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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces  (Read 24630 times)

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Offline Platefire

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Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« on: December 21, 2013, 08:09:43 am »
Yes it is in pieces but appears to be all there. The head cab is covered with snake skin like material.
The circuit had been severly hacked. The chassis SN is A 17329 puts it at 1974. On the back is says "Fullerton Ca". So from what research I've done so far, think the schematic is AA165. The existing board is pretty pitiful. Was thinking at first I wanted to bring it back, but it's a longer stretch than I had hoped. I will take some pixs soon. Platefire
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 05:36:10 pm by Platefire »
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 03:02:53 pm »
 :sad2:

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2013, 11:15:37 pm »
No, but that's good!  :l2: cause I got that and a bunch of other stuff for $20.00 which includes, a Fender Excelciar OT, a set of fender cab tilt back legs, a solder sucker, small SS Dukane PA head, Shure Mic pre, Box full of miscl parts/connectors/standoffs/jacks/plugs--plus the fender head came with a brand new unused OT that looks same a Doug's Bassman OT(big). So I'm not crying, but happy!!
Platefire
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Offline eleventeen

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2013, 11:23:15 pm »
WOW, that's an incredible haul of tinkering parts for cheap! Nice job!

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2013, 12:14:19 am »
I'm crying cause you guys get all the good junk  :sad2:

Offline Slimtim

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2013, 01:52:37 am »
$20,impressive.

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2013, 09:03:27 am »
Well this all came from a musician friend and fellow tube amp lover/tech I think was under pressure from his wife to clean house, so he called me about the Pro head and piled all the other stuff on after I got there. He was in the process of cleaning out. Realizing this, next time I talk to him I will inform him that he went overboard and I will gladly give anything back he has second thoughts about. Knowing him, it's a done deal. Platefire
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Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2013, 04:31:24 pm »
Here are pictures of the snake skin pro.
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Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 04:34:40 pm »
Mo pixs:     On the OT shown below, I haven't researched those numbers yet to see what it actually is but I believe it was purchased to go with this head but never used.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 04:40:06 pm by Platefire »
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Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 04:37:34 pm »
This is the reverb Tank. I haven't researched yet to see if it is compatable with the pro circuit.
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Offline tubenit

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2013, 04:44:32 pm »
Wow!  What a mess!   :sad2: :dontknow:

IF it were mine, I'd gut it ................ clean it up and put in a Hoffman AB763 board and make it look & sound great.  I'd keep the PT & OT and pots if they're good and replace just about everything else including sockets if they need it.

You do GREAT work!  Do something really spectacular with this amp, Plate!

Best regards & respect, Tubenit

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2013, 05:01:35 pm »
Fun! Great haul!

Don't know if you can save that "snakelex" covering such that is looks workmanlike. Appears that the amp chassis was at least stored in the cab so that the chassis is not banged up, meaning bent, deformed. That's most fortunate.

As I said in a previous discussion of some other ratted-out (meaning corroded) Fender head, I wouldn't be in that big a hurry to chuck the parts board & contents. I *would* experiment with some 91% rubbing alcohol on a section of same to see how much crud it might remove. If alcohol submersion can clean it up, you could form your own loooong "bowl" out of some plastic sheeting draped inside a picture frame of 2x4's. Fill it up w/alcohol and drop that board in it, you never know, you might be able to clean it up adequately with $5.50 worth of alcohol along with a slightly stiff brush of some kind you get at the 99 cent store. That's if you determine you have to cut away every wire. Before doing that, I'd just get it back to stock circuit-diagram wise and plug the sucker in. Replace the filter caps, that's certainly a given, but you'd have to do that anyway. Worst that happens it blows up. Second worst, you get it working but cannot overcome the effects of the corrosion, eg; it makes gremlin noises you can't chase down and kill.

Excellent score, Merry amp-fiddling Xmas!

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 07:57:38 pm »
Thanks, tubenit

I like the idea of restoring the original pro reverb circuit but boy! would that be a job! That's what I leaning to but not sure yet.

