My daughter's horses (I hate horses again)

[Dave]

I recently retired from the military and moved back home to NE Texas. My daughter has been bugging me about geting some horses so I bought her a couple of paint colts.
I told her early on that I was going to work with the horses extensively before I would let her get very involved.
My wife is kind of dainty and girly so it has been quite a chore to get her to be of much help with the whole process.
But..... in the last few weeks, she has learned a lot about horses and she has invested herself more and more into the idea.
Now, we get up every morning and work them out and really have a good time doing it. It has begun to be something that she and I do together and it seems to be contributing something nice to our relationship.
She is still pretty scared of the colts because they are colts and hadn't been handled much until we bought them, they are jumpy and spooky and that lends to her fears. Slowly but surely, though, she is cowboying up and they are settling down.
Its fun.

Dave

[tubenit]

Wow!  That is totally cool!

Where in NE Texas?

With respect, Tubenit

[Dave]

We are in a little town called Celeste. It is about 40 miles north of where I grew up, so it's a little easier to do what I need to do because I know people in the area.

Dave

[tubenit]

I've been to Cooper Lake and fished Tawakoni, Lake Lavon, Ray Hubbard, Winnsboro,  etc.....

You're not too far from those and from Commerce & Greeneville, Tx.  I know the area.  Nice area to be in.

With respect, Tubenit

[Dave]

Yes sir. You've got it. I grew up in Emory about 10 feet from Lake Fork. But that is a relatively new lake. They didn't start damming it and filling it until the late 70's or early 80's.
I was born in Greenville.
Anyway, you are right. Its a pretty nice area and a pretty safe place to raise kids I think.

My wife has never been around horses, so its fun to help her to get it.
My daughter is entirely too zealous about it, so I have to keep her reigned in.

Dave

[billcreller]

That really sounds great. Good to hear you enjoy horses.  My wife (2nd) had a quarter horse when we got married (1975) She didn't ride him much, and he was more of a pet than a rider. I had a lot of fun with him though, like hiding in the woods and brush, and watching him try to find me.
 We did finally sell him though, since keeping him was getting to be too much expense and work.

[Dave]

When I was growing up my daddy was a horse trader. So, although I have been around and dealt with horses more than the average blood worm, I have never really warmed up to a horse before. In other words, we didn't have horses as pets or even partners in crime. We were permanent and horses were transient, so this has been a new experience for me too.
Interestingly, as a study in human nature, it is notable that I have put a lot more effort into these two horses than I ever did with my father's caballos.

Dave

[shortfuse]

Hey Dave that's great.  We have 7 Horses but a sorta divided house.  My wife has been and still is a trainer in the English world.  Older daughter is a hunter jumper and dressage.  My youngest daughter and myself compete in Cowboy Mounted Shooting.  She also does ranch trail and reining cow horse.  I have only been riding for 4 years but thoroughly enjoy it.  Plus I always know where the girls are they are in the barn or on their horses with their friends that do the same.  Keeps them out of trouble, teaches them responsibility, and did i mention keeps them out of trouble LOL.

[Ritchie200]

hey guys,
I am horse poor too.  Started in horses in 1979 at a hunter jumper barn.  Went to countless seminars and clinics.  Got good enough to do some eventing and really enjoyed the cross country portion - that was back when falling off only hurt for a few minutes, now it hurts for weeks...months....  At this point I realized I was pretty good at it, but realized something about the men in the english world, shortfuse you can ask your wife about that....  THe owner of the barn had several Saddlebreds which I also showed.  Great fun, but I was not a "gated" kind of person.  I moved to a western barn and eventually showed english, western pleasure, halter, western riding, and reining with several horses that I trained.  Also did some team roping.  Started taking on adult clients and eventually wound up with them and four youth riders that I was dragging around the country.  I really thought I could make a go of it as a trainer, but in Missouri it was too seasonal.  Besides, as many of us know, when a hobby becomes a business a lot of the fun goes out of it.  So I scaled way back and got a real job.  I campaigned a stallion in Quarter Horse for a few years and met my future wife when she brought her horse to me for training (she has been training me ever since...)  Her best friend married a BIG Saddlebred breeder in Indiana.  We partnered on several William Shatner western pleasure horses that I took to the championship.  Our kids showed when they were smaller, but now they have other interests.  Although my youngest went to several hunter jumper schooling shows last year.  For the most part we just have four pasture ornaments.  I lost my stallion about ten years ago, dying in my arms - that was really really tough, he was 28.  I lost his last baby (22yrs old) two years ago.  And I lost a gelding (25yrs old) last year that I used to do a lot of bridleless demonstrations on.  He was my buddy. Would come when called, bow, lay down, and would follow me around like a dog - truly one of a kind.  Another tough tough loss.  We have a friesian cross/sporthorse yearling and she will be BIG.  I may be hitting the show circuit in a few years jumping again.  Its a lot of fun, but not like it used to be 20 years ago.  Over the years I've seen a lot of abuse by other trainers and even owners.  The more money is involved, the worse it seems to get.  The shine was lost a long time ago in my eyes.  Now I just do it for fun.  We trail ride quite a bit too.  A girl down the road does cowboy mounted shooting and it looks like great fun!  We also have a little bay mare that is pretty quick with a good head that I could probably shoot off of....hmmmm!  Horses are a great sport for kids - as it does keep them out of trouble!

