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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Speaker effciency question....  (Read 9302 times)

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Offline G._Hoffman

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Speaker effciency question....
« on: December 16, 2008, 11:51:35 pm »
OK, so I'm starting on my Vibrotone/Leslie cabinet, with the plan being to run it off of my (heavily) modified 18 Watt (it's kind of half a stout, half not, but with two preamp sections running in parallel).  So the amp is an open back combo running a Greenback, and I got another Greenback for the new cabinet.  But it just occurred to me that the new cabinet is (and must be) a closed back, which will make the speaker less efficient. 

My question is, will this cause me problems? 

Obviously, it won't damage anything, but am I going to get a huge volume drop when I switch to the new cabinet?  This will of course be exacerbated by the fact that the Vibrotone speaker has to shoot through the rotor, and then through the Leslie style slats.  Am I going to have to get myself a more efficient speaker, or maybe even make a bigger amp for this thing (along with a more powerful speaker, of course)?  I really hope not, as I'm dirt poor right now.


Gabriel

Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 11:58:40 pm »
I almost forgot - I've got a picture rendering from my CAD program.  I'm actually in the process of generating an animation of it right now, actually - a ten second animation that is taking my computer about 20 hours to render!

The size is about 18" wide by 24" tall.  I hadn't put in the speaker baffles yet in this picture.  I'll put up the video once it's done rendering (in about 5 hours - 12 frames per hour! - I guess the file's a little big!)  The speaker is in the bottom, and the motor and control electronics are in the top.


Gabriel

Offline Frankenamp

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2008, 12:56:17 am »
Looks nice. The HF director 'scoop' should be made out of some fairly thin plywood like benderboard that is flexible on one plane only. The shape it is bent into should give it most of the needed strength. As you are a luthier of renown I will assume that you have some pretty decent sources. For the cabinet and the director assembly I suggest using PL premium (polyurethane) adhesive. Use rubber gloves and keep body and facial hair clear or you will be swearing at instead of by the stuff (one member of another board recounted his experiences of getting some PL stuck in his nose hairs  :o  ) DONT use traditional glues on the enclosure or the scoop. I'm visualizing a few ways to accomplish it- the key is to keep the curve as large and gradual as possible  for a more 'natural' sound. Midrange frequencies tend to follow gentle curves more easily. A more 'honky' solution would be to experiment with some sections of 6" PVC or ABS drain fittings 45 or 90 would work- especially a 45* with a band saw taken to the upright opening (90* to the horizontal plane) so that it is oval instead of round- should tame the honk quite a bit. If you want to experiment withe plastic... Rout a groove so that it is inset into the 'turntable', and run a legnth of drill rod from the drive pulley to the centre of the deflector (epoxy the hell out of it) I assume you have looked at most of the online Leslie info including the styrofoam rotored guitar roto-speaker? Your drawing looks like you either turned the bass leslie upside down or turned the roto-speaker on it's side... well done either way!

As for the efficiency- It won't be much less efficient than an open backed cabinet if any less at all. An open backed speaker box (dipole radiator) allows the backwave to bounce around the room which assists off-axis response. This is percieved as higher efficiency. A speaker that is xdB efficient will have the same electromechanical efficiency in any direct radiator enclosure. Only a horn will increase efficiency substantially. The Leslie- style diflector is not a true horn, and will not give any appreciable gain. 
Best of luck on your project!
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Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2008, 04:26:04 am »
I suggest using PL premium (polyurethane) adhesive. Use rubber gloves and keep body and facial hair clear or you will be swearing at instead of by the stuff (one member of another board recounted his experiences of getting some PL stuck in his nose hairs  :o  ) DONT use traditional glues on the enclosure or the scoop.