I just did a little research and I don't believe Fender ever made the Pro Reverb in a head or I can't find one. Someone must have cut this cab down from a combo or made this head cab.

The output transformer is a New Sensor Corporation NSCO18343 universal/bassman OT 4/8/15 Ohm taps.

The reverb tank is Accutronics 9AB3C1B Long 16 3/4" three spring, Long Delay. Input Imp 10 Ohms and output 2575 Ohms. Made in Korea.

eleventeen---yep! I've pondered on if there is any hope for that old board but the more I think about it, you could put a lot of time into trying to patch it up and still end up with not much. You can't see the terrible hacking someone had done up and down the board. If it was all intact, I might try to fire it up but you would have to redo all the locations where they added components and changed stuff. They have a double pot MV installed, plus another midi pot in the rear through one of the old rca plug holes. It would take a lot of correcting to get close to a test. Platefire 
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Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2013, 07:07:34 am »
Te pro was never offered in a head.  If a fender head has reverb, it is going to be the larger head.  Snake tolex I cannot remember a special issue of silverface 70's Pro head in snakeskin.  I do not remember snakeskin in the 70's.  That doesn't mean there was not.

The OT is a multitap replacement.  Looks like a fine amp to mod to your taste and making it a great players head.  Great score.

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2013, 12:28:19 pm »
Hello Ed

Yeah, I recall the Bandmaster Reverb head I had years ago was a tall head. So that probably means the tank couldn't fit under the massive OT and tubes of this head cab. As a matter of fact I don't have any speaker cab as wide as this head. Any cab I got, the pro head would be hanging off the sides  :dontknow: Platefire
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2013, 02:09:48 pm »
... So from what research I've done so far, think the schematic is AA165. ...

AA165 would have been a blackface amp; however, AA1069 is a silverface Pro Reverb.

AB668 would also be a silverface Pro Reverb, in the 1st year they transistioned to those cosmetics, but I haven't seen a schematic floating around for it.

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2013, 09:20:43 pm »
HBP--If I could sound like this dude on the beat up strat on this vidio--I'd rebuild it back stock in a NY second.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTzWPrpb-q0&feature=player_detailpage#t=104

BTW-How do you get the youtube video to appear in post, I've done it before but can't remember what I did?

« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 12:40:22 am by Platefire »
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Offline SoundmasterG

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2013, 01:53:12 am »
You could use a Super Reverb or Bassman OT instead of the New Sensor one you have and get higher power....the Pro Reverb used the same OT as the Vibrolux, and while they do sound good, they are lower power for the same basic circuit as the larger Super Reverb or Bassman. If it was mine I would probably do that, maybe add power scaling and a MV in place of what they put in there, use a Hoffman board, and make channel 2 stock and go with something different for channel 1. I'd leave it in a recovered head too. But thats me...

I'm sure you could turn it into something cool!

What a rats nest on that wiring!

Greg

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2013, 08:54:24 am »
HBP--If I could sound like this dude on the beat up strat on this vidio--I'd rebuild it back stock in a NY second.

Sounds like a Strat and a Fender amp... With the right speakers that shouldn't be hard.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 08:56:51 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2013, 12:36:13 pm »
HBP---Well a lot of that combination is in the dudes hands and his ability that I come up short on that end in comparison to him. Can't tweak that into an amp. On the other hand I'm thankful for what ability the Lord gave me and will put it to use!

Still pondering the fate of the pro. Something nice to think about. Platefire
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Offline woolly

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2013, 06:34:16 pm »
maybe get an eyelet board and rebuild close to original.

Offline LooseChange

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2013, 04:28:00 am »
Before a total rebuild, I would try to put is back to original and see how much work really needs to be done.
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Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2013, 12:58:10 pm »
LooseChange, your playing my song! My heart has been telling me to restore and get existing up and running and my heads been saying, "too much trouble", gut it and rebuild. I tend to agree with you and follow my heart.