Jim

[Dave]

You guys are talking over my head. My experience with horses kind of went like this........
Buy a bunch of green horses, ride the crap out of them to make sure that they won't buck when a potential buyer comes to look.
Sell them. Take the proceeds and buy more.......... Repeat.

I never knew anything about English sweet bread racing or Portuguese muff muff jumping. Not that I have anything against it.
Like I said, there wasn't much enjoyment from horses  when I was growing up, it was a chore.

My aim with these colts is to make them as gentle as lambs. I want to experience horse pets, and I don't want my daughter to have the same indifferent attitude about them that I always did.

On the other hand, I might like to shoot up the town from up on top of my hoss sometime.

Dave

[shortfuse]

Dave all ours are pets as well as competition horses.  Heck you should hear my wife when i let the mini come in the family room and watch TV with me.
We should sell 2 of the horses because they came in as rescues we brought them back to health trained them to sell and now the girls cant sell them so no more freebies come through the driveway gate because they never leave.
There is nothing wrong with gentle I like them like that.  My horse thinks she is a dog and would probably try to sit in my lap if i let her.  And then when we put on the shooting gear she knows her job.

[Dave]

How long does it take you to get the horses to the point that they don't flip out when you fire a gun from off their backs?

Dave

[shortfuse]

It really depends on the horse.  We have one that never cared about gun fire and took to it right away and we have some that it took a long time.  It is kinda funny most of mine didn't like the balloons: moving, blowing up ect...  and didn't mind the gun fire.  We always put someone on the horse in an arena with other horses and keep them at the outside rail and have someone stand in the middle and fire the blanks straight up in the air while the horses are moving.  Usually starting out with 22cal working up to 45LC 1/2 loads the 3/4 to the full competition loads.  They will typically side step or make a quick movement the 1st go round.  Once desensitize from the noise and smoke the trick is to start all over again shooting from their backs.  There are a lot of mounted shooting clubs throughout the country.  Going to a club practice / clinic is better because you will get your horse in the arena with horses that already do it and don't spook and speeds the process up.

[Dave]

I've been around and worked with more horses than I could even try to attach a number to, and I can tell you that I have no reason to believe that if I had fired a gunshot from on top of any of them I would have had an instant 1200 pound kicking thrashing enema.

Dave

[Dave]

Ironically, I went out on Saturday Aug 21 to check out an 11 year old close relative to my daughter's horses. I wanted to see how he had filled out over the years. He only weighs a little over 1500 pounds, so he is just a wee little huge son of a gun.
The owner offerd to let me ride him and I accepted.

I rode down a trail about 100 yards when I got the wierd feeling that he was about to throw a fit. Then, he did. I have been thrown many times in my life, but this was the first time an international panel of judges gave me 3 10's for form as I turned a double forward feet-in-mouth summer "assault" super flip.

I broke 3 transverse processes in my back. Yippee! Been paying for it for 4 days now and I am back to disliking horses.

Dave

[EL34]

I have disliked them since I was about 10
My sister was riding with friends when her horse took off for the barn and would not stop
Messed her up pretty bad.

