What amp to build

[Grees01]

I want to start off by saying "Thank You" to the many people who have contributed to the 5F6-A Bassman Topic of mine. I wanted to do another related topic. I haven't had much if any success in getting people to post video's of their builds, and them playing thru them, to help me and possibly others determine which amp design would be a good / great choice.

So I wanted to do this topic with a poll and see how that turns out. First a little criteria to work with: What am I looking for? Well for the most part I tend to play on the cleaner side of the spectrum with maybe just a bit of drive the majority of the time. I like the ability to control the amount of grit with my pick attack. I also like a nice crunch tone, that will clean up with the volume control on the guitar. To this very date I can not get a crunch tone that I am really happy with. And every now and again I like a good heavily over driven gain sound (EVH) for example for a period of time, I can't listen to that for any great length of time, but it sure is fun for a bit.

I've always liked and used reverb, and I prefer some degree of wetness to the tone. I don't much care for a dry guitar sound. I would like to have an fx loop available. Delay and Reverb sound great in that spot, at least with my Triple Crown. And are currently the only two effects that I use.

How much power? Great question? For the most part I play here at home, although I have been over to friends in the past that play other instruments and hang out and jam. I want enough power to be able to do that if I want to, without having to mic a cabinet. What am I going to be using for speakers? I think I'll use my 4 x 12 Mesa Boogie slant cab rated at 8 ohms to start with, and may do something else in the future (maybe a 2 x 12) not sure. What format? I need a head, that will sit on top of my existing cab. Also for the weight. Combos get heavy and I already have back issues.


On the clean channel or setting I want depth, 3d type of sound, touch sensitiveness, with harmonic overtones, depending on the playing dynamic. Is the wish list pretty big? A FX loop doesn't need to be incorporated right off the bat, could be added later after the basics are working well. Also no need for a reverb circuit if there's a FX loop. Also I don't want to have to dime the amp to get good volume levels or tone out of it. I currently stand opposed to the idea of 1-15 watt amps. I think 30-40 watts is in the ballpark.

I'd like to get a handful of suggestions and run a poll to see how the votes tally up. In the 5F6-A Bassman topic there were a few suggestions for possible amps to build. I wanted to list those here as well.

1 5F6-A with EL34's
2 JTM45 with either 6v6's or KT66 as PharmRock has just finished (beautifully)
3 Plexi
4 JCM800 50 watt
5 Dumble clone of some type
6 Little Wing by Geezer
7 18 watt light by Tubenit
8 Tweed Overdrive Special 6K6 version. The lead tone sounded great on a clip I found on the amp garage website
Please feel free to add to the list anything you think may be a good fit for me, then I'll try to get it narrowed down so we can do a poll.

Thanks in advance for the help.
G.

[sluckey]

You may want to hang out at the Amp Garage, especially the Dumble Discussion forum.

[tubenit]

I currently stand opposed to the idea of 1-15 watt amps.

That rules out the Little Wing which is 7-9 watts  #6

That rules out the 18watt lite  #7        (not sure what amp you're referring to here?)

That rules out the TOS with 6K6's  which is 8 watts.    #8


With respect, Tubenit

[tubenit]

Also I don't want to have to dime the amp to get good volume levels or tone out of it.

And then there's this statement that you posted (above).  Several comments for you to ponder.  Years ago, I built a 23 watt 6L6 amp and had a friend play it comparing it to his JCM900 50 watt amp.  Very little difference in volume between those two amps & the 23 watt had better breakup at the volume he played with his band.

There are likely others ............ but the only amp I can think of where the breakup/overdrive is not connected to the power amp is the Dumble amps which have a stiff power supply and have the overdrive in the preamp section.  I've not played a Dumble but I've noted that the D-cloners claim being able to get great overdrive at pretty low volume levels.

I've had two amps that were 33 watts  (Carvin vintage 33) and 50 watts (MusicMan RD50). I am confident that both of those amps significantly contributed to my current hearing loss. I struggled to get a tone I liked without it being super loud with each of those.  I truly regret playing so loud and now having a hearing loss.