I pulled the chassis out last night and really gave it a thorough examination. It appears to some degree someone was trying to blackface it. The bias supply has been blackfaced. Only thing they failed to put in the coupeling caps between PI output and bias supply--no caps there! Also they attempted to install a post PI MV with a double 1M pot. On the board they installed some odd vaule components but most of the board is original. I think that can be corrected pretty easy. Also I did a PT test with 5U4 rectifier. Got 401VDC output from the rectifier without any connection to filter caps.

  This morning I did some major cleanup on board and chassis using Radio Shack Contact lube/cleaner using a lot of Q-tips to get inbetween components. Just takes a lot of elbow grease and TLC. Who ever worked on this amp let their hand rest on the board and components and everything was pressed down. I lifted the board components up off the board, lifted all the attached lead wires up, gave them proper spacing and it's looking a lot better. I now truley believe I can get this existing amp going and will proceed in that direction. I did some measurments on the Head cab, big OT, reverb tank and think I might be able to squeez the reverb tank in there too. The snakeskin tolex is starting to grow on me and matches the front black grill cloth pretty well. I just need to glue some of the tolex loose ends back down. I'm Excited!!!  :happy1:  Platefirfe
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 01:41:10 pm by Platefire »
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2013, 02:29:40 pm »
I enjoyed the restoration of the of my old Fi Sonic. It was a bit of an ugly duckling and I had thoughts of ditching the speaker cab cause it was hacked to bitz but I was glad I spent the time to patch it up. Even having to contend with a dead PT and reverb tank and then to reengineer them to fit into the originals position. Then to my surprise replacing the volume pots put the cream on the pie. Now its no ugly duckling and its great to own a piece of Australian music history. Good luck

Found your matching cab http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/brisbane-north-west/guitars-amps/guitar-speaker-cab-4x12-snakeskin/1033118701

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2013, 09:12:04 pm »
Hi Timbo

Happy new year Down Under. We have the outback Steak house here and we was over there the other day where I had got a gift cirtificate for there. Don't know how close it is to the way it's done Outback or not but I love their 14oz ribeye medium well.

On the Pro, as long as I've been in amp building I've been looking for an old Fender amp that needed help that I could pick up pretty cheap and restore. Believe me I've looked hi and lo and made offers and came up emty handed but this one kind of fell in my lap. It just wouldn't be right at this point to make it into something else without first trying to bring it back to it's original purpose. Someone had the vision of making it into a head, snakeing it  and blackfacing it, maybe I can complete the task. That cab you linked would be a perfect fit and match for the pro head but being the old skin flint I am wouldn't put out the bucks for it and wouldn't want to move it without a rodie:>) BTW-have you got a pix of your restoration your were refering to? Platefire
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2013, 09:48:04 pm »

Offline gtr2

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2013, 06:53:36 am »
Looks like a fun project, but you'll at least have to get matching boots when it's done ;)

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2013, 10:13:53 pm »
Timbo--looked at your restoration project--cool restoration. I've never seen old style point to point quiet like that. Everything was arranged rather neatly and didn't look like spaghetti.  Neatest p to p I recall from a factory job. I kind of scanned over all the post and may have missed something but did you get it sounding like you wanted?

Question: On the pro, I started rewiring the board and got it about 1/3 done. I trying to blackface it but never blackfaced anything before---so I assume you just change the circuit compltetly to blackface pro along with components and values?? The original blackface pro didn't have reverb, so I'm doing everything except the reverb circuit AB763 Pro and the reverb circuit is staying AA1069. Please advise if there is any "got ya's" I need to be aware of in doing this. Platefire
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 08:56:05 am by Platefire »
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2013, 12:01:48 pm »
Quote
Question: On the pro, I started rewiring the board and got it about 1/3 done. I trying to blackface it but never blackfaced anything before---so I assume you just change the circuit compltetly to blackface pro along with components and values?? The original blackface pro didn't have reverb, so I'm doing everything except the reverb circuit AB763 Pro and the reverb circuit is staying AA1069. Please advise if there is any "got ya's" I need to be aware of in doing this. Platefire

Blackfacing does not necessarily mean convert to AB763. I would not use that AB763 Pro schematic for this job. Doing so is a gotcha that will almost certainly cause you some grief.