They crap all over the trails
They destroy the trails by taking a divit of dirt out with every step.
The next time it rains, that dirt leaves the trail
They step off the lower edge of the single track trails and destroy the down side of the trail so that it washes away

Tons of trails around here are becoming a mess because of them.

Other than that, I like them.

[Dave]

Other than that, I like them.

Yeah, well..... The two most serious injuries I have suffered in my life have both been directly related to horses.
When I was 15, I was kicked pretty bad. The horse's left foot tagged my hip while the right foot landed right on my left testicle.
I was pretty much praying for death. That little event left me bed ridden for about 2 weeks. But hey, that was 25 years ago. Right?

So, this morning while my wife was dragging my lame butt out of bed and as I grimmaced in agony, I thought to myself........
Screw horses!!!!

Other than that, I like them too.

Dave

[Ritchie200]

"left testicle"   I'm sure you heard a collective gasp after you posted that!

Been dumped and bucked off many a time.  I just don't bounce like I used to.  I'll add to the list - and this was back when I used to bounce...  

Riding a 2yr old in a round pen (solid boards all the way up about 8ft.)  She bucked me off and I cracked my noggin on the boards and did not know which way was up.  She ran around the pen bucking and ran over me not once, but twice, then stopped, stuck her nose in my face and was like "what the heck are you doing down there?!"  Lots of bruises and tore up my ankle pretty bad, which got infected and still looks like a bad 3rd degree burn to this day (that was 20yrs ago).

While riding I got kicked in the kneecap by a loose horse also in the pen.  Broke my kneecap into 4 perfectly proportioned pieces, beautiful plus (+) sign on the x-ray - the doc was impressed...

Got kicked in the hip and launched into the upper corner of a yearling's stall.  Some of the most beautiful colors I have ever seen on a human being were on my hip.

The best for last.  Had a mare flip over on me due to a broken bit (not her fault)(or mine!).  The saddle horn hit about 6 inches from my throat, broke my elbow, and cracked five ribs.  I could not breath for about ten minutes (so it seemed..).  Got back on until the numbness wore off and I realized how bad I was hurt.  I had great insurance back then and my primary was great friends with a specialist in St. Louis that has done the majority of the Tommy John surgeries for major league pitchers.  He wrapped it, put it in a sling, told me not to move it or use it, and then told me I would lose 20-30% range of motion in that arm.  Well BS on that!  I still had clients horses to ride and stalls to clean.  Went back 2 months later and put the sling back on in the car before I went in.  He checked my range of motion and screamed at me, "WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN DOING TO THIS!!!"  He scared the crap out of me and I explained that I could not just be an invalid, my customers, blah, blah...  He then went on to tell me this impact break was very common in athletes and car accidents, he has written papers on the treatment and has trained other docs in the treatment.  I had full range of motion without pain and this was the first time he had ever seen a recovery like that in 20+years he has been studying it.  He then brought in 3 assistants who video taped and wrote down the exact motions of cleaning a stall.  I had to give him length and weight of the manure rake, average weight of each scoop of manure, time between scoops, time between stalls, total stalls, total per day, weight of wheel barrow, distance pushed....  I told him that Jim's Physical Therapy, Inc. was just about to open.  I have plenty of stalls to clean and the horses crap nonstop all day!  Interesting side note....  My first visit to his office, David Lee Roth was sitting in the waiting room.  He had screwed up his knee.  I guess this guy was good!

The bad part about trail riding is my dislike of the mountain bikers!  They are always flying, completely out of control, around a blind corner, knocking over the trail markers, and trying to spook any horse within ten miles.  The tire ruts cut through all the downhill water control swales, causing total washout.  The tires also dislodge the packed rock out into the middle of the trail, and push out the berms on the corners, also causing washout and potential hoof issues and lameness.  On the somewhat level areas, the ruts collect water, become saturated, and the next rain washes it out, compounding the ever deepening chasm!  They will pull downed trees and rocks out into the middle of the trail so they can "pretend" to be trials riding.  The worst part is, the riders urinate along the trail - it STINKS!  The department of conservation in my state actually has a open firearms season on mountain bikers.

