Suggestions for a Princeton-ish? Reverb build

[scubasteve20]

Hello everyone, I find myself back here after a very long hiatus. Introduction post here: https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=26376.0

I'm ready to build a new amp. It will likely be my only one, and will just be used at the house. I've been toying around with the idea of a Princeton Reverb for a while now but there might be something better suited to my needs. I don't gig at all, only play for fun & stress relief. Forgive me for the probable overthinking but here goes:

I'd like a small combo with reverb, don't need tremolo (would use the extra control holes for mid & presence controls probably), 12" speaker, and probably a MAX of ~15 watts or at least something with an easy option to attenuate. Reverb is required but I just opened up to the possibility of a pedal for reverb. I've only ever used built-in reverb so I don't know how the pedals compare. Effects will be limited to a tube screamer, light distortion, phaser, wah and possibly fuzz. Genre's I like to cover range from SRV, Gilmour, Knopfler, Gibbons, & general Southern & classic rock.

If there's a circuit suggested without much DIY support, I can handle making the layout & board myself. Maybe the answer is still the PR, possibly with mods. Or maybe something from the tweed era with a reverb pedal. Or maybe something completely off the wall & different.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Steve

[6v6Pin1]

I don't think it's possible to cover all that ground with one amp and speaker.

I built the Stout project here, adding the optional gain stage and master volume through a Celestion. I have lots of fun with that amp when I want to do the rock and roll thing.

For the bluesy stuff, I built Sluckey's Tweed Deluxe Reverb through a Jensen.

These amps are both very satisfying for me.

[scubasteve20]

I don't think it's possible to cover all that ground with one amp and speaker.

Yeah, after posting I realized that would probably be the top response. I don't need to nail all of those different tones. Just giving an idea of what I like to play. I guess I would prefer to keep it on the bluesier side & let the pedals get me into the heavier stuff. I'd be fine with a good bluesy tube amp and a modeling amp for the times I want heavier stuff. I'd say I play 70% blues, 20% rock, 10% metal & weird stuff. If that helps.

I'll check out the Stout and Tweed Deluxe Reverb. They seem like solid options. Thanks & keep 'em coming

[bmccowan]

6G2 Brownface Princeton is a sweet amp. Has trem but no reverb - so for your wishlist would need to be modified. You could delete the trem and add the one tube reverb that is a hot topic around here. I'm betting others here, Tubenit, Sluckey etc would help you figure it out.
After I wrote that I thought to look and saw this:
https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=23040.0
I'd also consider amps with 6BM8 tubes - a little less volume and nice tone. Tubenit helped me figure out a minimalist HoSo56 with those tubes and it sounds great. He probably has drawn up a version with the one tube reverb.

[shooter]

 
my experience with Senior Chief's, by the time they get that star, they don't know where they fit 


are you building to play?  go to a friendly music store plug in to a bunch, copy schematic, done
are you building to tinker with and play?  same as above with research
are you building "your amp" that takes ALOT of tinker and less play?  Start a check list <20W, Bias type, verb, head/combo............


whatever you pick, as you know, this IS the place for tube amp knowledge from easy to math that spins the head, enjoy the ride
 
FTM2 lantis

[tubenit]

PR ………. cathode biased ……….. one tube reverb ………… smaller value cathode caps then original ………… post phase invertor coupling cap .047 instead of .1.            It's a DRAFT idea ………… check for errors.

Just an idea to consider.  NOT saying you should do this.  I think it would be a fairly easy build to do and a good volume for playing at home with pedals.

With respect, Tubenit

[bmccowan]

Hey - that's cool Tubenit - I might have to build that myself as I've been wanting to try the one tube reverb. Tube numbering is off, I think.

[PRR]

...................... will just be used at the house....

House where? Brooklyn NY?  Brooklin Maine? Neighbor 20 feet away? or 2,000 feet?

In most "civilized cities", a Champ with a good speaker is more than ample for a non-paying un-willing "audience". A Champ is significantly easier to build. The AA Champ has the T-M-B tonestack (replace the fix resistor with a pot). Tube spring reverb is a headache, throw $59 for a digi-reverb pedal.

[bmccowan]

Agree that a Champ is more than loud enough. But P-P amps sound quite a bit different than SE. I like them both, so no judgement. I don't find tube spring reverb to be a pain. Well not too much of a pain.