Instead, use the Pro Reverb AA165, which is the correct blackface schematic. There's even a board available over at turretboards.com if you need one.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2013, 12:39:30 pm »
I think I speak for most following this thread that "Pro" means "Pro Reverb", meaning, as Sluckey said, just go for an AB165 Pro Reverb circuit. As for blackfacing it, the only diffs I see are the 2000 pf caps between grids and cathodes on the 6L6s (delete them), the "hum balance" type bias control on the later version, and the 47K/47K plate resistors after the 12AT7 PI instead of the 82K/100K plate R's on the earlier version. No real big deal.

That is...unless your amp is the AB668, in which Fender threw lots of add'l parts in an effort to do whatever they felt that they had to do. (Doug has the schem) In that circuit, you have a cathode bias structure (with the 6L6 cathodes sitting on top of resistors and a non-polarized cap connecting the cathodes...) plus the 2000 pfs, plus the 47K plate R's, plus changes in the power supply node resistors.

If the intention is to blackface the thing, then the good news is that the changes are subtractive, eg; you just snip the extra parts out. Look for those 6L6 cathode resistors for your indication.

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2013, 01:33:56 pm »
Thanks for coming back quickly, by the time I went to bed last night I had 1/2 the board done and it occurred to me that I haven't blackfaced an amp before and might should ask the question.

I just went over what I've done so far and best I can tell the only difference is on the AA165 circuit the network of pre Phase Inverter resistors and caps I have a 47R to ground like the AB763 and the AA165 has a 100R to ground.

The bias supply had already been converted to AA165 using/rewiring the original balance pot when I got it. There is no 2000pf caps to ground on 6L6 grids. It did have a 5/25 cap(like AA1069) on#8 pin cathode of tremolo tube and I changed it to a 25/25 to be AA165. The PI plate resistors are 82 & 100 like AA165.

So I don't know if changing the one 47R to 100R to ground on the PI input is worth the wear and tear or not, you tell me? Looks like overall I'm in good shape and have nothing I just installed to tear out save the 47R. Always Thankful for your help, Plate    
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 01:48:43 pm by Platefire »
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2013, 02:24:57 pm »
Quote
I just went over what I've done so far and best I can tell the only difference is on the AA165 circuit the network of pre Phase Inverter resistors and caps I have a 47R to ground like the AB763 and the AA165 has a 100R to ground.
Fender used a 47Ω resistor on the amps that only have a single 8Ω speaker (like the Deluxe Reverb or Vibroverb). All others, including your Pro Reverb with two speakers, use a 100Ω resistor. So, if you want the NFB level to be right according to Fender, replace that 47Ω resistor with a 100Ω resistor.
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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2013, 04:07:44 pm »
Thanks sluckey

This amp is in a head cab, no speakers. All my cabs I would be hooking this head to are single 8 Ohms speakers save the Boogie that is 4-10 but if I remember correctly, it also is wired for an 8 Ohm load. So I'm thinking that based on that I may be better off leaving it as is. Does that shed any different light on it, or what say you? Platefire
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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2013, 04:46:16 pm »
It's not a show stopper either way.
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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2013, 11:07:48 pm »
This amp is in a head cab, no speakers. All my cabs I would be hooking this head to are single 8 Ohms speakers ...

Understood, but the Pro Reverb had 2x 12" speakers wired for 4Ω.

That matters only in that a 4Ω load will reflect the "correct" primary impedance. Of course, if you're happy with the sound, it's fine to use 8Ω.