OK, your going to have to explain that one to me.  As a guitar builder, I consider polyurethane glues to be evil, because they don't dry very hard, they foam up, and they have a damping effect on sound.  They also don't have nearly the heat resistance that more basic wood glues have.  They are, I suppose, OK for high moisture situations, but I'd rather use epoxy if I need something water resistant.  (I know they clam otherwise, but testing in the real world by a bunch of other builders and repair people I know all agrees - polyurethane is for the apes ;))  Not something I want.  The way I cut joints I don't need a glue to be gap filling.  This is my job, after all.  To give you an idea of the tolerences I like to work to, when I cut the dadoes for the sides of the rotor tonight, the actual sides are .466", and my dadoes are .469".  Once I put glue in there, it will be tight as can be (the water from the glue will make everything swell just a bit.

My usual glue is LMI's Instrument Makers Glue (basically, Tightbond without the yellow dye), which is what I am planing to use for this, because (second to hide glue) it is the hardest drying glue that has real strength from multiple directions (cyanoacrylate is harder, but is only really good for direct force - any lateral blow makes it give up the ghost pretty quick).  Frankly, when you make joints right, the glue isn't much more than a precaution.  I've already started on the rotor, and when I dry fit the sides I had to use a hammer to get the thing apart.  I'm not worried about this thing falling apart. 

Hell, if I can think of a way to clamp everything up fast enough, I might even decide to use hide glue, which is the unquestioned king of musical glues.  I doubt it though - you just don't have much open time with hide glue.

I'm using 1/2" veneer core baltic birch plywood for the whole thing, though I haven't decided what I'm doing for the scoop yet.  I was just going to do a flat slanted piece, sanding it to a high grit, and finishing it with something nice and hard (lacquer or shellac - probably shellac since it is quicker and easier) to keep things nice and bright.  A parabolic reflector would be nice, but getting the dadoes right is something I find a bit mind numbing.  I know how to do it, but it would be more than a bit of work.  This thing is being built for fun, not for profit, so there actually IS such a thing as good enough.  Besides, the rotor is actually one of the easier parts of this thing, and it's not too expensive (being a professional wood worker has some real advantages - wholesale prices on plywood really help a LOT).  If I need to experiment after it's done, I can do so pretty easily.  The jigs I need to make it were quick to make, and are useful for other projects as well.



I haven't trimmed the sides of the rotor yet.  That comes after I rout the dado for the scoop, which will likely be tomorrow night.  My current plan for the sides is to finger joint them.  As I move this thing along, I'll be posting pictures on my Flickr account.


Gabriel
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 04:31:50 am by G._Hoffman »

Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 04:34:10 am »
Oh, and yeah, it's basically a Vibrotone turned on it's side, though I'm using the Leslie slats (because everyone seems to think that's part of the sound).  It's probably going to be a while before I can cover this thing, so I can see if the slats are a good idea before I actually have to commit to them.

By the way, how does a ten second video end up being almost 1 gig?  Well, 821 MB, at least.  It's taking Youtube a long time to upload it.


Gabriel
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 04:36:29 am by G._Hoffman »

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 09:01:36 am »
As to vol imbalance - it is good to anticipate a possible problem; but the problem may never come into existence.  I think it will be easier to address a real life issue, if and when it actually exists.  Probably the simplest and cheapest fixes would be to a) use an L-pad attenuator on the louder speaker - that's either a special rheostat available at www.partsexpress.com, or 2 fixed resistors set-up as a voltage divider to the speaker, with values that don't change the impedance as seen by the amp; or b) if overall impedance allows, switch-in the leslie along with the combo speaker. 

Google: L-pad calculator.  There are free calculators on the web to get resistor values.  Ted Weber also has a caluculator and gives wattage ratings too.  Power resistors are cheap.  So are rheostat L-pads, which have the benefit of being adjustable.