[scubasteve20]

Thank you for all the replies!

my experience with Senior Chief's, by the time they get that star, they don't know where they fit 

Well, by the time I got there, I didn't fit much at all.. hence, retired. I had this habit of attempting to do what made the most sense. Know why the stars are upside-down?.... so I don't poke myself in the chin when I fall asleep at my desk!!! 

Seriously though... I'll try to address all replies now. I agree that a champ would get a lot of what I want tone-wise, but now I get a dedicated guitar room in a larger house. When I'm home alone I want to be able to get louder than necessary. Anything with 2 6l6/el34 would be just beyond overkill. I guess power tube distortion while still being relatively comfortable in the same room is the target. No worry of neighbors around here.

I do want the build to be a journey. "Easy to build" is definitely not required. I won't lie, I'm a practical (cheap) person typically, but this time I'm springing for the fancy components where I never would before, just so I know they're in there. 

@bmccowan, I've never made it a point to study the brown amps. I have experience with various tweeds and all types of BF/SF combos & heads. What is it about the browns that make you suggest them? I should get the old Gerald F. Weber books out, wherever they are.

@tubenit, I think your recipe sounds like where I want to go. I really need to study this one tube reverb.

I'm open to a master volume as well but I've only tried one that I really liked. It was on a Sunn 50w KT66 head I bought for $100. I tried like hell to blueprint that thing but could never replicate it. Something going on with the EF86 I couldn't figure out. It was probably broken in just the right way.

I'm also open to oddball tubes. Something non-standard for guitar amps where good NOS tubes can still be affordably had.

I have a lot of reading to do. I'm ready to start shopping but restraining myself to get a solid plan nailed down.

[Joel]

A fellow Avionics Tech!  You're clearly an all-right sort!  (Lets not discuss Navy vs Air Force shall we?)

I've built a few Single Ended amps because they were more "volume appropriate" and less likely to annoy the neighbours.  I haven't liked any of them.  And 5 Watts is seriously loud with an efficient speaker.  Seriously, you should go to a store and try some SE amps out and compare to PP amps.  I'll take my Hoffman single channel Deluxe Reverb with an attenuator every single day of the week over a Champ.  Yes, it's substantially more complicated.  But the sound!  Oh, the sound! 

From your description, I'd suggest something like a Princeton reverb with a dwell and mid control.  Chop out the tremolo if you don't want it.  Build an attenuator from here, https://www.marshallforum.com/threads/simple-attenuators-design-and-testing.98285/ (follow the April 2020 update link in post 1 for schematics) if you need to tame the volume (I've build two M2's, they're great! my build here: https://www.marshallforum.com/threads/simple-attenuators-design-and-testing.98285/page-56#post-2000422)

[tubenit]

I really need to study this one tube reverb.

Information, schematics and layout here:  https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=7957.0

[bmccowan]

@bmccowan, I've never made it a point to study the brown amps. I have experience with various tweeds and all types of BF/SF combos & heads. What is it about the browns that make you suggest them? I should get the old Gerald F. Weber books out, wherever they are.

A lot of folks say the Brown amps are midway between the tweeds and the blackface amps. I guess I agree. They emphasize the midrange more, and have some Marshall type grit to them. I have built a 6G2 combo and a 6G3 head with a VVR - like them both a lot. I also built a standalone reverb, so use that with them. I think you will find better information here than in the G Weber books. At least you get more than one jaded opinion here.
Having said that - I agree with others that beauty is in the ear of the listener. I have repaired many Gibson and Valco amps and love their sound too. But the ones that have reverb, have pretty crummy reverb IMO.
I have a cathode biased Princeton that I configured from a strange Canadian amp that had a combination of cathode and fixed bias power amp. Anyways, I rarely play it, so I may open that up and patch in the one-tube reverb.
Speaking of jaded opinions - here's one of mine. EL84 and 6973 amps need to be turned up too loud before they sound good. To my ears, 6V6 and 6BM8 and even 6L6 amps still sound good at lower volumes, especially if the B+ voltage is kept reasonable. But that could be just an Army/Navy thing. My Dad was an Army Air Corps pilot and our neighbor was a retired Naval Commander. They were great friends but the neighbor bought a canoe like my Dad's; capsized it the first day; dragged it up on shore; chopped holes in it with an axe and planted tomatoes in it. Hmm - it seems I digress.