I think playing with most bands or when gigging in a small club, that an amp with 14-22 watts mic'd into the PA is usually sufficient.  I personally have no desire to ever have an amp that is over 23 watts again.  I have 3 amps that are 7watts, 14 watts and 23 watts.  The 7 watt amp (6BM8) is the one I end up playing the most.
A Deluxe Reverb at 22 watts for example is noted as a great "club" amp.   

IF you have a PT that is 300-0-300 and 150ma & use a tube rectifier and have your amp cathode biased then you can:

Use a 5Y3GT for 6K6's and 6V6's with about 330v on plates     
Use a 5V4 for 6V6's or 5881's or 6L6's with about 360v on plates
Use a GZ34 for 5881's or 6L6's with about 390v on the plates

6K6 is about 8 watts,  6V6 is about 12-14 watts,  5881/6L6 is about 23 watts in my two amps that use this approach.

(Note that 330v on 6K6's is pushing it though. So far, it's not been problematic for me.) 

Food for thought.  I'm not pushing an approach, just trying to give some info to consider.

With respect, Tubenit

[bmccowan]

The wattage thing confused me too and Tubenit covers that better than I can. I do like the sound clips of the TOS a lot and its on my ever expanding build list. For me I would build it low power, but for your needs, 2x6L6 I would think. I won't vote for a particular amp because there are too many factors. But I will add two general ideas: brownface 6L6 amps like the Super, and some of the 6L6 Valco circuits (not the Tbolt which I think sounds lifeless at lower volumes. I recently finished rebuilding a 6159 and was surprised how much I liked the clean sound. Watching videos to get an idea of an amps sound can be frustrating as many are just thrashing away at full overdrive. Leon C's videos are good in that he explains his recording setup as well as the settings used on the amp. Last idea - build at least 3 amps

[tubenit]

Over the last 15 yrs, I bet I've seen at least 100+  threads exploring how to get good tone at lower volumes.  Lots of comments about VVR, different master volumes, and attenuators of different sorts. Lots of  "I can't get my good tone from my amp unless I crank it up too loud" comments. 

I'm trying to recall any post on an amp building forum that complained about not having enough volume?  I'm not saying there haven't been any, but I can't think of any to the best of my memory?


Unless you're playing large venues or outdoors, I'm not sure you would need a 30-50watt amp?

Interesting article here explaining wattage and volume:  Doubling Power vs. Doubling Output – JL Audio Help Center - Search Articles (zendesk.com) 

My understanding is that doubling the wattage between a 50watt amp and a 100watt amp only increases the decibels by 3 decibels. I am understanding that to mean that a 25 watt amp is not that much less volume than a 50 watt amp?

with respect, Tubenit

[uki]

How much power? 

Where do you plan to play? Do you do many gigs? How big is the places you play?
Usually anything about 30-40w can cover most small places, small theaters, clubs. A small amp with more speakers can change the output, more speakers move more air. It isn't only about how much power the amp have, but how much air it is moving.

Now if you are new at building amps and electronics, go with something simple.

[SILVERGUN]

You may want to hang out at the Amp Garage, especially the Dumble Discussion forum.

Brown Note D'Lite 44 Schematic ?? - The Amp Garage


Here's a simplified Dumble design that would be easier to build than a full blown one.
There is a 6V6 version out there somewhere.

[PharmRock]

Hoffman Plexi 6V6 with Hot switch mod.  The hot switch mod is detailed on the Plexi 50 page but can be incorporated into the 6V6 version.
Its a Plexi circuit which would give you clean tones controlled by guitar volume, great overdrive when cranked, and the hot switch can put you into the cascaded JCM800 territory.

Or maybe Sluckey's Dual 50? Plexi + JCM800 http://sluckeyamps.com/index.htm

JTM45 or Bassman, use a boost pedal for extra overdrive.  The JTM45 with Kt66's is 30-35 watts (at idle anyways)


All of the above are easy circuits to incorporate a PPIMV as well as an effects loop (I used the Metro zero loss FX loop on my Plexi build and its great...$75).

[tubenit]

Here's a simplified Dumble design that would be easier to build than a full blown one.There is a 6V6 version out there somewhere.

It seems to be somewhat a challenge to find 6V6 BrownNote D'Lite versions?   I've attached two that I had in a folder.  Compare them and look for errors.