It may also be possible to put the louder spaeker up against a backwall, maybe even facing the backwall, to kill volume; and place the other speaker closer to the audience.  That's free, if you already have long enough cables.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 09:19:02 am by jjasilli »

Offline Frankenamp

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 10:00:22 am »
Gabe: I was pretty sure of that response from the git-go because you are an instrument builder, and from the pics I've seen a <fill in yer favorite adjective> good'un! Speaker building is different from instrument building in a few ways- one is volume, speakers are designed to be reproduced (audiofools excepted) by any number of people with less than stellar woodworking skills. Another thing is that speakers are designed to take much more abuse than an instrument. If you are going for looks- a nice natural or stained finish with fingerjointing, I would still use polyurethane- but switch to a thinner bodied one like Gorilla glue. In sealed enclosures, the tiniest air leak can cause havok with the sound. The biggest reason for a poly glue is that it is a leetle flexible. The enclosure can stand being kicked around (or bounced out of a pickup truck) a lot better than conventional glues. I think you are definatly on the right track with the wood- Rooskie Birch is one of the best. Lots of thin plies, and if it is adequately braced, half inch birch ply is as good as it gets. The guys that tell you that you need two inches of MDF are usually full of (formaldehyde fumes)... I will definatly suggest that if you can devise a way (even if you hand laminate a few thicknesses of veneer) to put a curve on that deflecter. The mid sound waves follow a curve best, highs can be bounced like light off a mirror but think of mids acting more like a fluid. Bass frequencies just don't see anything smaller than their wavelength.

Addendum: +1 to JJasilli, Let's git 'err' done and fired up! Then we will know fer sure whether we need to worry about balancing volume levels might be a case of overthinkin' (something I have stood guilty of many a time)  ;) I ain't a degreed injuneer, but I tend to think like one more often than not- why use a grade 5 bolt when you have all those lovely grade 8's...
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 02:17:27 pm by Frankenamp »
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Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 01:38:34 pm »
As to vol imbalance - it is good to anticipate a possible problem; but the problem may never come into existence.  I think it will be easier to address a real life issue, if and when it actually exists.  Probably the simplest and cheapest fixes would be to a) use an L-pad attenuator on the louder speaker - that's either a special rheostat available at www.partsexpress.com, or 2 fixed resistors set-up as a voltage divider to the speaker, with values that don't change the impedance as seen by the amp; or b) if overall impedance allows, switch-in the leslie along with the combo speaker. 

Google: L-pad calculator.  There are free calculators on the web to get resistor values.  Ted Weber also has a caluculator and gives wattage ratings too.  Power resistors are cheap.  So are rheostat L-pads, which have the benefit of being adjustable.

It may also be possible to put the louder spaeker up against a backwall, maybe even facing the backwall, to kill volume; and place the other speaker closer to the audience.  That's free, if you already have long enough cables.


Well, if it comes to that I already have a Weber Mass for this amp that I never use, but driving the speaker until it breaks up is part of the sound of the amp, so I'm not wild about that idea if I can avoid it. 

What I really need to figure out is a way to wire up a relay or two so I can run either speaker at 8 ohms or both in parallel at 4 ohms.  But I'm not going to worry about that just yet.


Gabriel

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 06:31:27 pm »
Well in that case, the presumed low vol of the leslie cab may be perfect to run WITH the combo.  Or if the 2 combined are too loud then attenuate the leslie, so that the 2 combined are not too loud.  I.e. it might not be necesary to run the leslie alone, to get the desired effect. 

Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2008, 10:36:23 pm »
Well in that case, the presumed low vol of the leslie cab may be perfect to run WITH the combo.  Or if the 2 combined are too loud then attenuate the leslie, so that the 2 combined are not too loud.  I.e. it might not be necesary to run the leslie alone, to get the desired effect. 

Oh yeah, I know that.  Like I said, I want to have the option of one, the other, or both, which will sadly take two relays, but that's not a big deal.  I don't have my camera with me at the shop tonight, so I can't take any pictures, but I've got the rotor dry fit together (with a flat scoop - I'll almost certainly try it with a curved scoop at some point, but this is a lot easier so I'm going to try this first).  I also bought the last of the wood tonight, and I ordered some 3/4" shafts from McMaster-Carr for the axles.  (I really love the McMaster-Carr website.  Truly some of the most perfect web design I can think of...they are sometimes a bit more expensive, but when you factor in the time I save finding stuff it's a bargain!)


