Brown Sound

[TIMBO]

Hi guys, Got to hear an amp built by a local guy that was quoted as "brown sound"
Searched it here, as I thought we touched no it some time ago.

[Ed_Chambley]

Timbo, not sure what you are asking, but the "Brown Sound" has been used and overused.  There was also a guy that ended not filling a lot of orders for Brown Sound kits.


To me, Early Van-Halen from Van Halen 1 is what is commonly referred to as the Brown Sound.  It is a super lead 100 with every control dimed.  There were loads of rumors surrounding Eddies amps and it is true he did mod a lot of things, but a good hot pup with no load running into a super lead with Sylvania EL34's and the Small Drake OT.  The smaller OT, (there were 2 different ones Marshall used) would saturate more easily.


Most of the other amps like the Friedman have clipping diodes so you do not have to simply crank, but the true brown sound as I understand it is the 4, EL34's pushed to the max.  It is said the Sylvania tubes will take more abuse, but I think they were simply more available at the time.

[Willabe]

It is said the Sylvania tubes will take more abuse, but I think they were simply more available at the time.

The EL34's that EV favored were a USA made version, 6CA7, that was a beam power tube and not a true 3 grid pentode.

They sound different.   

[TIMBO]

So, maybe not brown sound as such, just brown sound sounding.
He did say that he was running the power tubes (EL34s) at 20w with 250v on the plates.

[Paul1453]

Seems like a low B+ for EL34s unless his is SE Class A.

The data sheet shows PP data for 375 - 450 volts B+. 

[TIMBO]

I'm pretty sure PP.

[SILVERGUN]

Here some reading that seems pretty accurate:
http://www.legendarytones.com/edward-van-halen-brown-sound/

You can run an EL34 at whatever B+ you want..imagine an amp with a 480V B+ with a VVR control set to 50% and you've now got 240V B+ and a greatly reduced output...actual wattage out is insignificant...this is about tone and feel.

VH dropped the input voltage into the 90's which kept enough filament voltage to keep 'em lit, but lowered the B+ enough to get the output tubes distorting earlier..
That article exposes the other aspects of the 'brown sound' which includes completely knocking down the output with a dummy load so that the full amp was used before the effects and then "re-amped" to get volume back up to appropriate stage level.
Go back and listen to VH1 and this will explain how he was able to get that liquid response but still sound different than guys who were just stepping on dist. pedals to get a similar effect.

If you've never tried it, it's an interesting way to capture a magical feel from the instrument without blowing the windows out. VVR is the modernized/engineered way of accomplishing a similar feat....it allows you to adjust the B+ completely independent of the filaments.

[Paul1453]

I like running lower voltages.

Others like to hammer their tubes with every volt they can get.

Knowing how the voltages interact with all parts of the amp to create just the sound you want is bordering on genius.  IMO

[Platefire]

A Hippy like drummer named Cullpeper I played with in the 70's always told me my sound was "Sleazy". I never took that as a compliment for sure but he always acted like he liked my playing  As you know the "Sleaz" sound never caught on but the "Brown" sound is doing petty good!

[darryl]

I suppose I should put my hand up and accept some responsibility for this discussion. It was one of my amplifiers which Tim heard at a "gearfest" last weekend, where the term "brown sound" was bandied about. The design objective with that amplifier was not to specifically research brown sound, but more generally to investigate the use of lower B+ voltage in push-pull EL34 amps. Commentators on several forums have declared that EL34's do not perform correctly unless their plate voltage is somewhere North of 400 volts. I have never subscribed to this view, but felt that a real-world test was necessary to prove or disprove my opinion.

The original "brown sound" associated with Eddie Van Halen has been discussed at length on guitar related forums, with many different hypotheses presented to explain just how Mr Van Halen achieved it. It is generally agreed that one of his techniques was to use a Variac with his Marshall amplifiers, reducing the line voltage entering the amp. This had the effect of lowering all the voltages in the amplifier to achieve the desired tone. I would postulate that with a guitarist of Mr Van Halen's ability, the final result was 10% equipment and 90% EVH, but I have no way of testing this. 

Back to the amplifier. The overall circuit topology was very similar to a Marshall 2204, with minor tweaks in the preamp stages, but significant differences in the power supply. As with many of my amplifiers, two relatively low voltage transformers were used to supply heater current and B+ voltage. Both transformers were toroids, one having 18+18 volt secondaries, the other having 12+12 volt secondaries. One of the 12 volt secondaries powered the valve heaters, whilst the other was connected in series with the two 18 volt secondaries to produce a total of 48 volts AC. This was applied to a voltage quadrupler to provide a nominal 268 volt B+ The actual zero-signal B+ was 260VDC, and the amplifier's measured output power was 18 watts.