With respect,  Tubenit

[acheld]

As I read your post, you're really talking a Dumble Clone.   Which one (102, 124, 183) I'm not sure, but I think you narrowed your search already.

These are not simple builds.  I've been thinking about doing one, but with reduced power.  As I look at the schematics, there are so many switches and options for the signal path that it could really be a mess if you're not careful.

A fellow recently advertised his Dumble PCBs on this forum.  I checked out his schematics and they look well done -- copied straight from TAG.  Those schematics could provide a starting point for you.

[TitaniumValhalla]

It is an awful lot of time and money to build an amp from scratch, particularly higher wattage.

Personally, I would spend a few weeks visiting guitar shops and playing as many amps as possible to get a sense of what works for me and my playing. Even if you have to take a road trip here or there, it will be worth it if you find designs you like and go into it knowing exactly the sound you are after instead of hoping the design you build will work for you. Others may be able to point you in a direction but I wouldn’t trust anyone else to tell you what sound you will like because only you know.

[Grees01]

You may want to hang out at the Amp Garage, especially the Dumble Discussion forum.

 I hope your not suggesting that I leave this forum and hangout at the amp garage. I'm not sure how to interpret your comment. Maybe your pointing me in the direction of a Dumble style amp as being a possible good fit for what I'm looking for.
Respectfully.
G.

[acheld]

 

Sluckey also hangs out at TAG . . .

Your original post just points right to a Dumble clone!  And the TAG guys are all over that, probably more than this forum. 

[Grees01]

I currently stand opposed to the idea of 1-15 watt amps.

That rules out the Little Wing which is 7-9 watts  #6
That rules out the 18watt lite  #7        (not sure what amp you're referring to here?)
That rules out the TOS with 6K6's  which is 8 watts.    #8
With respect, Tubenit

Maybe a little clarification is in order with regard to the quoted statement.
I do generally feel that a 1-15 watt amp would be under powered. Why? I make that statement based on my practical experience. I could be wrong, and very well may be wrong. I don't have dozens of amps to compare, but of the two amps that I do have, one is rated at 50 watts, the Mesa Boogie Triple Crown 50, and the other is rated at 60 watts. About a 20 year old Hot Rod Deville 4 x 10 combo. The rating is over-rated really because that would be based on 100% plate dissipation, and they don't run at 100%. Both of these amps I play here in my little bedroom studio, no hearing protection at under 50% volume. Mostly the 50 watt. (Has better tone imho). Both of these amps are sufficient to play with others if desired. Both of these amps are manageable here with regard to volume. I'm not able to get into power tube distortion volume levels here, but none the less the 50 watt sounds great right here. I posted video of me playing thru it in the video clips section of the forum. I have also asked the question "is there a formula for calculating watts to db?" If you know the speaker specs. No one has answered that question thus far. And maybe that's not possible. My 50 watt amp setup the way it is and the way that I normally play here produces from 80-105db depending on the way I play. I don't need really more than 100db max (prolonged exposure to more than 100db) can cause hearing loss. So let me ask this? How many watts is needed to produce 100db? That would be good information to know. I will be using my existing 4 x 12 cabinet rated at 8 ohms. I never said that a 1-20 watt amp was not an option, I said that I stand opposed to the idea. (based on my experience) I welcome any dialogue that offers a different opinion or different personal experience.
Respectfully
G.

[66Strat]

I currently stand opposed to the idea of 1-15 watt amps.

That rules out the Little Wing which is 7-9 watts  #6
That rules out the 18watt lite  #7        (not sure what amp you're referring to here?)
That rules out the TOS with 6K6's  which is 8 watts.    #8
With respect, Tubenit

