Hoffman Amplifiers Tube Amplifier Forum
Other Stuff => Other Topics => Topic started by: SILVERGUN on January 04, 2013, 09:41:14 am
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As a result of a recent thread involving a unique scale, I thought I would offer up some help for anyone who has a block when it comes to understanding modes. (specifically the modes of the major scale)
I will try to keep the focus narrowed to the one specific breakthrough I had that involves seeing the patterns / positions of the major scale, and how they "link" together to form the patterns that cover the fretboard.
My ah-ha moment came when I realized that all of the patterns / positions remained constant throughout ALL of the modes of the Major scale!
So if you already know the fingerings for the Major or Minor Scales---then you already know the fingerings/patterns for ALL of the modes of the Major scale.
It's just which pattern you choose to "form" around your root note that will determine which mode you are using...
What separates the individual mode types is determined by which pattern you use in reference to the root note or key you are playing in, and you choose a specific mode to create a feeling or mood....that's it,,,that's why you would want to use a mode----to convey a feeling
***DISCLAIMER***I am not a music teacher and do not claim to have all the answers, BUT, this thread is intended to help guys who may have less knowledge than me,,,,and I would like to offer them this "simpler" way to look at the big picture,,,without involving music theory,,,,BUT instead speaking in terms of patterns and fingering on the fretboard,,,and how you can incorporate modes to spice up your playing,,,without spending too much time studying the equations that justify the scales
I'll try to keep this as simple as possible,,,and I promise you that if you can understand this, it can make a difference in your playing
I will use this web page / site for visual reference:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/guitar_modes.html (http://www.jazzguitar.be/guitar_modes.html)
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ohh my ......i just started playing guitar . and i play many hours a day , but i really know nothing , just play by sometype of scale sound.
this is great .
i wanted to quite playing guitar after hearing all this music .. and just listen instead as i have for years,its so great sounding....
but now ,,,,,,,,,,this really is nice of you ..
tom
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OK guys try this on for size:
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This guy does a great job of summing up quickly how you can relate each mode to the minor pentatonic scale you probably already know:
Learning the modes on guitar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_6uqmuqk78#ws)
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Here's the 7 playing excerpts from Frank Gambale's "Modes---No more Mystery" video, that really helped me figure this out:
Frank Gambale Modes no more mystery Examples (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ35RMGkRQc#ws)
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Here's a great explanation from the same Frank video:
Gambale Modes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaya7qJAJXs#)
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A lot of this stuff is obfuscated by fretboard or piano keyboard.
Cut all the blacks and whites off a piano. You will see that every note is the same size, 12 equal sticks per octave.
Pick your root note.
Find your intervals, chords, nodes, or other patterns.
They are all the same relative to the different root notes you start from.
If you are playing in B, and someone bumps the piano 3/4", you are playing in B-flat.
Each string on the fretboard has this same property. (Well, the frets get closer together as notes get higher, but not the abrupt way a piano tucks black sticks between white sticks.)
Find a fingering for B. If someone bumps the guitar one fret you are in B-flat. Or D bumped the other way two frets is C.
Ted Dunbar wrote a semi-mystic fret book. Way beyond me. I recall some of his students really dug it, and others used it in the toilet. It is out of print, not easy to find.
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If there is any interest in this thread, please don't hesitate to ask questions, and I will continue posting
I created Lesson 1 from scratch and there are plenty of resources on YouTube.......so before I create another "lesson", I just want to make sure I'm not wasting my time :sad:
If you already know the minor pentatonic scale and would just like to break out of it a little,,,DON'T MISS THE VIDEO IN REPLY#3 ON THIS THREAD
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If you want to understand theory as it relates to guitars, get Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist." It did me more good than six years at Berklee (though I really only took a couple years of guitar lessons there, having spent more time on songwriting and Music Production). It is easily my favorite resource for learning guitar. Even after twenty years, I can usually get something interesting from it, if I pick it up.
Gabriel
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Thanks Gabriel, I had never seen that book.....
I intended this thread to be a reference for guys who don't have any theory training .....so if you can think of anything else, please pile on...
I'm going to create lesson #2 on Mon. and try to explain in simple terms how all of these patterns and fingerings are all the same in an effort to take some of the mystery / intimidation factor away from what is really a simple theory, clouded by confusion
One little breakthrough for someone could lead to a huge improvement in their playing,,,,or at least their options
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Silvergun,
OK, this is pretty cool stuff and is helpful in making sense of it to me. Ironically, I am realizing that I have been doing some (limited degree) of this already in my playing. I'd "hear it" & then just play it not knowing it was a scale.
I was thinking of it as the pentatonic with half steps ............................ didn't know that there were scales that defined that already.
:dontknow:
I am going to keep up with your posts and review them. To be honest, if you want to go ahead and post everything now ........... that's fine. I also would be interested in you maybe just posting a lesson each week instead all at once.
As of now, I plan to read all of this and watch the videos. But I know also that I can get on overload with this stuff pretty quick which has been my perpetual downfall in this.
THANKS for posting it. I drew out the dorian stuff, phyrgian and aeolian and will start practicing those three.
with respect, Jeff
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A lot of this stuff is obfuscated by fretboard or piano keyboard.
Cut all the blacks and whites off a piano. You will see that every note is the same size, 12 equal sticks per octave.
Pick your root note.
Find your intervals, chords, nodes, or other patterns.
They are all the same relative to the different root notes you start from.
If you are playing in B, and someone bumps the piano 3/4", you are playing in B-flat.
Each string on the fretboard has this same property. (Well, the frets get closer together as notes get higher, but not the abrupt way a piano tucks black sticks between white sticks.)
Find a fingering for B. If someone bumps the guitar one fret you are in B-flat. Or D bumped the other way two frets is C.