Other than that, I like them.
Jim

[Dave]

Hmm, I'm starting to see a pattern here. Has anybody ever been saved by a horse? I didn't think so.
Horses are evil. They are obviously demons sent straight from hell to hurt us.
I saw a guy lose an eye.
I saw a girl get laid down on and then the horse refused to get up.
I saw a guy break his hand.
I saw a guy break his leg.
I saw a guy break his arm.
I saw a guy get his back hurt so bad that he was never able to sit again. Lie down or stand up, that's it.
I saw a guy get hurt one time so bad that after he recovered, he looked like Quasi Motto.
I saw a dog get his face torn off from the nose to the ears.

And I have seen all those horses not care about the damage they caused.

Other than that, I like them.

Dave

[shortfuse]

Well I like them, especially for doing this this.  Stress relief

[Dave]

Don't take me too seriously. I am mostly just complaining because I can't move. Not being able to move kind of pisses me off.
As soon as my body starts working again I will probably try to like the demons again.

Dave

[shortfuse]

Believe me with 5 of them under 5 years old I understand your pain.

Steve

[Dave]

I got up out of bed all by myself this morning. Already I am warming back up to horses. I guess they'll have to fool me three times before I'll start looking for a place to put the shame. Hopefully the third time doesn't kill me.

Dave

[Frankenamp]

Hope you get better soon!
I've had my share of horse stories... From the time I was7 or 8 until I was 19-sumpthin I was planted in a saddle any time I could. Been kicked (not in da nutz please) foot stepped on too many times, dragged along the fence (splintery 2X12 & bobwire both) dumped in the dirt a few times, run under a low hanging branch by a Shetland (the devil's own breed) pony and had pieces of the branch by a dug out of my skull by my loving (didn't think so at the time ) mom with plenty of rubbin' alcohol. Guy Duncan (old Texas cowboy) had a big grey offspring of Charlie Chicken and an old palomino mare named Nancy. Fastest thing I ever been on. One time I was working him in the corral- turning him into the fence, neck reining with a hackamore etc... and Guy had just come over to the gate to tell me that it was time to bring him in. Well, said horse decided it was about time as well and in the last turn he just kept spinning and kicked up his heels a bit and slid me down his neck taking most of the hackamore with me... Fortunately for my jewels, I was in a saddle with the horn (pommel) cut off which saved me from instant membership in the fellowship of the castratti. The horse also picked the softest (deepest sand in the corral) place to dump me. I thought that was most considerate! Guy said he wished he had a movie camera to film what he saw! There was another horse who if I remember right, was named "Snort" because he did that often and with feeling. The other thing he was good at was finding things to get spooked at. One time the little (14 hand) bastard swelled his chest (and I didn't catch it until a bit late) and managed to loosen the cinch enough to cause trouble. I noticed the saddle getting a bit loose and was about to get off and fix it, when he broke in two with a spectacular fit of bucking. The saddle was flopping around enough for a good bit of daylight between it and his back. I decided that it was time to bail after the fifth or eighth buck and started trying to set up for a jump one side or the other. The horse would not cooperate. I set to jump right he'd spin right, I set to jump left he'd spin left... finally tossed me in a patch of scrub oak & blackberries. About half the saddle made it back to the barn hanging under his belly, which made the silly horse try to kick it off- left bits and pieces for miles. Funny now, but wasn't then- last time I fell for that trick.  The Guy I rode with specialized in 'problem horses' attitude problems etc... most horses have the brains and temprament of a four or five year old- as long as you understand that- and that the five year old weighs twelve to fifteen hundred pounds problems are few and far between. Long before horse whisperin' got popular it was a matter of letting them know who was boss- which  meant staying in the saddle, and finding creative ways to correct behavior problems. The one horse that sent me to the doctor was a sneaky b*thc. Smooth gait- like riding a caddillac, but if she thought you weren't paying attention she'd pull stuff. I was cooling her off from a ride and taking her around the barn one more time... and woke up in a hospital bed with a bunch of PO'ed nurses- I must not have been a model patient while I was out. Had a couple of knots raised on top of my noggin and after 40+ years I still don't know how- was either taken under the eaves, or tipped over on the blacktop or sumpthin? All I remember was that the nurses did not care for me at all- what could a 9 or 10 year old brat do? 

[Dave]

Hope you get better soon! 

Thanks brother.