Maybe a little clarification is in order with regard to the quoted statement.
I do generally feel that a 1-15 watt amp would be under powered. Why? I make that statement based on my practical experience. I could be wrong, and very well may be wrong. I don't have dozens of amps to compare, but of the two amps that I do have, one is rated at 50 watts, the Mesa Boogie Triple Crown 50, and the other is rated at 60 watts. About a 20 year old Hot Rod Deville 4 x 10 combo. The rating is over-rated really because that would be based on 100% plate dissipation, and they don't run at 100%. Both of these amps I play here in my little bedroom studio, no hearing protection at under 50% volume. Mostly the 50 watt. (Has better tone imho). Both of these amps are sufficient to play with others if desired. Both of these amps are manageable here with regard to volume. I'm not able to get into power tube distortion volume levels here, but none the less the 50 watt sounds great right here. I posted video of me playing thru it in the video clips section of the forum. I have also asked the question "is there a formula for calculating watts to db?" If you know the speaker specs. No one has answered that question thus far. And maybe that's not possible. My 50 watt amp setup the way it is and the way that I normally play here produces from 80-105db depending on the way I play. I don't need really more than 100db max (prolonged exposure to more than 100db) can cause hearing loss. So let me ask this? How many watts is needed to produce 100db? That would be good information to know. I will be using my existing 4 x 12 cabinet rated at 8 ohms. I never said that a 1-20 watt amp was not an option, I said that I stand opposed to the idea. (based on my experience) I welcome any dialogue that offers a different opinion or different personal experience.
Respectfully
G.

Edit: Hit post instead pf preview

It depends upon the sensitivity of the speaker. A single speaker rated at 97 decibels per watt meter will produce 97 decibels of sound with the "first watt". The volume increase 3 decibels each time the power is doubled from that point on, i.e. 2 watts~100db, 4 watts~103db, 8watts~106db, etc.

Two speakers rated at 97 dbs per watt meter wired in parallel configuration have a combined sensitivity rating of 100 db per watt meter. Four speakers wired parallel ~ 103 db per watt meter.

[Grees01]

Also I don't want to have to dime the amp to get good volume levels or tone out of it.

And then there's this statement that you posted (above).  Several comments for you to ponder.  Years ago, I built a 23 watt 6L6 amp and had a friend play it comparing it to his JCM900 50 watt amp.  Very little difference in volume between those two amps & the 23 watt had better breakup at the volume he played with his band.

There are likely others ............ but the only amp I can think of where the breakup/overdrive is not connected to the power amp is the Dumble amps which have a stiff power supply and have the overdrive in the preamp section.  I've not played a Dumble but I've noted that the D-cloners claim being able to get great overdrive at pretty low volume levels.

I've had two amps that were 33 watts  (Carvin vintage 33) and 50 watts (MusicMan RD50). I am confident that both of those amps significantly contributed to my current hearing loss. I struggled to get a tone I liked without it being super loud with each of those.  I truly regret playing so loud and now having a hearing loss.

I think playing with most bands or when gigging in a small club, that an amp with 14-22 watts mic'd into the PA is usually sufficient.  I personally have no desire to ever have an amp that is over 23 watts again.  I have 3 amps that are 7watts, 14 watts and 23 watts.  The 7 watt amp (6BM8) is the one I end up playing the most.
A Deluxe Reverb at 22 watts for example is noted as a great "club" amp.   

IF you have a PT that is 300-0-300 and 150ma & use a tube rectifier and have your amp cathode biased then you can:

Use a 5Y3GT for 6K6's and 6V6's with about 330v on plates     
Use a 5V4 for 6V6's or 5881's or 6L6's with about 360v on plates
Use a GZ34 for 5881's or 6L6's with about 390v on the plates

6K6 is about 8 watts,  6V6 is about 12-14 watts,  5881/6L6 is about 23 watts in my two amps that use this approach.

(Note that 330v on 6K6's is pushing it though. So far, it's not been problematic for me.) 

Food for thought.  I'm not pushing an approach, just trying to give some info to consider.

With respect, Tubenit

Great information. Thank you Tubenit for sharing. Is it possible to make an amp in the way that you outlined with the ability to change output tubes without having to redesign the power section (maybe by having different dropping resistors on a switch or something like that? My Triple Crown has a little switch on the back to change from 6L6 to 6V6 /EL34 tubes which is pretty cool.
Respectfully
G.

[owen]

[So let me ask this? How many watts is needed to produce 100db? That would be good information to know. I will be using my existing 4 x 12 cabinet rated at 8 ohms. I never said that a 1-20 watt amp was not an option, I said that I stand opposed to the idea. (based on my experience) I welcome any dialogue that offers a different opinion or different personal experience.
Respectfully
G.

at what distance from the speaker? my 12 watt princeton punches over 100dB a-weighted fast response.