1>2>3>4>5>6>7>8/1
C>D>E>F>G>A>B>C
D>E>F>G>A>B>C>D
But what just happened?
The half steps and whole steps between the notes just moved. So their relationship with respect to the 1 is different. That's why the scale sounds different.
1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 >M7 > 8/1 (The 3'rd is natural, Major 7'th)
C > D > E > F > G > A > B > C
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
W W h W W W h
m3 b7
1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > M7 > 8/1
D > E > F > G > A > B > C > D
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
W h W W W h W Edit; Fixed 3 to m3 and M7 to b7, sorry guys.
Now transposed to C;
1 > 2 >m3 > 4 > 5 > 6 > b7 > 8/1 (The 3'rd is minor, flat 7'th)
C > D > Eb > F > G > A > Bb > C
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
W h W W W h W
The formula for a Major scale is = 2 whole steps, 1 half step, 3 whole steps, 1 half step.
Start on any fret or key (on a keyboard) use this formula and you will play a Major scale in the key of the note you started on.
All scales have their own make up of half/whole steps (formula) that you can do this with.
I drew out the dorian stuff, phrygian and aeolian and will start practicing those three.
If you draw out the modes like I just did all transposed to C you can then see what the notes have become with respect to the root 1. You'll find some minor 3'rds, flated 7'th, flat 5's, suspended 4'ths, flat 6'ths, suspended 2'nds, etc. These are the notes in the chords made from their home scale that do the work, anything above them, 9's, 11's, 13's are only color.
It's much easier to see in the key of C. When I first did this it realy opened things up for me.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Nice work T,
It's great to see you reaching out for new heights ......very inspirational to me :thumbsup:
I kinda take this stuff for granted, and I'm proud to have something to share
I love your playing style and I have heard those elements in your playing....I have heard you mention before that you would like to learn more of the ins and outs of it all, and I would be proud to know that I helped 1%
The Frank video above that has playing examples of all 7 modes, gives a great overview of the different moods that can be created
I don't have a ton of lessons, but I will try to stick to the one big breakthrough of "seeing" how they all intertwine,,,,and how just by knowing the Major or Minor scale, you will be abe to "see" the fingering patterns for each mode
I never have used them all, and you basically just choose them to suit your taste,,,and I have a feeling that the 3 you chose will suit you fine
(the Aeolian is the natural minor scale, and that also corresponds with the scale that Doug suggested, so you are on the right track)
I'm still trying to figure out how to word it,,, to make a complicated subject understandable.......stay tuned
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SG the 1'st link you posted in this thread has exactly what I'm talking about. I couldn't copy and paste the chart he has in it but I was able to get parts of it and patch it together. I added a few notes also.
It's important to know the notes value in the scale so you know what your playing and where to resolve to over each chord and chord section/group. Certain notes you want to keep going to as main points of voicing against the chords. Others we use more sparcley more like passing tones. You may want to accent notes like a b9 or m3 or M7, etc over a chord that contains 1 or more of thoes notes. You can do it by ear but it's easier if you know what the chords built with and the values of the notes in the sacle that those chords are built from.
Plus guys like Larry Carlton aren't playing songs that stay in 1 single key through all the sections and/or groups of chords they're made of. They know how to disect the chords/groupings of chords to find the scales to play over the sections and how to bridge those sections together in their lead going from 1 section to the next.
The best guys I played with when I used to play out all knew the number values of the notes in the scale, the chord and in the songs chord progression. I've had guys a few times stand in front of the stage when I was trying to play a song that the band leader called on stage and counted off, that I didn't know. They where holding up/down fingers in real time with the song trying to tell me the chords to play. 2 fingers up for M2, 3 fingers down for m3, etc. But I didn't know them well enough to play them in key we were in and pull it off on the fly. Bass players and horn players know this stuff inside out too.
Let's add the 9's, 11's and 13 which can be natural, sharp or flat which are octives of the 2, 4 and 6.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
1 2 3 4 5 6
I Cmaj7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (natural 3'rd, Major 7'th)
Ionian C D E F G A B
II Dm7 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (minor 3'rd, flat 7'th)
Dorian D E F G A B C
III Em7 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (b2 = b9, plus you can't play a b2 next to root 1,
the b6'th = augmented/raised/sharp 5'th)
Phrygian E F G A B C D
IV Fmaj7 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 (#4 = b5)
Lydian F G A B C D E
V G7 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 (natural 3'rd, flat 7'th, dominant 7th scale/chord)
Myxolydian G A B C D E F
VI Am7 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 ( this is the relative minor scale of the 1'st root note, but it has a
b6 added where the dorian has a natural 6'th)
Aeolian A B C D E F G
VII Bm7b5 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Locrian B C D E F G A
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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The chords are built from major and minor 3'rds from the root scale. How many major and or minor 3'rds and the order their in starting with the root/1 of the chord is what gives the chord it's voice feeling wise.
2 whole steps = major 3'rd interval and 1 whole step and a 1/2 step (3 half steps) = minor 3'rd interval.
(The way I'd probable look at this scale is as a mb7b9 scale with a b6 thrown in for extra spice? But it is a natural mode so? :dontknow: )
Lets find the natural chord forms built from the phrygian mode;
Transposed to key of C;
III Em7 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Phrygian C Db Eb F G Ab Bb
1 = Cm7 C Eb G Bb (1 b3 5 b7)
2 = DbM7 Db F Ab C
C E G B (1 3 5 M7)
3 = EbM7 Eb G Bb D
C E G B (1 3 5 M7)
4 = Fm7 F Ab C Eb
C Eb G Bb (1 m3 5 b7)
5 = Gm7b5 G Bb Db F
C Eb Gb Bb (1 b3 b5 b7)
6 = Ab7b5 Ab C Eb G
C E Gb Bb (1 3 b5 b7)
7 = Bbm7 Bb Db F Ab
C Eb G Bb (1 b3 5 b7)
Every mode will have it's own set of chords built from it's scale. I've got all this stuff in books somewhere but it's very good practice to learn to transpose and work this stuff out on your own. I'm very rusty at this. Helps greatly to have access to a keyboard when you transpose the scales/chords.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Hey Willabe,
I'm with you 100% here.....