[shooter]

And 5 Watts is seriously loud with an efficient speaker

keep speakers in mind, they can be up to 1/2 "that sound/tone"
since they will be just furniture (not dragged in a station wagon:)


another consideration, multiple amps
my current setup is a a 16W SE kt88 paired with a 12W pp 6V6, both sit fine on top a 2 X 12 cab (PP) with a 2nd 1 X 15 for the SE.  that way there's lots of options and you never have to leave home 

[scubasteve20]

Alrighty, I think I've narrowed down at least a few aspects.

- I definitely want a single 12 combo
- My heart tells me push-pull (thanks Joel, you nailed my sentiments on that topic)
- It also tells me 2x 6l6-based power section, those were always my favorite fenders that I've actually played through (Super Reverb, tremolux, etc... even tweed Blues Deluxe). But I will have to either have to attenuate or get darn close with 6v6's.

Sounds like a single channel deluxe reverb is the ticket. Possibly made simpler with single tube reverb, no tremolo. (does that schematic exist?) then plan to tweak the tone stack & re-voice as necessary. I basically understand what each component does in each position but would need some help tweaking to my liking.

In other news, I just discovered & downloaded DIY Layout Creator, so any spare time I would've had in the near future is shot. Man, I went through so much graph paper & eraser back in the day doing the same thing.

[sluckey]

This may give you some ideas...

     http://sluckeyamps.com/tdr/tdr.htm

[bmccowan]

An amp I've often thought about building is a 5E4-A Super. Nearly identical to the 5F4 Super but with 6V6s. The 5F4 Super is one of the best sounding amps I've ever heard. No trem to worry about deleting - just insert the one tube reverb.
Clearly you will end up building more than one amp.

[scubasteve20]

This may give you some ideas...

     http://sluckeyamps.com/tdr/tdr.htm

Any sound clips anywhere from this li'l guy? I can't seem to locate any.

[Leevi]

PR ………. cathode biased ……….. one tube reverb ………… smaller value cathode caps then original ………… post phase invertor coupling cap .047 instead of .1.            It's a DRAFT idea ………… check for errors.

Just an idea to consider.  NOT saying you should do this.  I think it would be a fairly easy build to do and a good volume for playing at home with pedals.

With respect, Tubenit

I have built several amps based on this kind of schematic. It works great. The reverb is not that strong as in the original Fender circuits.
/Leevi

[tubenit]

Here is a copy of the schematic for Sluckey's most excellent Tweed Deluxe Reverb.

Reference the link he posted:           http://sluckeyamps.com/tdr/tdr.htm

With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

Everyone has personal tastes and favorites in amp tone.  I will offer these ideas for your consideration still borrowing the foundation of Sluckey's AB763

I like a cathode biased amp where I can interchange 6V6 or 5881 or 6L6 without rebiasing.  I have two amps like this.
My personal preference for an amp where I can do that is a standup PT with 300-0-300 and at least 140ma.

Using a rectifier that is:

5Y3GT   300 X 1.1 = 330v                           I have used 6K6's for about 8 watts of power
5V4GT or 5U4GT    300 x 1.2 = 360v            I have used 6V6's
GZ34  300 x 1.3 = 390v                              I have used 6V6's,  5881's or 6L6's
solid state plug in   300 x 1.4 = 420v           I have used 6V6's, 5881's or 6L6's

It makes for a fairly versatile amp particularly playing at home. 

Using 6V6's, I have about 14 watts of power.   Using 6L6's,  I have about 23 watts of power from what I've estimated.

My preference is for lower value cathode caps on the preamp tubes.  I typically use 4.7uf or 5uf.  Occasionally 10uf on the first gain stage.  I also use 5751's in the V1 position and don't care for 12AX7's in V1.

IF you used a lower voltage PT   300-0-300  instead of 330-0-330,  you may wish to change one or two of the dropping resistors on the B+ rail to keep the plate voltages around 160-180v on the first two 12A_7's. 

Sluckey's schematic with my preferences attached.   It's a DRAFT idea.  Check for errors and compare with Sluckey's original.