The amplifier is named Eris, after a dwarf planet in the outer reaches of our solar system. The dwarf planet is in turn named after Eris, the Greek goddess of discord, making this a remarkably appropriate name for a guitar amplifier.   

The Eris 18 amplifier had its first live trial at last weekend's gearfest, but it should undergo further evaluation in coming weeks.

[VMS]

Related to my bias question thread:

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=20324.0

May I ask how do you set the bias in your Eris amp?

[TIMBO]

Thanks Darryl, The amp sounded awesome.

[HotBluePlates]

I suppose I should put my hand up and accept some responsibility for this discussion. It was one of my amplifiers ...

It would be very instructive if you could explain (perhaps in a different thread) how you develop the layout for your amps.

After staring at the photo for this amp, I think I see some of the things you sought to do, but I'm sure I'm overlooking things. I just went through the exercise of laying out an amp from scratch and know there are a lot of competing tradeoffs, but it seems a handful of practical considerations drives choices of either layout employed or parts used.

[sluckey]

I see a lot of similarities with the old Sunns..

[shooter]

I see a lot of similarities with the old Sunns..

You didn't flip it over

I'm also interested in your layout *technique*   I think I want my next build P2P.  and that is aesthetic, clean, and I'll take Timbo's comments on sound to the bank!

[Platefire]

darryl

I don't guess it was you playing the amp at the "gearfest"? It would be interesting to hear a report from the players perspective of how it performed. Timbo already said it sounded Awesome from a listening perspective, so that part is covered. Platefire 

[TIMBO]

Hi plate this is where it all went down, it was a great day.
http://www.guitargear.net.au/discussion/index.php?topic=46719.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M8hRDsMBYr4

[darryl]

A build description of the Eris 18 amplifier has commenced here: http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=20374.0

Some replies to the upthread comments:

VMS: I will discuss the Eris biasing in the construction thread.

sluckey: The chassis layout of that Sunn amp is broadly similar to the layout I use for almost all my amplifiers. I've never worked on a Sunn amplifier - very few of them ever reached Australia, so I'll deny plagiarism and claim that great minds think alike. 

Platefire: I don't play guitar at all, just build guitar amplifiers. I do have a number of guitarist friends whose opinions I value when seeking comments on new designs.

TIMBO:  The link in your thread won't work for non-members of the AGGH forum. The YouTube clip does work though. The amplifier being demonstrated in that clip is not the Eris 18, but the Drifter 22. The clip of the Eris demonstration was lost somehow in the outer reaches of the Solar System before it could be uploaded.

[Platefire]

Thanks, I'm the midst of a 1987 build and and I found this amp interesting being it's based on a 2204 with lower voltage transformers. Guess what's in the back of my mind, is there a way to build a switchable stock to Brown Sound? Platefire

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks, I'm the midst of a 1987 build and and I found this amp interesting being it's based on a 2204 with lower voltage transformers. Guess what's in the back of my mind, is there a way to build a switchable stock to Brown Sound? Platefire

Maybe build the head stock and then add a soup'd up "Vintage Voltage" adapter that you can switch in.
The transformer we have used in the past were these 12.6VAC models from Radio Shack because of the 3 amp rating and ease of availability. (I used to be able to walk into RS and walk out with one for $12). These would knock input down from 125'ish to 112'ish, just to cool things off and simulate the good old days.
 
To get down into the 90's (input voltage) you'll want a higher voltage model and it should be possible to find a decent 24 or 28VAC xfmr without breaking the bank that will fit the bill..and get you close enough for RnR
http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/vintvolt/vintvolt.htm
 
Just remember that the entire current draw of the amp will flow through this xfmr, so it is important to pay attention to the rated capacity.
A good way to size it up would be based on the fuse size in your specific model. 4 amp mains fuse = minimum 4 amp bucking transformer current rating.....right guys?
Here's a candidate for tryin: (built in overkill)
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hammond-Manufacturing/185G28/?qs=atHKiefXm7R%2FKXeq2iimuQ%3D%3D

[Platefire]

Thanks Silvergun

That gave me something to chew on. I can see why they just used the lower voltage transformers on the Eris to  jump way down to EVH's variac settings. That way you could keep the bias and  heater voltage consistent. Platefire 

[Ed_Chambley]

In an interview EVH said he began using a Variac with a Tweed Fender Bassman in the first small clubs they played.  He said his tone was simply power tube distortion and he used Fender Tweed Bassmans because they were cheaper at the time.  The volume was too much as the young guys were accustomed to playing yard parties which seemed to be popular in the mid 70's. 