You got it, I got it,,,,,and I'm hoping to make these explanations so easy to understand, that anyone will be able to come here and get it..
Your last posts are accurate,,,and should be known, and are a great reference to backup my approach of fretboard vizualization
Of course everyone teaches a little differently, and we are teaching the same thing,,,just from different angles
My next lesson post will begin to fill in the blanks, and I'm going to stick to the theme of Key Of C Major (because that is the obvious choice and it will keep in line with where we have begun) so your posted equations are relevant...
I'm trying to imagine what it's like to have NO music theory, but still want to apply the modes to your playing
I don't want to go over anyone's head.......
My fretboard vizualization breakthrough was a huge moment for me,,,and if you've never looked at it this way, it may even broaden your options for improvisation! (it could also be sooo obvious and simple that you guys will be saying "is that it"..."well of course I knew that") I'm hoping it helps someone!
For the moment,,,throw the music theory out the window, and try to follow my next post.....
Please help me make it more digestible for the guys who are looking for a quick way to add some spice to their playing.
I'll be able to get it done tomorrow from behind my desk.
100% respectfully,
Dave
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approach of fretboard visualization
That's the problem with a guitar you can't see it as easy, especially at first, as with a keyboard in the key of C _ _ other than dots that make up a block pattern.
I'm going to stick to the theme of Key Of C Major (because that is the obvious choice and it will keep in line with where we have begun) so your posted equations are relevant...
Transposing to C is relevant because the notes on a keyboard are laid out in a row and all white keys with sharps and flats highlighted in black. Now you can see what you hear that's going on and why, when you move a note or play a different scale.
This is why with a fretted instrument where your playing movable patterns up and down the neck to change keys they throw out the note letters and go with the notes interval numbers. A keyboard is different because there are no movable patterns, every scale is a different pattern or form in every key. But even they are still thinking numbers.
I had a friend who played for Etta James for a while years ago and he told me 1 time that when she would rehearse her band she would tell him sometimes try a b7... chord instead here and try a .... chord here. She did not play any instrument but still she knew jazz voiced chords and what she would tell him to try he said was right. Said he learned a lot from her. :l2: Why did she know what chords to substitute and where? :think1:
If you major in music in collage, no matter what instrument you major with, they make you minor in piano. :laugh:
(At least they used to. :dontknow: )
When I look at the fretboard of a guitar I don't see the block dot pattern of the scale and chords but instead I see numbers. The 1, b3'rd, 5, b7, all those numbers move and stay the same with the pattern so it's not a lot to learn. 1 scale, 1 set of numbers. It's the blue print for the fretboard both layout and parts values. You can't be thinking, A, F#, Bb, D, etc... All those letters change in every scale. Now that is a lot to memorize. :l2:
All dots tell you is that your playing notes that are in the scale, but that's all they tell you. I've had guitar teachers who when they wrote out a scale or chord in tab they used the interval numbers where the dots would go instead.
I'm trying to imagine what it's like to have NO music theory, but still want to apply the modes to your playing
For the moment,,,throw the music theory out the window,
I don't want to go over anyone's head.......
Sorry, and I mean this with all respect, but that dog won't hunt. What I've posted are the first steps in the most basic theory, it don't get any easier than this.
Think about it, All the modes are built on this, it's where they come from. It's how they found them. Major and minor 3'rds, nothing more.
You can't do algebra (Jazz) or calculus (BeBop) if you can't add, subtract, multiply and divide.
Once you try and get past the major and minor block pattern scales on guitar you've just stepped up in harmony and there's no way to organize it any more to be able to apply it very well if at all.
Please help me make it more digestible for the guys who are looking for a quick way to add some spice to their playing.
Ringo Starr, "Got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues and you know it don't come easy"
Of course everyone teaches a little differently, and we are teaching the same thing,,,just from different angles
Well yes and no.
What your showing us is right as far as I understand music (which is not really all that much) but IMO you need to show both sides of the coin. That's what I was trying to add. I don't think it muddied up the waters by adding it.
I'm enjoying what your posting and will keep reading this thread with interest my friend. I'll bow out now and leave the full direction and pace of this to you as it's in good hands. :wink:
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Thanks Gabriel, I had never seen that book.....
I intended this thread to be a reference for guys who don't have any theory training .....so if you can think of anything else, please pile on...
I'm going to create lesson #2 on Mon. and try to explain in simple terms how all of these patterns and fingerings are all the same in an effort to take some of the mystery / intimidation factor away from what is really a simple theory, clouded by confusion
One little breakthrough for someone could lead to a huge improvement in their playing,,,,or at least their options
At some point, I became something of a theory reductionist, looking at most things as simple interactions of triads, so I'm afraid that me trying to teach theory in more conventional terms isn't much use.
In the end, the only really important purpose of theory is as a language to help musicians understand each other. Well, that, and to open up your ears to new ideas that people ignorant of theory never really seem to learn.
Gabriel
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Please help me make it more digestible for the guys who are looking for a quick way to add some spice to their playing.
+1 & thanks!
To give some feedback from someone who doesn't understand this stuff at all .......................