With respect, Tubenit

[jordan86]

Rob Robinette has a Princeton Reverb with trem deleted. Can’t get much closer to your request than that. Will be in the 12 watt range as well. He also has some other mods and tweaks I found helpful.

https://robrobinette.com/AA1164_Princeton_Reverb.htm#Delete_Tremolo

[sluckey]

Hoffman too...

     https://el34world.com/Hoffman/files/Hoffman_PrincetonReverb_NoTremolo.pdf

[vampwizzard]

SRV was blackface amp. Gilmour was Hiwatt. Knopfler was JTM45/Plexi based amps. I think your best options are going to be a plexi build or something in the TDR by Sluckey family. All very good options.

[j_bruce]

So you and I like many of the same artists, both of us enjoys a varied "set list." It is great to be able to appreciate a wide range of music.

That said, I personally think that just because you like SRV and Mark Knopfler and you play (or try in my case) those songs it does not mean you have to (or even should?) try to sound like them.

Go find an amp you love the sound of clone it and use that to make SRVs material into your own thing. That's what i try to do: learn the song then put it out there the way my inner voice tells me. I never sound much like SRV, or Bob Dillon or Fogharty when I play their music (I don;t have the talent or experience) but I put my heart into it.

I would rather have some one tell me that "was a cool spin on Pride and Joy" than "you sounded just like SRV." (not that I wouldn't like to be able to play that well!!!)

Have fun on your project,
Jerry

[shooter]

My kid helps out newbies learn to play, one of the 1st things he does is dispel the "idea" that with guitar....and amp...., "I will sound like..." 
I'm anecdotal prof, I sound the same no matter what guitar OR amp I play 


But;
when you build "your amp", you WILL sound better, no matter who you cover, you put skin in the game, you up your game

[tubeswell]

Here's another 1-tube reverb idea (based on SW22R but without the Dumble pre-amp TS switching). To down-rate the output power, you could build in a simple 1/4 power attenuator switch (e.g. EC Tremolux) - then you have a gigging amp that you can play in your bedroom. This would be a very clean sounding amp. With MV to boot

[scubasteve20]

This isn't a "which amp to make be sound like ________" thread. Believe me, I'm not a good enough player, especially these days, and built/refurbished enough spectacular amps to know that's no golden ticket to get there. I'm in it for the build & research just as much as the final product too.

But;
when you build "your amp", you WILL sound better, no matter who you cover, you put skin in the game, you up your game

That right there nails it in regards to houses, cars, amps, guitars & anything else that involves time, planning & $$$$. I'm living proof that I'll be more motivated to play on stuff I built myself. My pending partscaster is getting plugged into this thing but luckily I've already got the plan for that.

I do think I've graciously been given enough ideas to put my amp plan together. Thank you all very much for taking the time to throw ideas out there.

@Tubeswell - Thanks, I will certainly look into that too. Tying in a non-standard reverb circuit is where I've failed in the past. Part of the reason I want to do this one right... redemption.

I'm going to do a loosely AB763-based combo where I can switch 6V6/6L6. That covers my favorite amps that really get me going. I think the Princeton just doesn't quite hit everything I want. Need that clean thumpy bottom end when I want it.... loudness be damned. I know this has been built & offered as a boutique from a few outlets. I'll for sure make changes to the voicing to make it my own, with help I'm sure.

I'm tired so I'll just ask now for a suitable PT for what I want. Need enough power for 4-5 dual triode preamps, a max of 2x 6V6 or 6L6, tube rectifier would be a nice OPTION but I see myself leaning towards solid state on the rectifier, 5v taps preferred but not a necessity. @Tubenit - which 300-0-300 PT are you referring to?

I can burn the next few weeks playing with circuit design & create a more appropriate thread for that.

Thank you all again for the inputs.

Steve

[jordan86]

I think an Allen TP25 and TO26 could work for that scenario. They are like upgraded Deluxe versions. A little more power and tone but not 50 watts loud. Or up the OT to like the TO35 or TO40 for a bit more wattage. I think he even sells a 38 watt OT if you call him. David is a real nice guy.
http://allenamps.com/trans

[tubenit]

Steve,

Sent you a PM with 4 different PT's that you can consider.

With respect, Tubenit

[sluckey]

I like Hammond transformers. You should be able to find a proper set of iron here...

     https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/guitar