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2013, 01:18:27 am »
sluckey & HBP

The original OT on this head is missing and was gone when I got it. I did get a new replacement OT with this head that was never installed by the previous owner that is pictured. I asssume this is what they intended to install but never did. It a New Sensor Corperation Fender Type Replacement Output Transformer type #018343 Bassman Universal type OT.  Primary is 4K with 2/4/8 Ohm taps. I was planning on installing it and the speaker jack to the 8 Ohm tap. So I understand that the original OT was a 4 Ohm OT/speaker out for a 2-12 cab. So I'm providing the OT background info that you might not have known I was using a new OT with multi taps or am I still not comprehending something because I was thinking this arrangment was kosher for matching my 8 Ohm speaker loads? I do want to achive the "correct" impedance for my existing speakers. Platefire
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 12:16:49 pm by Platefire »
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Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2013, 09:21:08 pm »
   Got to thinking I better locate the position that the new OT will need to be to check bolt hole locations in relation to the board. I do not want to peel that old board up to drill holes and insert bolts, the board would be best left alone as much as possible. Well it turns out the bolt holes will fall on either side of the board---ye haw!!   :thumbsup: The existing OT wiring holes in chassis will serve as access for the OT primary and secondary leads but will have to remove the existing plastic inserts and drill them out and put in grommits to fit the new holes. The old holes are just too tight to fit the leads through for the new wiring. But I'm thankful its all doable without rocking the boat too much. Platefire
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 09:31:51 pm by Platefire »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(Question on Blackfacing)
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2013, 08:32:05 am »
sluckey & HBP ...

Gotcha. Then you've got it figured right already.  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Platefire

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2013, 10:16:41 am »
sluckey and HBP

Confession time.  :dontknow:    Well for some reason primary impedance and impedance/Ohms has always been hard for me to comprehind and when it is discussed I don't have any visual image or understanding of whats going on to grab hold onto. I know for an amp to work at peak performance it needs to be properly matched with a proper OT and a speaker to match the OT. I have studied it before to try to bring away something that will leave a lasting impression or understanding but so far I still draw a blank when I think about it---that's why I get concerned when somebody indicates that things might not be matched up properly--my pea brain hasn't got nothing to grab onto other than trying to match up proper components. So I always appreciate you guys help because my understanding alone comes up way short! Thanks, Plate 
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2013, 11:10:59 am »
Tubes operate with high voltages and low current. Their plate resistance is typically high. A typical power tube may have a plate impedance of 5000Ω.

A loudspeaker is a low voltage, high current device. Typical impedance may be 8Ω.

You cannot simply connect a low impedance speaker to a high impedance tube plate. You must use some device that will match the high impedance tube to the low impedance speaker. This device must also isolate the speaker from the high dc voltage present on the tube. And the more accurately the plate high impedance is matched to the speaker low impedance, the more power can be transferred. The OT accomplishes all these tasks very well. In the example above, an OT would need to match a primary impedance of 5000Ω to a secondary impedance of 8Ω to allow maximum power transfer.

Slight to moderate mismatches (say 6000Ω to 8Ω, or 5000Ω to 4Ω) can usually be tolerated, but you will not be able to transfer maximum power from the tube to the speaker. Gross mismatches should be avoided.

The physical size of an OT is largely determined by the amount of power you want to transfer. More power means bigger iron.

If you are auto mechanics savvy, you may want to kinda think of the OT as the transmission sitting between the engine and drive train. Probably a poor analogy, but I ain't into automobiles or mechanics.   :icon_biggrin:

To sum this up in one sentence, I'd say, "The OT is an impedance matching device between the high impedance plate and the low impedance speaker."

Now, just how far down this rabbit hole do you want to go Neo? 
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2013, 12:45:29 pm »
Well I surely need to understand it better than I do, so when I run into these issues regarding power amp output being converted to efficent speaker operation, I will have an idea of how to proceed and get the most efficient matching of components

Just to bring it to the simplest terms, I really don't know what impedance means. I do know to imped is to slow down or hold back which sounds a lot like resistance--so I looked it up and found this definition:

Electrical impedance is the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied.

In quantitative terms, it is the complex ratio of the voltage to the current in an alternating current (AC) circuit. Impedance extends the concept of resistance to AC circuits, and possesses both magnitude and phase, unlike resistance, which has only magnitude. When a circuit is driven with direct current (DC), there is no distinction between impedance and resistance; the latter can be thought of as impedance with zero phase angle.