I played the pentatonic scale for yrs before I knew it had a name. So then I figured out that if it's a blues tune in A , I play the pentatonic in A. However, if it's country or folk ........... then I play the same pentatonic in F#. If it's a swing or traditional old time rock and roll, then I can alternate between playing that scale in A and/or F# on the same tune. (in my head, I hear exceptions to this but that's kinda how I think about it).
Given that pentatonic stuff as my reference point, what Silvergun is conveying meets me at my level of incompetence. AND I can also understand bits and pieces of Willabe's instruction. And I can see that being useful and essential in getting this stuff. For example, thinking of it as numbers 1 thru 7 was very helpful. Having said that, going thru Silvergun's stuff first is a very helpful transitional step right now.
Willabe, if you're open to it & are willing to support it ............. Maybe let Silvergun post a few more lessons & then if you're OK with it ......... I might edit your posts to follow in sequence AND then you can add some more lessons also?
What do you guys think? Does that sound OK? I want to learn and hear from both of you but the sequence of Silvergun's to Willabe's might be the most useful transition for others (like me) that don't have a clue about this stuff?
I truly value what both of you are posting but the sequence "feels" important to my understanding it.
And please don't delete anything you've posted, it's all good stuff.
IF we can get this thread done as a useful basic lesson foundation ................... then maybe I can edit it and place it into ARCHIVES?
With respect, Jeff
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What do you guys think? Does that sound OK? I want to learn and hear from both of you but the sequence of Silvergun's to Willabe's might be the most useful transition for others (like me) that don't have a clue about this stuff?
I truly value what both of you are posting but the sequence "feels" important to my understanding it.
And please don't delete anything you've posted, it's all good stuff.
IF we can get this thread done as a useful basic lesson foundation ................... then maybe I can edit it and place it into ARCHIVES?
I think that is all a great idea.....In all honesty Tubenit IS the guy I'm here for, and any one like him, who may feel like their playing options are limited by their knowledge........when I was out of work I used to give guitar lessons,,,,and kinda learned what makes some guys eyes roll back in their head....(talk of numbers, intervals, circle of fifths, relative keys :huh: )
I'm sure there will be a few guys who are intimidated by all of this theory, and thats why I keep hammering the simple theme...
I know right where T is coming from and the tips are aimed right at my estimation of his level of theory comprehension..............
And I definitely see the benefit of this being a combined effort.....there are going to be things that I am going to miss, and Willabe is filling in all of the blanks, with excellent material that will be needed for reference,,,,,,,,,,so absolutely yes, I would love to create a thread that could possibly help many,,,and for now I'll settle for one that will hopefully help one guy reach his goals...
At some point, I became something of a theory reductionist
And that's the one thing to keep in mind,,,,,,you can know everything under the sun, BUT if you can't apply it, it's painful!!!
I've never used a couple of these modes in practical playing, because they are just not practical for my playing style
BUT, the "trick" I'm going to show here will apply to ALL of them by default,,,because it's just one big circular thought process of picturing patterns
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Willaby, if you're open to it & are willing to support it ............. Maybe let Silvergun post a few more lessons & then if you're OK with it ......... I might edit your posts to follow in sequence AND then you can add some more lessons also?
If you want to understand theory as it relates to guitars, get Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist." It did me more good than six years at Berklee (though I really only took a couple years of guitar lessons there, having spent more time on songwriting and Music Production).
Actually sounds like Gabriel probable would be the go to guy on this since he went to Berklee. Songwriting counts in theory of harmony rules. :wink:
I'm enjoying what your posting and will keep reading this thread with interest my friend. I'll bow out now and leave the full direction and pace of this to you as it's in good hands. :wink:
That's fine Jeff.... as long as you don't erase any of the original post till it's a finished blend where/if needed that's helpful? (Other wise it should stand on it's own as written.)
PRR brought up the bump thing and he's right. I just expanded on it.
If you use a laser level each time you set it up on a tripod to use it you have to get a new reference "O" point. If you bump the tripod that "O" reference point just changed. Got to start again with a new "O" and don't bump the tripod this time until your done! :BangHead: :cussing: :laugh:
At some point, I became something of a theory reductionist, looking at most things as simple interactions of triads
I could be wrong but I think Gabriel is talking about chord progressions that use extended complex chords hence the reference to going back to finding the triads?
And that's the one thing to keep in mind,,,,,,you can know everything under the sun, BUT if you can't apply it, it's painful!!!
This is what I'm trying to add in a simple way, how to apply it needs the why.
On guitar with scale and mode patterns even though the block "dot" pattern looks the same their really not because the "O" reference point, root note has been moved. So now all the half step/whole step intervals between the notes in the scale/mode with respect to the 1 or root tone just moved. Same thing for all the major 3'rd, minor 3'rd intervals for the chords. That's why they sound different, have a different color to them.
Without referencing to a new "O" and numbering the rest of the notes with respect to that "O" your just noodling around in the scale/mode. In the short term you have some fun, which is fine, but your not really getting anywhere. In the long term what I'm trying to add, "the other side of the coin" in this will get you somewhere faster and you will have way more fun.
None of this is new. They saw these things in the scales/modes and chords from the beginning of music and as they figured them out ("saw" the relationships or rules of harmony) they organized them to teach with and use when playing/writing. These relationships or rules of harmony apply to all instrument. Nothing new under the sun.
It's said that guitar is one of the easiest instruments to pick up and learn to play just a little bit, but one of the hardest to master. I think that's very true.
Lets see the Troggs guitar player ("Wild Thing") versus a guitar player like Larry Carlton?
Hmmm...... :think1: :l3:
Like I keep saying guitars, Meh! Gimme one of these, :m2
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Sorry, and I mean this with all respect, but that dog won't hunt. What I've posted are the first steps in the most basic theory, it don't get any easier than this.
