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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: preamp gain ?  (Read 5318 times)

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Offline shooter

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preamp gain ?
« on: August 25, 2015, 07:45:36 pm »
I stole this schematic straight from RCA, they called it an audio control unit.  I want to drive a SE UL configured KT88 that wants about 16.5Vac as grid drive.
I’m not seeing anything close coming outta this as is. 
If I change V2-b to a gain stage do I get close with the AU, or am I *stuck* moving to a higher gain AT-AX?   If so, can I leave V2-b a CF?

Thanks for the help.
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2015, 10:22:59 pm »
This circuit might appear in other, earlier tube manuals but someone has put it on the internet as coming from RC-23. You should notice from leafing through the Circuits section of an RCA tube manual that they often publish "circuit chunks" which aren't complete systems on their own. Like a Phono Preamp, but a different circuit is needed to incorporate tone controls, and yet a different circuit needed for a power output stage with a driver and phase inverter.

Sometimes RCA tells you what output you get for a specified input, but they didn't do that here. So we have to look at the circuit.

1st stage is a cathode follower so you'll get no voltage gain there (actually a slight loss). Last stage is also a cathode follower, so again no gain there. In between, you have a gain stage, tone controls, gain stage and volume control.

RCA doesn't give pin voltages, but quick plotting of Rk and Rl on a set of 12AU7 curves suggests low-current operation of the 2nd stage (~2mA) and a data sheet indicates internal plate resistance will be ~12.5kΩ at that current for ~70v plate-to-cathode (supply voltage 270v - 200v across 100kΩ plate load). The tone controls after the 2nd stage look more or less like a 298kΩ load to the 2nd stage, in parallel with the 100kΩ plate load (~75kΩ total). Data sheet curves on page 3 suggests Amplification Factor may only be 16.5-17 for this relatively low-voltage, low-current condition. These numbers don't account for voltage drop in the power supply due to the 1st, 3rd or 4th stage plate currents (sorry, but this process is recursive enough already).

Gain for 2nd stage will be about μ*[Rl/(Rl+ra)] = 16.5*[75kΩ*/(75kΩ+12.5kΩ)] = ~14. Cathode resistor is fully bypassed, so this estimated gain is not reduced by local negative feedback.

Source impedance to tone circuit is around 11kΩ considering 12.5k internal plate resistance in parallel with 100kΩ (maybe a tiny bit higher because I haven't factored in the effect of the cathode resistor). Applying circuit values and calculated source impedance to the James model in the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator, mid-band loss at 1kHz is -19dB with controls set mid-way, though bass has a significant emphasis. Regardless, that mid-band loss should be the basis for calculation.

-19dB converts to about a 1:9 loss. So 2nd stage gain is ~14, loss of ~1/9th in the tone circuit (midband, controls set halfway), overall gain is only 5. Really, the 2nd stage is only keeping gain near unity or a mild loss after you consider sweeping the controls below their mid-point.

3rd stage plate current appears similar to what I (incompletely) calculated for the 2nd stage, so Amplification Factor and internal plate resistance should be similar. Plate load is 100kΩ, in parallel with a 100kΩ Volume control for 50kΩ overall load.

Gain for 2nd stage will be about μ*[Rl/(Rl+ra)] = 16.5*[50kΩ*/(50kΩ+12.5kΩ)] = ~13. Cathode resistor is fully bypassed, so this estimated gain is not reduced by local negative feedback.

But an audio taper pot set mid-way is a 1/10th loss, so the 3rd gain stage leaves overall signal level just above unity here as well.

Even if you max'd the Volume control, you should only count on an overall gain of 5 * 13 = 65. Not accounting for cathode follower losses, you'd need 16.5vac / 65 = 250mV of input signal. That might be a bit much, and the overall amp is likely to never distort with a guitar input (and may not be fully driven, either).
I won't re-calculate yet for dropping 12AX7's in the circuit; however, you should know that while the amplification factor is a lot higher, the loads in the circuit (tone controls, volume control) are small enough to seriously drag-down a 12AX7's gain, giving much less amplification than what you'd expect.

Overall, this looks a lot like the typical RCA pattern I noted at the start: this is a circuit to add tone controls and a volume control to an existing complete preamp/power amp while adding minimal additional signal loss. If you want to swipe this circuit, you'll need additional preamplification and possibly a driver circuit for your output tube after the final cathode follower.

Offline PRR

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2015, 11:28:50 pm »
Much hastier analysis:

Cathode follower has gain of 1. 12AU7 with bypassed cathode has gain of 15. James tone-stack has gain of 20:1.

So (15*15)/(20) is gain of 11.

I have NO idea why there is a cathode follower on front. The second stage could give an input impedance as high as anybody would need. (Well, OK, I know it id because RCA *sold* tubes so they published extravagant plans that RCA would never use in complete systems.)

> I want to drive ... about 16.5Vac

We often design guitar amps to overload with 20mV (0.020V) input when dimed.

16.5V/20mV is gain of 1,000 (really 825). "Gain of 11" is way shy of that.

We also see that the input is boosted up 15X, then cut down 20X. The level at the output of the tone network is *less* than what you put in. This is fine for "high level" sources like tuner or tape and phono with their preamps. It is NOT good for weak signals.

You need another gain of 75-100 in front.

> "audio control unit"

A Hi-Fi system is 3-part like Gaul. Preamp brings up (maybe EQs) weak phono or tape signals (tuners don't need added preamp). Control box is selector, volume knob, maybe tone, and gain of 10. Power Amp is gain of 20 and 4/8/16 Ohm output.