  


So according to that, for DC current there is no differance in impediance and resistance. So I guess my first question would be, why do we call it impedance instead of resistance? Plate
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 12:52:11 pm by Platefire »
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Offline eleventeen

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2013, 02:54:33 pm »
"So I guess my first question would be, why do we call it impedance instead of resistance?"

Because they are certainly different, and the desire is there to have different terms to accurately describe the situation. A capacitor is not a dead short to AC, it has a frequency-dependent and ufd-dependent resistance to AC. If there were no difference, we could use cheap .01 ufds as filter caps in a power supply. Likewise, we would gain little inserting a choke into a power supply if it did not act to oppose changes both in voltage and current.

We use impedance because inductors and capacitors have a quality differing from pure DC resistance, known as reactance.

Part of what makes this so is the phenomenon of current vs voltage phase angles. In an inductive (L) load, voltage leads current. In a capacitive (C) load, current leads voltage. Were you to combine both L and C in a circuit, you'd have to perform some sort of vector addition to get the equivalent resistance.



One could study this at great length, it gets wooly. Having some idea of what's going on is beneficial but not required, certainly not to NASA-levels. What's good to know is that maximum power is transferred when sources are impedance-matched and roughly level-matched to loads. I'm not going to pretend my understanding of it is anything great. But you already know your guitar cannot directly drive a speaker; a low-Z microphone usually does not drive the line level of an amplifier very well, and vice versa.

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2013, 04:04:24 pm »
Thanks, but you got a little too deep right off the bat. You know it would be cool with me if sluckey started another thread regarding impedance as related to guitar amps. I would be right there to learn and ask questions. This is just a suggestion and if there is a interest there by others? If so I would recomend it start simple for us hard heads  :laugh: Plate
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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Head in Pieces(now pictures)
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2013, 04:54:27 pm »
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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2013, 07:04:26 pm »
So according to that, for DC current there is no differance in impediance and resistance. So I guess my first question would be, why do we call it impedance instead of resistance?

Let's get easy.

There are 3 main passive components: resistor, capacitor, inductor.

A resistor presents resistance to the flow of current. An inductor looks like a very low resistance to d.c. (it's a coil of wire, right?), but has a big reactance with a high frequency. A cap looks like an open circuit to d.c. (2 plates separated by an insulator), but a.c. appears to pass through it (as in a coupling cap), so it has a small reactance at high frequency.

Reactance is the a.c. equivalent to resistance, and its value depends on the applied frequency.

Impedance is the sum of resistance and reactance in a circuit, or all the opposition to alternating current.

A transformer blocks d.c. on the primary from appearing at the secondary, but passes a.c. signal, like a cap. Unlike a cap, it can step up or down voltage. Power in equals power out, so if voltage is stepped up, curent is stepped down by the same ratio.

If ohm's law (in one form) is Resistance = Voltage / Current, then for a.c. it is Impedance = Voltage / Current. Stepping up voltage and stepping down current is also stepping up Impedance. The OT takes a high voltage, low current at the primary and steps voltage down and current up at the secondary; so it has stepped impedance down, and matched a, say, 4kΩ primary to an 8Ω speaker.

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2013, 10:47:29 pm »
Thanks HBP

I have been studying the info you provided. Forgive my dumb statements or questions:

is Impedance related to ac only as in the grid the guitar signal travels on?

Also is an inducter the hookup wire we use in an amp? You said "coil of wire"--did you mean wire wound on a coil like a transformer or was you just talking about a length of hookup wire?  The longer the wire, the more resistance?

So I really didn't know the transformer blocked dc and passed ac like a capacitor but that should be obvious because the OT has high voltage dc on the primary and ac only on the secondary.

 Ok I'm thinking out loud---in the OT primary you have high voltage dc and ac grid signal. So the high voltage dc is blocked at the OT primary and the ac grid voltage is stepped down and the current is increased by the same equal ratio the ac is steppped down on the secondary? so I'm thinking by tapping this step down process at different points is where we get the multi Ohm taps?

Also I'm assuming from what you said lowering voltage and increasing current lowers impedance and vice versa higher voltage and lower current raises impedance???