I’m big on sub 22 watt amps (keeping a deluxe reverb as a backline standard). articulate and capable of overdrive without being an overbearing PITA in a good band mix in a concert hall.

the 6 amps i’ve built so far have been under 35 watts (5 under 20 watts). all of them are too loud for a townhouse. the 6l6 brown super i’m finishing up has a good blend of air-pushing power, and clean dynamic response for fingerpicking. but it’s the tweed harvard, tweed deluxe, and brown princeton clones that get all my playing time.

[Grees01]

The wattage thing confused me too and Tubenit covers that better than I can. I do like the sound clips of the TOS a lot and its on my ever expanding build list. For me I would build it low power, but for your needs, 2x6L6 I would think. I won't vote for a particular amp because there are too many factors. But I will add two general ideas: brownface 6L6 amps like the Super, and some of the 6L6 Valco circuits (not the Tbolt which I think sounds lifeless at lower volumes. I recently finished rebuilding a 6159 and was surprised how much I liked the clean sound. Watching videos to get an idea of an amps sound can be frustrating as many are just thrashing away at full overdrive. Leon C's videos are good in that he explains his recording setup as well as the settings used on the amp. Last idea - build at least 3 amps

Good advice. I have watched a few of Leon C's video's. Probably should check out quite a few more. With regard to the last idea.....
Sounds good. Let's see how the first one goes for me, when I finally get a design nailed down.
Respectfully
G.

[Grees01]

Over the last 15 yrs, I bet I've seen at least 100+  threads exploring how to get good tone at lower volumes.  Lots of comments about VVR, different master volumes, and attenuators of different sorts. Lots of  "I can't get my good tone from my amp unless I crank it up too loud" comments. 

I'm trying to recall any post on an amp building forum that complained about not having enough volume?  I'm not saying there haven't been any, but I can't think of any to the best of my memory?


Unless you're playing large venues or outdoors, I'm not sure you would need a 30-50watt amp?

Interesting article here explaining wattage and volume:  Doubling Power vs. Doubling Output – JL Audio Help Center - Search Articles (zendesk.com) 

My understanding is that doubling the wattage between a 50watt amp and a 100watt amp only increases the decibels by 3 decibels. I am understanding that to mean that a 25 watt amp is not that much less volume than a 50 watt amp?

with respect, Tubenit

I'm going to take a look at the referenced link. I remember looking at an article that was similar. It's weird how that works> If volume levels are n fact similar between a 25-50 watt amp. Then a 25 watt amp might be just fine. Thanks for sharing the link.
Respectfully
G.

[Grees01]

How much power? 

Where do you plan to play? Do you do many gigs? How big is the places you play?
Usually anything about 30-40w can cover most small places, small theaters, clubs. A small amp with more speakers can change the output, more speakers move more air. It isn't only about how much power the amp have, but how much air it is moving.

Now if you are new at building amps and electronics, go with something simple.

I haven't been out to play with others since the advent of Covid-19. I don't play in a band, so I don't do gigs. Never was an amazing guitarist. Mostly just play for myself these days, and sometimes share with others. Used to jam with a few friends back a number of years ago, but people moved, I moved. la la...
Respectfully
G.

[Grees01]

You may want to hang out at the Amp Garage, especially the Dumble Discussion forum.

Brown Note D'Lite 44 Schematic ?? - The Amp Garage
Here's a simplified Dumble design that would be easier to build than a full blown one.
There is a 6V6 version out there somewhere.

Thanks SilverGun. I'll take a look. Hopefully there's sound and video clips.
Respectfully.
G.

[Grees01]

Hoffman Plexi 6V6 with Hot switch mod.  The hot switch mod is detailed on the Plexi 50 page but can be incorporated into the 6V6 version.
Its a Plexi circuit which would give you clean tones controlled by guitar volume, great overdrive when cranked, and the hot switch can put you into the cascaded JCM800 territory.