Think about it, All the modes are built on this, it's where they come from. It's how they found them. Major and minor 3'rds, nothing more.
You can't do algebra (Jazz) or calculus (BeBop) if you can't add, subtract, multiply and divide.
Once you try and get past the major and minor block pattern scales on guitar you've just stepped up in harmony and there's no way to organize it any more to be able to apply it very well if at all.
What your showing us is right as far as I understand music (which is not really all that much) but IMO you need to show both sides of the coin. That's what I was trying to add. I don't think it muddied up the waters by adding it.
I'm enjoying what your posting and will keep reading this thread with interest my friend. I'll bow out now and leave the full direction and pace of this to you as it's in good hands.
Sorry,,,I can't keep up with the posts here, but I just want Willabe to know that I have a ton of respect for you,,,,,and I'm trying to devise a simple plan to show 1 revelation that could help someone.......If I wasn't at work,,,,I might actually be able to accomplish that goal.
See you in a little while,,,the boss is in today :huh:
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See you in a little while,,,the boss is in today :huh:
Hey don't get in trouble at work because of a fool like me.
You can straighten me out latter.
Brad :laugh:
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I don't claim to know a lot of theory. In fact, I've forgotten most of what I used to know (you reach a point where it's more fun just to play than think). Modes have always bothered me because it seemed like a silly distinction that was mainly useful for composing. If you take a G major scale (Ionian mode) and manually work-out the mode patterns all the way up the neck, that will help more than trying to memorize them. The modes, for me, mainly let me "see" the pattern of notes all the way up the neck. The thing that got me stuck was that it's all the same notes. The A-Dorian is still the G-major (Ionian), just starting from a different tone - still the same 7 notes. Where things really started to "gel" was when a keyboard player mentioned playing different modes over the same root.
Play an A-minor (JamMan pedals are good for this). Play over it using the A-Dorian mode pattern. Then use the Phrygian mode with A as the root. Then play using the Aeolian mode starting with A as the root. I think Gambale's video would have been better if he had used the same rhythm for the demonstrations. Now go back and do the same thing with the "major" modes over a repeating major chord. It should help to make the modes more distinct. Then see how the Pentatonic scale "sits" inside these modes like the previous video showed. I don't think about intervals while I'm playing/improvising - I use the mode patterns as a "roadmap" of notes that I can safely play with.
From what I gather, using the same scale all the way through a progression is what jazz guys will refer to as "playing through the changes", while changing up modes based on the chords/progression is referred to as "playing with the changes". I probably need to dig out some books and go back and actually learn proper theory, but this gets me by.
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BTW, all you blues harp players, the modes are what they call "positions" in blues harp. Same thing.
A 10 hole diatonic harmonica is tuned to a major scale.
So in 1'st position with a C harp your in the key of C major. This is the 1'st mode = Ionian
Bob Dylan, Neil Young and Springsteen play in this position mostly. Jimmy Reed (blues player) played all the high notes in this position as did all the old blues harp players because you can bend the high notes/reeds in this position.
4'th position is the most used position for blues/rock/R&B. So if the song is in the key of C you play a F harp, a 4'th above the root. This is the 4'th mode = Lydian.
3'rd position is for a m7 song. Song is in key of C You play a Bb harp, a whole step below the root. This is the Dorian mode.
6'th position, you can also play minor key blues in this position as this is the relative minor of the root key. Not many old blues players knew this could be done, but some did. Song is in the key of C you play an A harp, 6'th above the root. This is the 6'th mode = Aeolian mode.
You can play in all the modes as positions on a 10 hole diatonic harp.
It's all the same thing and you can bet your bottom dollar the old harp players didn't know the classical names for the modes/positions but they knew they worked, well they knew at least some of them.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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The thing that got me stuck was that it's all the same notes. The A-Dorian is still the G-major (Ionian), just starting from a different tone - still the same 7 notes.
I don't think about intervals while I'm playing/improvising - I use the mode patterns as a "roadmap" of notes that I can safely play with.
This is why they number the notes, to see the tonal weight against each other and over/against the chords. The pattern is the road but the numbers are the road signs telling you where your at so you can decide where you want to go.
Where things really started to "gel" was when a keyboard player mentioned playing different modes over the same root.
Play an A-minor (JamMan pedals are good for this). Play over it using the A-Dorian mode pattern. Then use the Phrygian mode with A as the root. Then play using the Aeolian mode starting with A as the root. I think Gambale's video would have been better if he had used the same rhythm for the demonstrations. Now go back and do the same thing with the "major" modes over a repeating major chord. It should help to make the modes more distinct. Then see how the Pentatonic scale "sits" inside these modes like the previous video showed.
Yes.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Thanks SG & Brad for all the time & info help.
Even though I know all of the major/minor/pentatonic scales I had (& sometimes still do) get thrown off when changing different keys. I can connect them together but there's two things that happen w/ in various keys:
1 - The distance between one mode from another especially when going several away can become problematic (which fret to put the mode/scale on)
2 - When the above is happening I tend to move up or down an mode at a time but then the playing becomes more "scale oriented" rather that melodic and/or musical.
So I've created and forced myself to number them. This has helped a lot. I don't know if this is "correct" but I'd call the basic Am pentatonic #1, and the rest are numbered from there. It's not a perfect system but it's helped me a lot to "think less" about scale & placements and more on the melody/improv for soloing if that makes any sense?
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So I've created and forced myself to number them. This has helped a lot. I don't know if this is "correct" but I'd call the basic Am pentatonic #1, and the rest are numbered from there. It's not a perfect system but it's helped me a lot to "think less" about scale & placements and more on the melody/improv for soloing if that makes any sense?
Yes and it's correct.