Also I'm wondering at what level or threshold does a ac signal go from being high impedance to low impedance or vice versa?

OK-you can straighen me out now  :dontknow:  Thanks, Plate  
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 10:53:45 pm by Platefire »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2014, 12:02:04 am »
is Impedance related to ac only ...

Resistance is the opposition to the flow of current. Impedance is the opposition to the flow of alternating current, and includes resistance as well as the frequency-dependent element of reactance.

Said another way: d.c. is like a frequency of 0. Reactance has a formula with frequency of the a.c. applied, so if the frequency is 0, the reactance is also 0. If impedance is resistance and reactance, but reactance is zero because we have d.c., then the only thing left is resistance.

See how resistance matters to both a.c. and d.c., but impedance includes an extra element that only applies to a.c.?

Also is an inducter ... You said "coil of wire"--did you mean wire wound on a coil like a transformer ...

Yes.

Inductor = choke = transformer winding. It is very literally a wire wound into a coil, because the field set up around the wire strengthens and increases the inductance of the resulting coil. Below radio frequency, inductors/chokes/transformers will be wound in coils, and will generally have a metal core of some kind to increase inductance.

You know already that transformer windings have some resistance, but the 4kΩ primary of your OT doesn't measure as 4000Ω when you attach your meter to measure resistance. Also, a choke may look like thousands of ohms at 120Hz, but have a d.c. resistance of only tens of ohms. You should also notice that "d.c. resistance" is redundant, but has become common because there are other places where we might wrongly say "resistance" when talking about something that only exists with an a.c. signal.

So I really didn't know the transformer blocked dc and passed ac like a capacitor but that should be obvious because the OT has high voltage dc on the primary and ac only on the secondary.

Yes sir!

It's one of the important functions of a transformer that we often don't think much about: keeping d.c. levels separated while coupling a.c.

You could say a cap and a transformer (or more broadly, a choke) do the same types of things, but come at the problem from opposite directions. Which is a better choice in a circuit pretty much comes down to the frequency being handled and cost considerations.

Ok I'm thinking out loud---in the OT primary you have high voltage dc and ac [plate] signal. So the high voltage dc is blocked at the OT primary and the ac [plate] voltage is stepped down and the current is increased by the same equal ratio the ac is steppped down on the secondary? so I'm thinking by tapping this step down process at different points is where we get the multi Ohm taps?

Yes sir!

Power is the same at all the taps. The 16Ω tap has twice the voltage and half the current (for the same power) as the 4Ω tap.
    Example:
    -  Say there is 16vac at the 16Ω tap. 16v / 16Ω = 1A. 16v * 1A = 16w
    -  The 4Ω tap has half the voltage as the 16Ω tap, or 8vac. 8v / 4Ω = 2A. 8v * 2A = 16w
    -  See how the voltage and current changed for each of the taps, but power stayed the same?

Also I'm assuming from what you said lowering voltage and increasing current lowers impedance and vice versa higher voltage and lower current raises impedance???

Yes sir!

If you firmly know ohm's law and the equation for power, then pick a number for power (say, 10w). Pick a number to be your voltage (let's try 500v), and calculate your current for that power (10w / 500v = 20mA). Use ohm's law to see what resistance allows the current to flow when the voltage is applied (500v / 0.02A = 25kΩ). Now keep the same power and pick a radically different voltage, and repeat (25v; 10w / 25v = 400mA; 25v / 0.4A = 62.5Ω).

You can see whichever way voltage goes, so does impedance. You might say if the impedance gets bigger, it takes more voltage to push a given amount of power through the impedance.

Also I'm wondering at what level or threshold does a ac signal go from being high impedance to low impedance or vice versa?

You know Einstein? It's all relative...

For a preamp tube plate, 600Ω looks like a low impedance. For an 8Ω speaker, 600Ω looks like a high impedance.

"Low" or "high" only makes sense when you talk about it in reference to some other impedance or circuit point/element.