Maybe JoeJoe will see this as I know he was around the guys in the early years of Van-Halen.


Ben Fargen has taken the idea of the low volt EL34 to extremes and back.  At first offering a Ole 800 at 50 watts and 25 watts.  The 25 watt version has lower plate voltages, much lower and has an OT with a 4.6K Primary.


I considered the same thing and built an amp that to me is not usable since I play a lot of clean, but I simply built a Chieftain Clone which is a cathode bias EL34 and I used 320 Plate voltage and a JTM45 OT from Mojo.  The tone is there and ringing harmonics and has a very "Brown Sound".  Still it is missing the girth that 4 tubes give, but does have enough power to move speakers quite well.


I currently have been using the Samamp idea.  He has a patent on it, but simply put you use light bulbs and switching to add more draw from the power tubes when lighting additional light bulbs. Similar to power scaling, but creates more sag and is sort of like having a brown sound if the preamp has the correct values.


Eddies early tone sounds like it sags quite a bit to my ears when he plays heavy chords, but his use of the very thin picks and that fast rocking picking motion even when slowed it sounds like he is noticably ahead of the amp.

[Platefire]

So Ed, your Chieftain Clone didn't have any clean headroom? I have always thought of vintage tweed amps as having the Brown Sound because of their low plate voltage and no NFB----is that a stretch as compared to the variac that lowers everything including heater voltage and bias voltage? Platefire 

[Raybob]

Maybe I been a Leo F fan for too long, but when I think of "brown" I think of the PI section of the 'brown/blonde' amps of '60-'63 Fenders, prior to the blackface amps.  I've built a few brown Fenders and all I've built use the 12AX7 instead of AT7, with different value resistors for the PI section, compared to the usual Blackface, along with different power rail resistors.  The general difference I hear between blackface and brown, I believe comes from not the overdrive of the power tubes but the transition from clean to overdrive.  With blackface, pick soft it's clean, pick hard it's dirt.  Same with a brown circuit, but that transition period between clean and dirt seems to be wider period on brown, giving more variations of tone possible with dynamic attack. 

Just re-read what I wrote.. hard to state in words... hope someone can understand and elaborate.

[Ed_Chambley]

So Ed, your Chieftain Clone didn't have any clean headroom? I have always thought of vintage tweed amps as having the Brown Sound because of their low plate voltage and no NFB----is that a stretch as compared to the variac that lowers everything including heater voltage and bias voltage? Platefire

I wouldn't call it a stretch.  I have used a variac often.  I have a handful of filament transformers and when I am making a new amp I have a PT arranged to plug in for B+ only.  Then I can adjust the voltage wherever I like and still have proper filament voltage.


With the Chieftain build I really need to up the preamp voltages, but I just have not done it.  I can look at the signal and it is distorted prior to the PI so a good bit is preamp distortion, but you can hear the EL34's when they begin to breakup and they have very little headroom which I believe may be nice if I were to get a cleaner preamp signal.


It is just preference and playing style and that is why I haven't done much with the amp.  The reason I began with it in the first place is even my original old Marshall 1987 is simply loud, very loud, but I like the sound of EL34's.  El34's to me sound good at lower voltages.

[SILVERGUN]

The name "brown sound" is a misnomer.
Because the name makes no sense and was mistakenly used as a label for Eddie's sound, it stuck as a poorly descriptive adjective for the guitar tone/sound on early VH recordings. There is nothing "brown" about the sound. It only stuck because people need a label for something that they can't explain and supposedly Eddie had made a comment about Alex's snare having a brown (= organic) tone.
Man, what a stretch.   
I was only able to rationalize it to myself when I think of it as a Plexi being run at "brown out" conditions. That is my own definition that allows me to continue to use the term without wanting to punch myself in the face.

With all of that said...
The name (as inaccurate as it is), has stuck as a name, so we are stuck with it.
I find it best practice to just associate it with that one player's tone at that given time in history and be done with it.
Trying to associate it with any other amp/tone/player would only expand the definition of a name that should have never been.