Here's what I think..... Horses are definately terrorists and a lot of us humans have a wierd hippo-centric Stockholm syndrome.
I just made myself laugh and it hurt.

Dave

[PRR]

> most horses have the brains and temprament of a four or five year old-

Advice, please?

My neighbor owned a miniature horse. So small they put him through Seeing Eye Horse school but he grew over the height limit. He has to lift his head to put his chin on a kitchen table.

Neighbor had to let the horse go because of children's allergies.

My wife thinks it would be great to have a horse.

Wife has horse experience: riding, mucking stalls, and currying. I rode a horse once and my butt hurt.

My feeling is that a full horse is heavier and taller than an ElectraGlide, likes things quiet but can raise hell at any time.

I've had a dog the size of this mini-horse, so I know roughly how much hell a critter that size can make. And obviously you don't ride a mini-horse, avoiding the runaway and throws.

I don't have a clue how much food/money a horse, however small, eats. Or what the Vet charges. (Being a cherished pet instead of livestock, ailments you might overlook we'd have to get treated.)

For more fun: we have two Corgis. I think at first meeting, both the horse and Corgis will be a bit jumpy. And I think in a few days they will be nodding-friends.

I have some skill in dog-whispering and general think-like-dog. I understand that a horse is a completely different mind, and we'll have to learn each other.

Is this a bad idea?

Or just about like a large dog, only different?

[shortfuse]

PRR
  I have 2 Mini horses they eat 1 serving cup of food twice a day and aprox 2 flakes of hay each a day that can be less if you have grass but they will still need hay.  Yearly vet fee same as any other horse can vary depending on your vet.  We give all our own shots about 100.00 a year.  If they don't travel off your property you don't have to pull a coggins.  Farrier bill can vary but should just need to be clipped once every 6 weeks should be about 25.00.
Our mini's share the back yard with 2 pugs and a 5 lb yorkie poo (I know manly dogs).

[Dave]

If you have good grass, the feed bill will be minimal. You ust have to watch them and make sure they look healthy. If they start to look poor, then up the feed.
Horses don't get sick very often. Certainly not as often as we do and when they get sick, it usually takes care of itself in a few days. Serious illnesses that require vet services are infrequent.

Horses are prey animals in nature and dogs are predators. They can learn to get along fine, but its not automatic.

On that note, people are also predatory. When a horse looks at you, he knows what you are so you have to work with horses routinely to keep their insecurities to a minimum.

The problem is that other prey animals (IE goats or sheep or whatever) can't usually stomp your guts out when spooked.

It sounds like the horse you are considering has been thru a lot of training, so that is promising. But here are a few things to keep in mind.... Horses are highly motivated by tasty food and sex. Either of those things can give a horse tunnel vision. That may sound familiar and even endearing, but you and I when motivated by tasty food or sex still tend to exercise a little self control.

I say do it, but be open minded and eager to learn and be prepared at all times to get the hell out of the way.

Dave

[PRR]

"No" grass. Well, 1/10th acre of what may be lawn next summer but right now is straw, mud, and seed. He's welcome to nibble the lawn, but I don't think 1/10th acre in Maine is steady feed even for a mini-horse. Numbers for regular horses go 2+/- acres, so Niles would be ripping-up roots by September and starving November-April. Fortunately the next town over seems to be all hay-farms (I think it is a tax-dodge, but they do have to sell some).

> people are also predatory

I got some recipes. :confused2: But I'm not equiped to butcher and freeze a year's worth of meat. And the Corgis don't seem to know what to do with recently-live food, they are spoiled by kibble. A dead bird is an odd toy, not a snack. But the horse knows we could eat him any time we wanted.

> Horses are highly motivated by tasty food and sex.

Dogs too. At least the food; my dogs are neutered. I don't know Niles' sexuality. 

[Dave]

Here's a couple of things to consider......

Looks like you'll be feeding some hay. You have to store it dry. It will rot if you leave it out for him.
If you feed square bales, they are packed together in what look like "butter pats". We call "beads" where I'm from. You can give him a couple of beads a day and see how he does and adjust from there.

In nature, horses eat only grass so any feed you give him will be to supplement, but grass or hay should be his staple.

You can feed a horse too much and kill him (or cripple him). Its called "foundering". You should read up on it just so you are educated on the issue and you don't kill him with love.

Dave