That's how all the pentatonic scales I was taught by teachers and saw in books where numbered. They're conecting and overlaping.
There's 5 position patterns up/down the neck from open low E (root) to the 12'th fret/octave or since their movable patterns at the fret/root/1 on the low string you start at, up to the octave of that root note, where the patterns start over again.
Even though I know all of the major/minor/pentatonic scales I had (& sometimes still do) get thrown off when changing different keys. I can connect them together but there's two things that happen w/ in various keys:
1 - The distance between one mode from another especially when going several away can become problematic (which fret to put the mode/scale on)
2 - When the above is happening I tend to move up or down an mode at a time but then the playing becomes more "scale oriented" rather that melodic and/or musical.
Don't move, stay over the same frets. Just play the new modes pattern # position that fits over the same frets.
Unless you have to move becaues you need the notes to line up over the frets/strings for double stops/bends, just stay there.
Some things you can play in any of the 5 positions but, some things you can only play in 1 or maybe 2 of those 5 positions.
You know what I'm talking about here.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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It took me a while to cut and paste and add the text, and think of how to word it,,,but I'm happy with this as a 2nd lesson
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Very nice SG. Could I trouble you -when you have time of course - to make one of these labling the Am pentatonic as #1 on up through the 5 positions and/or another one starting w/ Em pentatonic.
Then to right, the corresponding 7note major scale that overlays on each of the 5 positions? I like to intertwine the two scales this way. Then when changing keys w/in the song or for chord changes it helps with this number system. Calling scales phrygian, ionian, a-holian, etc...just makes things unneccessarily hard and complex than need be. Simply thinking of one of these modes by the "scale #" helps immensely quicken things up especially when playing live. That's why the numbering system helped me much more. My head's got enough info rattling around in there, lol - and I hate those freaking names too.
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Very nice SG. Could I trouble you -when you have time of course - to make one of these labling the Am pentatonic as #1 on up through the 5 positions and/or another one starting w/ Em pentatonic.
Anything for you, my friend......just glad to see someone is reading this stuff
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Very nice SG. Could I trouble you -when you have time of course - to make one of these labling the Am pentatonic as #1 on up through the 5 positions and/or another one starting w/ Em pentatonic.
Then to right, the corresponding 7note major scale that overlays on each of the 5 positions?
Is this what you wanted jojo?...I wasn't 100% clear from your description....I can clean it up if it's right
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:icon_biggrin: Thank you! Pretty much yes. I just hand finished this also before seeing your post. I will scan it in a bit to show you what I'm talking about. This was a good excercise for me to do and something I've been meaning/wanting to do for a little while. I only started my numbering system w/in the last year for the pentatonic scale and I wasn't sure which scale to call #1 or #3 or what! Paralysis sort of set in which didn't help. What I've been trying to do is call out the scale # in my head & immediately go to the correct fret w/ the associated pattern. Unlearning old habits from many years and trying to create the new ones has been more of a battle that realized. But, it gets better, easier, and more fluid as time goes on. I should've done this a long time ago but I guess everyone has to "digest" it in their own way at their own speed. I never really had much true formal training & if it wasn't for the internet or my late father I don't know where I'd be.
One of the times I was swallowing my ego & pride to "start completely over" was when I met a guy named Tony Rizzi. I was getting personal lessons from him sight reading, pick training, chord construction, etc. before he fell off a ladder at his home & ended up passing away. He was the first guitar sight reading musician in the LA (Calif) music scene in the big band era waaaaay back in the day where he could adapt music scores with guitar. He was highly sought after because of this. He personally took Tommy Tedesco under his wing and taught & told him he needed to do this/read & write to be truely successful and the rest is history for his huge success. Tony played small local clubs & pubs in his semi-retirement and always played with George Van Eps along with others like Stan Kenton and many others. A true guitar pioneer & could pull off some unbelieveable runs and some really quirky and funny things too. I met him originally at one of the local junior colleges nearby & he was my teacher there for several semesters in the '80s. He did many studio, movie, & TV show recordings besides big band stuff and I was told recorded the guitar for Batman, The Munsters, & many others along with being the guy behind the curtain for the Smothers Brothers Show, & others too.
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That's fine Jeff.... as long as you don't erase any of the original post till it's a finished blend where/if needed that's helpful?
I will honor that request.
Not sure what to do??????????
Brad, your stuff is soooooooooo far advanced (in regards to where I am) that I understand probably less than 1/10th of it (if that much). I say that not as a criticism of your posts or knowledge, but simply an honest statement of my lack of knowledge and severe incompetence.
I'll need to see what unfolds and ponder an idea of maybe starting a whole new thread with Silvergun's stuff first and then post your stuff following? Sort of a cut and paste approach?
With respect, Jeff
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2'nd Edit;
(Brad - don't even worry about anything, it's all good. We should all be able to take a little ribbing. I know you're always coming from a good place)
Ahh, resolve in harmony, thank you JoJo.
Brad :laugh:
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I'll need to see what unfolds and ponder an idea of maybe starting a whole new thread with Silvergun's stuff first and then post your stuff following? Sort of a cut and paste approach?
That's fine Jeff, SG will keep it growing as he has time and I'll lay back. And if I can add anything latter that would be of help, fine. (I don't want him getting in trouble at work trying to move it forward too fast because of me. No, No, No. :w2:)
SG is doing a great job and I think I see/understand what he's going for and I think it's great.
Jeff, your hearts desire to edit and organize for all of us to have access to learn at this forum is as always a more than generous thing.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Scales are really collections of notes that sound good together on a specified root.
Half/Whole steps are an artificial. IMHO there should only be steps, with a lot of 2-step gaps in musical scales. But too late to fight that fight.