Gabriel

Offline Frankenamp

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2008, 11:16:25 pm »
+1 McMaster-Carr
Gotta love the customer service, they can pull up your customer info from your caller ID. They have screwed up maybe one or two orders in the last ten or twelve years that I have been doing business with them- one was the wrong size hose washers, can't remember what the other one was... Pleasant people to call in to. Wife went into Graingers and thought it was the world's best industrial toy store (she hasn't seen the McMaster book).  ;D

If the Leslie isn't loud enough with the combo, just mike it and put just enough into the PA to get the desired effect... Stereo and one on each side if you want the Pat Methaney feel!
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Offline PRR

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2008, 02:51:23 am »
> An open backed speaker box (dipole radiator) allows the backwave to bounce around the room which assists off-axis response.

It is actually more efficient, total power to room, as long as the baffle is "large".

And even when not large, there is a significant null to the side, more directivity, less mud in large rooms.

When baffle can not be "large" (about 6 feet for guitar), the open back cancels its own bass, and a closed back makes more bass. But less bass projection.

I would "worry" about the differences in frequency response and directivity response. But that IS the main point of this project: throw sound all around cyclically.

3dB ain't much, and you got 3dB and larger variations in many more places than what you do with your back radiation.

That small back(bottom) box may give a strong mid-bass bump, rather than the bass slump of a portable open-back baffle.

Wobbly tone tickles the ear more than steady tone.

Half the time, your midrange is NOT hitting the listener, but thrown sideways. (This is true for all listeners but at different times.)

Not to mention the midrange effects of the proposed scoop. Hold a teacup near your ear. Now hold half a drywall bucket over your head. Move it around as you hear complex music. Lots of stuff happening.

The mouth area of the scoop is not large. Below ~~600Hz it isn't very directional, some comb-filtering. What would be VERY different is a rotating dipole. Put your open-back on a turntable. This WILL be directional down to the lowest note, with a phase inversion as the front or back of the cone faces the specific listener, and a deep null so the listener hears only the diffuse sound from the other corner of the room. But the idea of a good-bass dipole (30" wide) turning at interesting speed is a bit frightening. And it begs for beer-can pinball.

Build. Play. Enjoy. Or change.

Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2008, 04:17:42 am »
And it begs for beer-can pinball.


That would be a problem, since all the beer I like only comes in bottles.  (Actually, they are making Fat Tire in cans now, but they aren't shipping it to Minnesota yet!  >:( )


But your right, this thing is intended to change the way things sound.  A Leslie isn't so much a sound reproduction device as a sound modification device.  My only big concern is the level differences.  But I guess we'll just have to see.  (My concern, going back to my mostly forgotten college acoustics classes, was the whole sealed cabinet pressure build up thing, where by the air pressure inside the cabinet keeps the speaker from moving as freely as it would in a ported or open back cabinet and makes the speaker that much less efficient - but those classes were more than ten years ago now, and while I've done a lot of sound work since then, this just hasn't been something I needed to think about.)


Gabriel

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2008, 09:09:26 am »
Well, good luck with this project.  Let us know how it turns out.  I've been toying with the idea of building or refurbishing a leslie speaker -- I just passed up a very reasonbaly priced Cordovox leslie-style cab on eBay.  Hard to justify as I just don't have the time & space which is already taken up with a backlog of guitar and amp projects. And it's interfering with my time available to play guitar.

Old saying:  you kow you're in trouble when your hobbies are interfering with one another!

So I've been living with tremolo.

Offline PRR

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2008, 12:52:16 am »
> air pressure inside the cabinet keeps the speaker from moving as freely as it would in a ported or open back cabinet and makes the speaker that much less efficient

It's not that simple.

> college acoustics classes

Professors (who don't really do it) are often murky on details; what I find odd is that practicing professional speaker engineers don't really grok the Basic Principles. Don't need to: all the basics were worked-out 1927-1936, most useful speaker configurations were commercialized back then, all else has been details.