What you got is just the middle part, and your Power Amp is gain of ~~~1 not gain of 20.

In RCA's scheme, what you need is a "guitar preamp", essentially what they may call a "microphone preamp". There's one in RC-xx. However unlike a traditional (dynamic, far-micced) microphone a guitar can have very large output, over 0.5V (if you mix your vitamins with pep-pills). 0.5V into gain of 100 is a big 50V signal which will typically overload any non-insane tube stage.

You do not need the first and last cathode followers. Re-rig the two gain stages and tone on one socket. Use the other socket for a 2-stage 2-triode amp with a gain control between 1st and 2nd stage. Use a 12AU7 here and you get gain up to 225, which is "too much", but may be OK, or leave out one or both cathode caps for gain of 115 or 60.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:31:12 pm by PRR »

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2015, 01:21:19 am »
steal ampeg b15n preamp plan. i don't think you'll be disappointed.


--pete

Offline shooter

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2015, 09:42:46 am »
Thanks guys for the deep stuff, HBP, that's the schematic I stole, just re-drew it with values and more *normal* flow for me.
PRR, I was thinking the 1st CF would be a keeper for impedance matching and signal conditioning

My *goal* here is a 2nd mono block that does well with multi-inputs - guitar included, also trying to keep close to original designs that seem cool to me. 

Quote
You need another gain of 75-100 in front.
If I want to stay" true" to this circuit, would it matter where I make up the gain? 

again, thanks for your efforts
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Offline tubeswell

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2015, 01:51:21 pm »
I'd start by changing V1 from a 12AU7 to a 12AX7 and put the inverting stage in front. If you want to keep a CF, then start with copying the 5F6A DC coupled pair.


Then you could swap the tail end 12AU7 for a 12DW7, with the AX triode as the tone stack recovery stage, and use the 'AU' triode either as a CF (using AC coupling with a boot strapped grid), or turn the AU triode into another  inverting stage to get more current to drive the KT tube
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline PRR

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2015, 03:12:38 pm »
> to stay "true" to this circuit

Why??

It's like when the plywood industry flooded stores and magazines with DIY plans for bookshelves, end-tables, etc. Few of the plans had any merit except selling more plywood.

Agree: steal a known-good plan like B-15. If you are talking about taking hi-fi sources into it, bypass the first preamp. The B-15 power section is push-pull, you are SE, you want a dedicated tube to bring ~~1V signals up to 16V to smack your KT88.


Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2015, 04:19:39 pm »
Also note that according to the Tone Stack Calculator, the tone controls are marked backwards on RCA's plan: varying the "Treble" control actually changes bass and vice-versa.


The names would be correct if the tone circuit was inside a feedback loop, a la Baxandall; maybe dropping that loop was an engineering change along the way and no one remembered to switch the control designations.

Offline shooter

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2015, 09:33:38 pm »
Quote
Why??
That's a hard question to *quantify*  it's sorta like taking a '59 Plymouth with a push button shifter, gutting it and putting in 4 speed on the floor, might improve performance, might even look cooler, but somehow it just seems wrong.  Adding a driver stage to kick the KT is acceptable.  I will look at the B15 schematic though.  when I saw this schematic, it just stood out somehow, why, can't tell ya.  Tube audio is still *new* to me so maybe that's it?

Quote
tone controls are marked backwards
Thanks HBP, I will note that in the schematic
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Offline PRR

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2015, 11:33:46 pm »
> correct if the tone circuit was inside a feedback loop, a la Baxandall

Would still be wrong.

I grew up in a 1957 Plymouth (still have a scar) and this plan is no 1957/59 Plymouth. It is filler for the back of the tube-book.

RCA lost their way in Hi-Fi long before RC-23. They had some speakers and microphones which were pretty good for 1947-1950, because Olsen hired smart kids to do his work. They had some theater amps which served very well, but were NOT based on back-of-book plans.

Offline PRR

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2015, 12:33:31 am »
OK, same bottles and sockets, but put to use correctly for guitar +and+ hi-fi.

I expect it will be very mellow and bland. A 1952 Concord, not a rampaging 1959 Fury.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 09:20:27 pm by PRR »

Offline shooter

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2015, 09:12:15 am »
Quote
this plan is no 1957/59 Plymouth

I learned to drive in the 59, traded my Fuji 10speed for my 1st Plymouth. 
Thanks for chain-sawing the circuit, that is a WAY better use of the tubes, and I will bow to the guys here that know good and bad designs from days gone by.   I have found as a non-musician, my "clean-sterile" amps make players smile when they get all those pedals out and find tones and sounds and such they "never got from other amps"

Thanks again for the time.  I have a B&K model 161 on the bench for resurrection, so I can slo- play this amp into reality.

dave
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Offline shooter

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 08:33:41 pm »
I'll take a concord :icon_biggrin:

I attached the schematic from my last build which looks like the same TS.   I'm using it as I type and the Bass is Bass and treble, treble, am I missing the obvious somewhere? :dontknow:
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Offline PRR

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2015, 10:09:43 pm »
The bass pot has caps across it.

The treble pot has caps on the ends of it.

Offline shooter

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2015, 09:28:25 am »
Thanks, I finally "seen" my error, every time I looked after it was pointed out, I just saw bass circuit as bass circuit, treble as treble, missing completely the obvious incorrect labels.  :think1:
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Offline PRR

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Re: preamp gain ?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2015, 12:53:39 am »
> "seen" my error

The error is on _RCA'S_ drawing, not yours.

You are smarter than the old guys (at least the low-pay guys who filled the back of the tube manual).

 


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