compare this with the schematic.  IF there is a discrepancy, go with the schematic.

I can help out IF you get stuck.  Having said that,  it is VERY worthwhile drawing up your own schematics and especially layouts.  You learn ALOT from doing so.   Take your time and have fun with it. 

I think the Hoffman layout style is very well thought out and an excellent approach for a reliable and quiet amp.  However, the Hoffman layout style is specific to a specific amp.

The advantage of a paralleled turret board is that it's so generic that you modify it into almost whatever you want.

PLEASE post your schematic and accurately matching layout on this thread for others.  I will eventually put them in the SCH library. 

With respect, Tubenit

[boodle]

tubenit,
I really appreciate your generousity!

I agree that doing the layout and schematic is very worthwhile. I have typically done both by hand and have used the Hoffman layout style in the past on several DIY's.  It is nice to have some software in hand to do them with now.  I had a bit of tunnel vision when I was designing the OD pedal PCB's and didn't think to use the software for turret layouts.

It will take a while (I am also rebuilding my deck.  Not as fun) to get the amp built, but I will return with files and photos.

[boodle]

As I consider parts purchasing for the build, I read over many pages on the "Do caps make a difference?" thread.

I have many Orange Drops on hand, so that will be my main cap for the signal chain.  However, very interested in Musicaps from reading.

So, question for tubenit, would you suggest Musicaps in the locations shown and perhaps increasing the first coupling cap from 0.01 to 0.02?  Portion of circuit with locations noted below.

[tubenit]

At this juncture, I don't use Musicaps very often.  And when I do it's typically just in an area where I want the clearest tone possible with very little "coloring" by the nature of the cap.  Something like an FX loop.  Those caps are typically difficult to find in the value you want and they're expensive.  (I think building a super clean clear jazz amp with those could be interesting.)

I would be inclined to try some of Hoffman's Jupiter caps.   OR ……… a mix of Orange Drop in the tone stack and preamp and maybe the Mallory's post LTPI coupling caps.  The Xicon caps are nice also and a reasonable size.

I don't think the type of cap will be very critical with this amp.

with respect, Tubenit

[boodle]

tubenit,
I had a chance to compare the B version schematic and the Hoffman style layout and fixed a few things.  I can list them, if preferred.

One thing that is missing from the layout are all filter caps and 10k3W and choke connections.  I am assuming that the layout left out a cap can with the 10k3W attached at the can?

I will likely make a layout that doesn't use a cap can and distributes the filter caps along the circuit.  I usually like to have each gain stage have a star ground that terminates at that stage's filter cap ground.  Those star grounds are then connected together to a global ground.