Or maybe Sluckey's Dual 50? Plexi + JCM800 http://sluckeyamps.com/index.htm

JTM45 or Bassman, use a boost pedal for extra overdrive.  The JTM45 with Kt66's is 30-35 watts (at idle anyways)


All of the above are easy circuits to incorporate a PPIMV as well as an effects loop (I used the Metro zero loss FX loop on my Plexi build and its great...$75).

Hey PharmRock!!! Fabulous job on your Plexi!!!! Looks amazing!!! Congratulations. Great reply to this topic as well. From what been posted so far, I think a Dumble of some flavor, Plexi of some flavor, Perhaps the JTM-45 should be on the list for the poll. Not sure what else yet. Maybe a low wattage amp. Plenty to consider.
Respectfully
G.

[Grees01]

Here's a simplified Dumble design that would be easier to build than a full blown one.There is a 6V6 version out there somewhere.

It seems to be somewhat a challenge to find 6V6 BrownNote D'Lite versions?   I've attached two that I had in a folder.  Compare them and look for errors.
With respect,  Tubenit

Thanks Tubenit. Always appreciate your input. Not sure why your text is grayed out. I will check it out.
Respectfully
G.

[Grees01]

As I read your post, you're really talking a Dumble Clone.   Which one (102, 124, 183) I'm not sure, but I think you narrowed your search already.

These are not simple builds.  I've been thinking about doing one, but with reduced power.  As I look at the schematics, there are so many switches and options for the signal path that it could really be a mess if you're not careful.

A fellow recently advertised his Dumble PCBs on this forum.  I checked out his schematics and they look well done -- copied straight from TAG.  Those schematics could provide a starting point for you.

Hey there acheld! Thanks for posting. A Dumble has been mentioned a few times now. Definitely worthy of some investigation. I'll have to look for the PCB post and do some reading. Thanks for sharing.
Respectfully
G.

[Grees01]

It depends upon the sensitivity of the speaker. A single speaker rated at 97 decibels per watt meter will produce 97 decibels of sound with the "first watt". The volume increase 3 decibels each time the power is doubled from that point on, i.e. 2 watts~100db, 4 watts~103db, 8watts~106db, etc.

Two speakers rated at 97 dbs per watt meter wired in parallel configuration have a combined sensitivity rating of 100 db per watt meter. Four speakers wired parallel ~ 103 db per watt meter.

Thank you. So I need to know the specifics for each speaker in the cabinet, not the impedance of the cabinet to do the calculation?
Hmmmm.. Let me see what I can dig up on the speakers in the Mesa Cab, and how there wired.
Respectfully
G.

[uki]

I don't play in a band, so I don't do gigs ... Mostly just play for myself these days, and sometimes share with others.

Your answer help you a lot, lets say an amp with 15-20w probably will do!

Have you build an amp before ?

[Grees01]

[So let me ask this? How many watts is needed to produce 100db? That would be good information to know. I will be using my existing 4 x 12 cabinet rated at 8 ohms. I never said that a 1-20 watt amp was not an option, I said that I stand opposed to the idea. (based on my experience) I welcome any dialogue that offers a different opinion or different personal experience.
Respectfully
G.

at what distance from the speaker? my 12 watt princeton punches over 100dB a-weighted fast response.

I’m big on sub 22 watt amps (keeping a deluxe reverb as a backline standard). articulate and capable of overdrive without being an overbearing PITA in a good band mix in a concert hall.

the 6 amps i’ve built so far have been under 35 watts (5 under 20 watts). all of them are too loud for a townhouse. the 6l6 brown super i’m finishing up has a good blend of air-pushing power, and clean dynamic response for fingerpicking. but it’s the tweed harvard, tweed deluxe, and brown princeton clones that get all my playing time.

Hi Owen. So glad you chimed in. Well I don't have a professional Db meter. I'm using a little iphone app, actually very cool little app with a lot of features. I'm doing a weighted as well, 200ms response time. Very interesting that your getting 100db at 12 watts. Single speaker? For me with regards to distance from the cabinet, I'd estimate approx 8ft from me to the cabinet. Can you provide an average db rating range just playing normally? for me it's approx 80-105 ish. How far are you from the speaker?
Thanks
Respectfully
G.