Re stiffness: take the shocks off your car. Stomp the bumper. A car bounces about 2 per second, 2Hz. This could be predicted if you knew the car mass and the spring stiffness.

Now grab the bumper and try to force the car to bounce 10 times a second. It will take real force. You are fighting the car mass. The faster you try to go, the harder you have to push.

Yes, the stiffness is still there. But when you shake a spring/mass system faster than natural frequency, the mass is the larger effect. If you get an octave above resonance, the mass is practically the only thing you fight. Double the spring stiffness, and it is still mostly mass. 

Geetar speakers resonate near 100Hz. By 200Hz, the stiffness hardly matters, and we still have 200Hz-1,000Hz of good piston action. Things get messy past there, but one thing for sure: by 1KHz, the sound wave doesn't even reach the back of the cabinet in time to affect the cone. We are transitioning to wave-world, where wave effects will help or hurt depending on even or odd number of waves in the path.

Stiffness (suspension and box) shifts the resonance in frequency and height. A naked hi-fi speaker has a deep weak resonance. We put it in a box to bring resonance to Q=1 (neither weak nor strong) at whatever frequency that happens. Gitar speaker tradition is a fairly high ringy resonance, as-if a fairly small box (high stiffness) were built-in. Then large changes in box size give small changes in resonance. And the range an octave higher, even a half-octave higher, is just not affected by box stiffness. A big boomy or weak gutless bass resonance affects your perception of midrange, but the midrange itself is not much changed by the box.

If you were very desperate for BIG LOUD SOUND, to be sure all 3,000 in the crowd go home deaf, you know you want four or eight large cones (and maybe more than 18W?). Been there, done that, and know there is some market for less beastly sound to smaller crowds. And most cow-palaces now have OK PA systems, OK enough for the people who like mega-concerts.

As for 3dB: in most profitable venues, at max profit, most of the absorption is people. Hard tables, hard chairs, cheap or no carpet, low ceiling, no tapestries. But the fact is that you pack the room only rarely, and over half the time you play to a half-crowd or less. A half crowd absorbs 60% of a full crowd, so you need 2 or 3 dB less acoustic power. Do you normally count heads and then go home to find amp/speaker pair to suit exactly that size of crowd? No. You play what you got. Exact power is not critical.

Offline Frankenamp

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2008, 11:59:24 am »
3 dB aint much sound, but it requires twice the amplifier power to do it.  After you get past the first 150 watts, you start running into diminishing returns real fast. Above 200-300 watts (if the driver can take it) more watts go into making excess heat (power compression) than go to making more dB.

As for the venue- you are at the mercy of what is built (and the number of water bags to absorb the highs). This is why the poor sound guy likes his RTA EQ's...
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Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2008, 01:10:06 pm »
As for the venue- you are at the mercy of what is built (and the number of water bags to absorb the highs). This is why the poor sound guy likes his RTA EQ's...


I used to be the lighting/maintenance guy at a theater in Boston.  One of the things about the room that was really great when you did sound in that room is that the seats had exactly the same absorption coefficient as a person, so no matter how full the room was it sounded the same.  Kind of cool, that.  Also, there were some wicked side to side standing waves that never really effected the sound coming out of the speakers (different axis), but which made the applause sound huge - so if you keep the low front light up high the band will think they have a sell-out crowd when they really only filled half the seats.  Acoustics can be FUN!


Gabriel

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2009, 06:22:13 pm »
Hi Gabe:

I saw this on Fleabay and thought about your project:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140308045364&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

How's it working out?

Frank
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Offline G._Hoffman

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Re: Speaker effciency question....
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2009, 06:05:48 am »
It turns out that mounting the rotor is a PITA.  I think I've figured out most of how to do it, but I need to drill some 1 3/8" holes in some steel plate, and I don't have the right tool.  But I believe I've found a way around it.  The electronics are done, at any rate, but I've been kind of ill-motivated through the latter part of this (bloody cold!) winter this year.  Too much time playing video games, not enough riding my bike, building guitars, or working on projects. 


Gabriel

 


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