If I had no prior knowledge of tone or guitar and you sat me down and played VH1 or 2 for me there are thousands of other words that I would have used to describe his tone. Calling it brown is like calling the sound of a helicopter "purple". 
Rant over.

[sluckey]

"Brown sound" comes from the term 'brown-out' that is used to describe a condition when the electrical power delivered to your home via the power grid is running at a voltage much lower than it should be, ie, your light bulbs will be dim (brown). Black-out is when the electrical power on the grid is totally dead.

EVH used a variac to reduce the AC power to his amp, ie, brown-out, because he liked the sound.

[SILVERGUN]

I was only able to rationalize it to myself when I think of it as a Plexi being run at "brown out" conditions. That is my own definition that allows me to continue to use the term without wanting to punch myself in the face.

"Brown sound" comes from the term 'brown-out' that is used to describe a condition when the electrical power delivered to your home via the power grid is running at a voltage much lower than it should be, ie, your light bulbs will be dim (brown). Black-out is when the electrical power on the grid is totally dead.

EVH used a variac to reduce the AC power to his amp, ie, brown-out, because he liked the sound.

And here I thought that was my own uniquely delusional explanation of a ridiculous, made up name...or at least something I had absorbed through tireless research and assimilated as my own translation.
Either way works for me. I will continue to take credit for it in the hopes that someone will be offended. 

[shooter]

from the term 'brown-out'

Since, line volts are up from the 'ol days, do other-non fender vintage amps have their own brown sound?

SG, as a painter, I'd think swamp green-gray might be closer to the helicopter sound, except the black one's, then I hear apocalypse now music

[Platefire]

Well just by the name "Brown", I've always equated it to "Not so Bright". That's not because of anything I've read regarding the "Brown Sound", just the impression that terminology brings to me. I think we can all agree that most vintage amps are fairly bright until you turn it up loud enough to distort and it Browns up pretty good:>) Speaking non-fender vintage amps, my stock Silvertone 1482 fills the bill on early breakup and not bright for sure. Platefire

[sluckey]

EVH was playing with his variac back in the days when it was common to hear about another major "brown-out" in a major city or even an entire region, especially in the northeastern US. Since what EVH was doing was simulating a power grid brown-out, I think his effect became known as the brown sound.

I don't think the EVH brown sound was ever associated with a Fender amp that had brown tolex on it.

[sluckey]

There was also a guy that ended not filling a lot of orders for Brown Sound kits.

I believe you mean Brown Note Amps. He had a good thing going but for whatever reason, just shut down, with no communication with his customers. Took the money then left a lot of people hanging. That was several years ago. I don't know if he ever made it right.

     http://www.brownnote.net/

[Ed_Chambley]

There was also a guy that ended not filling a lot of orders for Brown Sound kits.

I believe you mean Brown Note Amps. He had a good thing going but for whatever reason, just shut down, with no communication with his customers. Took the money then left a lot of people hanging. That was several years ago. I don't know if he ever made it right.

     http://www.brownnote.net/

Yep, that is it.  I do not know if he made it right either.  I simply did not like the reference to Brown Note and now you reminded me.  Just like the Friedman amps.  I now it's rock and roll, but we still have room for decency.

[Platefire]

If Tweed era amps produced their sound because less efficient lower voltage transformers, in effect they were producing the "Bown-out" effect by design before the Brown Sound was invented. No they wouldn't sound like a Plexi with a 4-12 cab but the brown out effect was at some degree at work in these amps. So referring to Brown Sound, should it be applied to a reduced voltage design or a Marshall Plexi on a variac? Platefire

[sluckey]

The brown sound is what you hear coming from the outhouse on a January morning when the last of the soft, white corn cobs have been used and the only thing left is the old coarse, brown cobs.   

[Platefire]

  There we have it! Brought to it's most logical Corn-clu-sion--Otch!

[shooter]

  now I get why you want your corn-crop to succeed, no used cobs at Sluckey's home

[sluckey]

Ahh, you made the connection! We keep the used cobs in the guest house.

[Merlin]

The brown sound is basically a 'wet' sound, i.e. there is a goodly amount of bass in your overdriven tone. Not loads of bass, but a healthy amount. The less bass, the more 'crisp n' dry' the overdrive sound becomes, until you get to squeaky ice pick!

[shooter]

We keep the used cobs in the guest house

BYO when visiting!!!!