For that matter: the 12 notes per octave is artificial. The octave is truth. The simple intervals are truth. When you start combining them, with high pitch accuracy, you arrive at notes that are very close but not identical. For the simpler intervals you find 12 clusters per octave. If you want free choice of root note, there's no better "fix" than the a-musical equal-temper.
> Transposing to C is relevant because the notes on a keyboard are laid out in a row and all white keys with sharps and flats highlighted in black.
Yes, and piano ONLY makes sense in C, because the 12 notes have been compressed into 8 spaces by staggering-back the notes you never use in C. Meaning almost any other root means different patterns involving the black keys and differing fingerings.
If you cut-off the front of the piano, and play at the hammers-dampers, the patterns are consistent. (You may see this by watching the dampers.)
Guitar is naturally step/fret on each staring. However the interval from one string to the next is inconsistent. So a fingering changes if you try to find it one string over (say if you are trying to clear the low string to add a bass line).
> they make you minor in piano.
The school where I teched (not taught!), everybody got several semesters of Basic Theory classroom (now online), and "B.A. majors must ...pass the Keyboard Proficiency Examination" (there was Piano Class I and II if you didn't already have proficiency).
> important purpose of theory is as a language to help musicians understand each other
For-sure; but also a language is a road-map of what is possible. Learning Eskimo or Hawaiian you become aware of the 43 different kinds of snow or lava, and can work with that fact. I can work wood with screwdriver and hacksaw, but if I hung around Gabe I'd hear words like shaper and jig and become aware of other ways to make wood objects. Music Theory covers all the best-loved ways to put notes together, including ones that intuitive players may be fuzzy on.
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(Brad - don't even worry about anything, it's all good. We should all be able to take a little ribbing. I know you're always coming from a good place)
Okay, so for what it's worth here's a system that I've come up with. Likely just another way to say something that's been said a million times but for me, it's seemed to work better than other methods. I'm a numbers kind of guy and thinking of scales as numbers makes it easier for me to know where I'm at or where I've been. Sometimes to help cement it into my thick cranium I'll improvise to some chord progression in an unfamiliar key and call the scale number out loud before I make the next change. Another fun thing is to play a two chord rhythm and switch keys each time the chord changes. For example, The Stones intro for "You Can't Always Get What You Want" is slow and goes btwn C & F chords. I will alternate btwn Am pentatonic & Dm pentatonic on the changes for more of a melodic feel as the song slowly settles into the 1st verse. Then when it picks up tempo and gets rockin, a blistering face melting solo by SG on his "Turbo 'wreck" in Cm pentatonic and/or Eb maj would be more appropriate. :guitar1
Now where the numbering system helps - besides the obvious of moving the same patterns up & down the neck 5 frets for Pattern 1/Am and going up 5 frets to Dm, I can stay on the same 5th fret area (like Brad suggested earlier). For C chord; play pattern 1 (Am), F chord; play pattern 4 (all on 5th fret area). So I hear the C and think "1", hear the F and think "4". Now I can move around more freely and when C comes again I can move up the neck & think pattern "3", then for the F I'd think "1". Then move up the neck again and think "4", then "2"...and so on.
The same idea can be done using the major scale, or major pentatonic, or minor scale. All we do is use these 5 patterns but where and how you use them makes all the difference.
Now for my own last personal cluster F@#K. I was taught to learn the scale positions originally in Cmajor with the Phygian mode shape being pattern or scale #1. I wish it could've been called "4" because then my numbering system would be the same for both pentatonic and major scale patterns. So I either continue to go with it or re-learn the major scale pattern to it's new number or vice versa. So far I'm about half way there. I will say that just in explaining this sort of personal dilemma, writing it down, and typing it out here has helped to organize my thoughts on it much better. I should've done this much sooner but I have SG to thank for causing me to finally do it now. I spend a fair amount of time writing schematics, layouts, troubleshooting, & building but can't forget to allot more time for this stuff too.
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Music Theory covers all the best-loved ways to put notes together, including ones that intuitive players may be fuzzy on.
Actually, eventually theory covers EVERYTHING musical, not just the "best-loved." It covers the micro-tonal poly-rhythmic art noise of guys like Glenn Branca just as much as it does Rhythm Changes (the 32 bar chord progression from "I got Rhythm" that - with substitutions - makes up the changes behind about 60% or all jazz songs), Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring," or "London Calling" by The Clash. That's the whole point.
I always know someone is completely ignorant of theory when they talk about "the rules," or my least favorite phrase, "you have to know the rules before you can break them." It totally misses the point - THERE ARE NO RULES IN MUSIC. Theory gives you the language to communicate what you are doing with others, but that's it. The "rules" people always go on about aren't about music or music theory - they are a device for teaching you the language. It is no different than conjugating verbs in a French class. It has nothing to do with speaking French, but it gives you some of the tools you need to speak the language. Theory class exercises have nothing to do with making music, but they give you some of the tools you need to communicate with other musicians.
Much of my favorite music is made by people with really deep understanding of theory, but who have stopped thinking about it. At some point, it just becomes background, and you just play. But having learned theory, you're ears have learned to recognize things that you wouldn't have before you learned theory. The somewhat cliched version of this is to say, "learn everything, and then forget it when you play."
Gabriel
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Very well said PRR and Gabriel,,,,I'll save all of the "quote boxes", because it would take me an hour to agree with everything you guys are saying here :thumbsup:
PRR, just having you here raises the IQ total substantially!