[Grees01]

I don't play in a band, so I don't do gigs ... Mostly just play for myself these days, and sometimes share with others.

Your answer help you a lot, lets say an amp with 15-20w probably will do!
Have you build an amp before ?

Hey uki! Nope, never have built an amp before. Repaired my own, and replaced all the filter caps, plate load resistors, and a handful of tone shaping caps and resistors on a printed circuit board. "Fromel Amp Upgrade Kit for my Hot Rod Deville." Plenty of experience building other things, don't anticipate problems with the mechanical end of the build. Just short on understanding the electronics and how everything works and influences everything else.
Respectfully
G.

[tubenit]

Is it possible to make an amp in the way that you outlined with the ability to change output tubes without having to redesign the power section

All I do is change the power tubes and the rectifier tube. That's it!  No other changes.  It's cathode biased.  I don't rebias anything nor change any component values inside the chassis.  I've done this successfully for quite a few years with both amps. Never had a problem with it.


with respect, Tubenit

[SILVERGUN]

You may want to hang out at the Amp Garage, especially the Dumble Discussion forum.

Brown Note D'Lite 44 Schematic ?? - The Amp Garage
Here's a simplified Dumble design that would be easier to build than a full blown one.
There is a 6V6 version out there somewhere.

Thanks SilverGun. I'll take a look. Hopefully there's sound and video clips.
Respectfully.
G.

I have built something similar and this is a good example of how they sound when recorded through a crappy phone mic.
Brown Note D'Lite 22 and Gibson Les Paul - YouTube

[PRR]

> at what distance from the speaker?

Inside a home, use the 1meter or 4' number. Sound {in a room} from a small source drops with distance, until it hits earlier sound coming back from the walls. This "critical distance", where reverberation equals direct sound, is ~around~ 4 feet in most domestic rooms. A little less if you have an *empty* basement (is there such a thing?). A little more in large rooms, to 11 feet in a 600 seat concert hall.

So 94dB SPL/4', plus 10 Watts which is +10dBW, makes 104dB SPL theoretical max. With meter bounce and the musician's ability to hit peaks in the speaker response, sure call it 105dB SPL max.

100dB SPL is LOUD. You have already killed ear cells. They don't die right away. I have been hearing my ears die for decades. I really think sub-Watt amps are much wiser. The chest-thump is pleasing but NOT worth it when you can't understand your partner or your children.

[glass54]

Just to add to PRR's comment, losing your hearing REALLY isolates you from friends and family. I have friends who suffer reasonable frustation because they cannot enjoy music/concerts at reasonable listening levels and find it hard to socialize, even in outdoor cafes. (These people were NOT in the Construction industry!)
Just picked up some info from your CDC/NIOSH pages:

NIOSH – Criteria For a Recommended Standard: Occupational Noise Exposure
NIOSH establishes Recommended Exposure Limits (REL) for noise based on the best available science and practice. The NIOSH REL for noise is 85 decibels, using the A-weighting frequency response (often written as dBA) over an 8-hour average, usually referred to as Time-Weighted Average (TWA). Exposures at or above this level are considered hazardous.

Note that this is an "A weighted" response and the real levels (Flat or C-weighted) can be much higher at Bass guitar and Electric Guitar can be approximately +16dB at 125Hz and +26dB at 44Hz
Regards
Mirek

[tubenit]

losing your hearing REALLY isolates you from friends and family

This is correct!  Without a hearing aid, I have to somewhat supplement my hearing by reading lips.  So, can you imagine the complications of that in a world where everyone is wearing Covid masks.  Complicate that further with individuals with accents wearing masks. Add in some background noise masking what people are saying in a social setting and you are truly isolated. If you want to know what the experience is like with a hearing loss, try wearing earplugs or stuff your ears with cotton & dine out with friends at a noisy restaurant. 

Fortunately, it is just a frequency range that I've lost in my hearing. Unfortunately, it's a range of woman's voices. Not good if you're married and genuinely care what your beautiful wife is saying.  There is not just a loss for the individual with the hearing problem, there is a loss for everyone around them trying to communicate.

So ...............  here is where I am today in my thinking ............