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2014, 11:25:01 am »
Your last statments was a little more complex, so I might have to take one at a time so I won't get to scattered  :w2:

Ok--Impedance includes resistance, reactance and frequency. So you are saying dc always has a freqency of 0 and with 0 freqency there is 0 reactance. So in a tube amp we have locations where it is strickly dc, other locations strickly ac and then others with ac & dc combined. So reactance only applies where dc and ac are in the same location? So in a dc only world impedance would only include the resistance element but when ac is included the freqency & reaction would be the reaction of ac to the dc element in the neighborhood.

I keep thinking frequency of what. If frequency is something repeditive at a repeating rate---are we talking voltage, current or something else?

I'm only repeating what I think you said so you can tell me where my comprehinsion is wrong. Thanks, Plate
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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2014, 11:36:11 am »
So in a tube amp we have locations where it is strickly dc, other locations strickly ac and then others with ac & dc combined...

There is AC (which is where current 'flows' back and forth around a reference point), then there is DC (where current flows in one direction only), then there is varying DC (where more or less current flows in one direction only)

Resistance inhibits the flow of current. Impedance inhibits the amplitude of AC
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 11:47:31 am by tubeswell »
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Offline eleventeen

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Re: Picked up a Silverface Fender Pro Reverb Head in Pieces
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2014, 12:32:18 pm »
You got some nice info from HBP, as usual!

"Ok--Impedance includes resistance, reactance and frequency."

Nit: No, just the first two, resistance & reactance. Reactance is a frequency-dependent form of [resistance] the opposition to both voltage and current, which occurs in capacitors and inductors in AC circuits. (C's and L's) Since I use the word "frequency" in that definition, the implication is that we are talking about an AC circuit. "Frequency" will be a  mathematical factor in whatever equation we use to figure reactance, so, in a DC circuit, where frequency is zero, those terms will algebraically drop out and reactance will be zero. Thus we'll be left with just DC resistance, which in a DC circuit, is identical to DC impedance. This goes back to your first question: We use the different terms (impedance and resistance) to imply whether we're talking about an AC or a DC circuit. We rarely use the term "DC impedance". Once we have figured out the reactance of a capacitor, for example, we can use that reactance (measured in ohms) exactly as we would in Ohm's law...though not for power calcs. THAT is the value.

"So you are saying dc always has a frequency of 0 and with 0 frequency there is 0 reactance." Right!

"So in a tube amp we have locations where it is strickly dc, other locations strickly ac and then others with ac & dc combined. So reactance only applies where dc and ac are in the same location? So in a dc only world impedance would only include the resistance element [right!] but when ac is included the freqency & [reaction] (think you mean "reactance") would be the reaction of ac to the dc element in the neighborhood.

Uhh, no. The capacitors and inductors in an AC circuit have reactance. It is a quality or characteristic that is dependent upon (among other things) freq and (as one would assume)  the number of ufds or henrys in the cap or coil.

It's not whether AC and DC are combined (as they often are) We almost always have to separate the AC from the DC part to analyze what's going on. The AC in a circuit "sees" caps and coils and finds that those components have this reactance effect upon both the AC current and the AC voltage. If said AC is combined with DC, those components do not affect the DC part.

"I keep thinking frequency of what. If frequency is something repeditive at a repeating rate---are we talking voltage, current or something else? "

Voltage and current.

What are some clues that DC resistance and (AC) impedance are different things?

You measure the DC resistance of a 6.3 volt filament winding on a power transformer and come up with .2 ohms. You take 6.3 volts and divide by .2 and per Ohm's law come to the conclusion that if 6.3 volts were flowing in that secondary winding across .2 ohms, you would expect 31.5 amps to flow. Nope.

You go to a tube spec sheet, say a 6AU6, for a high frequency design you are working on. You find a section called "interelectrode capacitance" which talks about the teensy capacitors that in effect exist between the grid and the cathode and the plate and the grid. Because capacitors are what, 2 separated pieces of metal, right? So the electrodes inside a tube have itty-bitty caps of 1-2-3-4 uuf between them, because they are separated pieces of metal. We don't care much with audio, but at high freqs, these are short circuits to AC...so these tubes can't be used above certain frequencies.

 


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