It has taken me years of amp building & experimenting, but I feel like I've been able to get a reasonably "big" tone out of a small amp.  This sound clip was done with 6K6's (8 watts) being recorded at about conversational levels.   https://soundclick.com/r/s6v2i4

My opinion is that if an amp is built and sounds reasonably transparent where you can easily hear individual notes when chording, then it's possible to get a reasonably "big" tone from that amp even with a 10" speaker and under 10 watts.  Just a thought.

IF you're not playing out in clubs, do you really "need" a 30+ watt amp?

Mark Twain reportedly said " if I had known that I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself".  I totally relate to that especially when it comes to my hearing. 

With respect, Tubenit

[bmccowan]

I'll add to the caution. Another problem is Tinnitus. I developed it in my early 50s and have had it for nearly 20 years. It may also be present in combination  with hearing loss. It is very annoying and despite the snake oil sellers, there is no cure. Many musicians have it. I now play electric for only short periods to test amps and then pick up an acoustic for my other playing. Playing electric for more than 15 minutes sends my tinnitus over the top for at least 12 hours. Sucks.
Back to the blizzard.

[shooter]

Another problem is Tinnitus.

I 1st noticed I have  it shortly after I got out of the Navy, was 25-ish.  The 1st time it occurred I can still "see" today!
I was convinced that sound inside my head was the reason people wore tinfoil hats!! 
now I just think it's God downloading a software patch 

[PRR]

> shortly after I got out of the Navy

If you can document hearing loss from military service, you may get compensation. Especially if you can document a difference between enlisting and discharge hearing test. VA hearing aids run good to very-good (I "hear").

Problem is: if you are the age I think, the testing was cruder than today, and records have faded or been lost over the decades.

[shooter]

Problem is:

ya at 65 i'm good for now.  I run my own test every few years, sig gen, scope, head set
pretty good from low bass to 10khz, then I drop like a rock, by 15khz there's nothing, even ran it through a 2X12 cab with a 30W amp cranked, nada!!  watched the speaker shaking dust, the scope working fine.  zero sound.


the ringing, chimes, dial-up modem sounds inside the head gets a little interesting but not problematic

[owen]

[So let me ask this? How many watts is needed to produce 100db? That would be good information to know. I will be using my existing 4 x 12 cabinet rated at 8 ohms. I never said that a 1-20 watt amp was not an option, I said that I stand opposed to the idea. (based on my experience) I welcome any dialogue that offers a different opinion or different personal experience.
Respectfully
G.

at what distance from the speaker? my 12 watt princeton punches over 100dB a-weighted fast response.

I’m big on sub 22 watt amps (keeping a deluxe reverb as a backline standard). articulate and capable of overdrive without being an overbearing PITA in a good band mix in a concert hall.

the 6 amps i’ve built so far have been under 35 watts (5 under 20 watts). all of them are too loud for a townhouse. the 6l6 brown super i’m finishing up has a good blend of air-pushing power, and clean dynamic response for fingerpicking. but it’s the tweed harvard, tweed deluxe, and brown princeton clones that get all my playing time.

Hi Owen. So glad you chimed in. Well I don't have a professional Db meter. I'm using a little iphone app, actually very cool little app with a lot of features. I'm doing a weighted as well, 200ms response time. Very interesting that your getting 100db at 12 watts. Single speaker? For me with regards to distance from the cabinet, I'd estimate approx 8ft from me to the cabinet. Can you provide an average db rating range just playing normally? for me it's approx 80-105 ish. How far are you from the speaker?
Thanks
Respectfully
G.

i was curious how far from the cabinet you wanted to hit that mark, and was going to suggest speaker efficiency and wiring got me there as posted above, but now i don’t recall if you were speaking of clean headroom or not.

12ish feet away was getting over 105dbA peaks with 2x10 jensen alnicos. volume on 7-8 so full saturation and compression with a stock fender jaguar. 80-105dbA is about right.

Currently I have 2x10 ceramics with higher sensitivity, or a 1x15 weber neo. I’ll take a measurement when I’m back at work, and add in an average SPL over time of 5 minutes playing some rock standards.

I’m using a class ii calibrated measurement microphone and either Smaart or 10eazy software.