Jojo, I love your approach there, and it really ties in with where I'm going with this (except for your numbering system,,,I dont think numbers,,,,but that doesn't mean someone else won't find that method useful,,,so thanks for sharing)
Please check my **disclaimer in the first post of this thread to understand better where I was coming from with this specific thread
I have given guitar lessons at different points in my life and I've seen the "deer in the headlights" look many times when you start trying to apply these theories to guys who just wanna play.......so that's where this is coming from
I watch my sister-in-law struggle to the point of giving up piano, because she can't do what her teacher has assigned her (sight read and play sheet music in Keys other than C).............and I say to her----"why bother?"......I sit down and make a simple song and she says "that is nice, what is it?",,,and I say "it's what I feel right now,,,nobopdy told me to play anything,,,,and if you notice I'm NOT using the black ones".... (I'm no pianist)
BUT, because her "teacher" isn't there to OK my approach, she never listens to me, and passes it off as though I have some majical skill, that automatically comes hand in hand with being a guitar player..........so every Christmas I sit and watch her struggle and get nowhere and I feel bad for her and her teacher.......you can't fix stubborn
And Brad,,,just keep being Brad....it wouldn't be the same without you :wink:
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I spend a fair amount of time writing schematics, layouts, troubleshooting, & building but can't forget to allot more time for this stuff too.
Amen Brother,,,,it's all give and take
We only get so much time here and it's a tough choice---PLAY? or BUILD?
Recently my building has inspired my playing so it's been WIN-WIN
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We only get so much time here and it's a tough choice---PLAY? or BUILD?
Recently my building has inspired my playing so it's been WIN-WIN
Exactly, I find when I'm dialing in a design or debugging (think Tubenit ;) it causes a lot a playing to do this. So it really goes back and forth A LOT!!! That's when the wife about starts to lose it at times. She's fine w/ me in the garage at my bench or studying, etc. as she knows where I am and I'm quiet! Not getting into trouble or causing it, lol. :laugh:
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WHOA !!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is really cool!! :worthy1: :worthy1:
I finally had a chance to put on a CD of jam tracks and try out the Dorian, Phyrgian and Aeolian modes.
Some observations :think1: :think1::
1) Some of those work excellent with Santana's stuff where pentatonic is lacking ................. (never could find his groove)
2) After playing for a while, I realized I was somewhat doing those modes already by picking notes out of what I understand (guess)
to be a minor pentatonic and then throwing in some notes from what I understand (guess) to be a major pentatonic. So I was already
playing partially in those modes.
3) I am surprised how easily I am adapting to the Dorian and Aeolian modes to use them on songs
4) Sort of a jazz type tune allowed me to play pentatonic in C (song was in C) and then use Dorian, Phyrgian and Aeolian in "A"?
Playing along with BB King, I often will use pentatonic in C and in A when his song is in C. So this is kind of sort of like that.
5) Then I tried Dark Side of the Moon (Pink Floyd) and found all those work in B along with pentatonic in B.
6) Some of the time one or more of those modes has notes that work OK transitioning from one place to another BUT you couldn't
stay on the note very long. Like the Phyrgian was useful transitioning around on Dark Side of the Moon & sounding good moving
thru the mode rapidly but wouldn't allow me to play some of the notes slowly where they stand out.
7) Because I use so many bends, my little finger doesn't always get much of a work out playing lead (as opposed to chords), but it
is pretty essential to use my little finger in some of these mode runs
8) On one song, the pentatonic sounded kind of "forced" and yet some of these other modes fit right in
Honestly, I think this will be the most helpful thing I've learned in yrs to help me improve my playing.
I'm pretty excited about this and think it will be something that will be a natural part of my playing 6 months from now.
Silvergun, you definitely understood my mental block learning this stuff & referencing the pentatonic stuff was VERY COOL and useful to me!!!! Thank you!!
What I need to do next is get further down the line in HEARing where these modes go and then after that start to figure out why they work. I am going to focus on hearing this stuff first and using it before I rack my brain trying to make sense of it.
VERY FUN stuff!!!!! Back to the guitar and amp now for some more playing
With respect, Jeff
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GREAT feedback Jeff, :grin:
Exactly what I was hoping to hear......the beginning of a happy ending :thumbsup:
That 1 post made every minute that I have put into this, completely worth it X 1,000,000
One of the first solos that I learned note for note was Time off of that album (DSOTM), and that was a breakthough moment in scale understanding for me, and bend intonation,,,,so it's great to hear you using that album as a backing track
To quote you---"I like the way you're looking at this all", and using what YOU want to YOUR advantage
It's been said---"If it sounds right, it is right"---and that's all "the rules" you need.
Congratulations, and keep on keepin' on.........one of the greatest joys in life is the realization of a dream (like building a Wreck :wink:)
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Actually, eventually theory covers EVERYTHING musical, not just the "best-loved." It covers the micro-tonal poly-rhythmic art noise of guys like Glenn Branca just ..... That's the whole point.
I always know someone is completely ignorant of theory when they talk about "the rules," or my least favorite phrase, "you have to know the rules before you can break them." It totally misses the point - THERE ARE NO RULES IN MUSIC. Theory gives you the language to communicate what you are doing with others, but that's it. The "rules" people always go on about aren't about music or music theory - they are a device for teaching you the language.
Theory class exercises have nothing to do with making music, but they give you some of the tools you need to communicate with other musicians.
Really? No rules? :think1:
And all these years I've been wasting my time. I could have learned this guys language;
Glenn Branca interview.
http://youtu.be/aEq57S094ro (http://youtu.be/aEq57S094ro)
Seems like a man with no rules. He is a musical genius!
The need for structure/rules in this world is a reality. It's found in nature, physics, math, it's found in the building trades, it's found in wood working, etc....
There's an old 3 stooges short where they build a house. :w2: Front door was half way up the wall, horizontal and had no stairs going to it. Stairs crooked, were up 3' off the floor attached to the wall with no door at the top stair..... everything was wrong and by the end of the short it all came crashing down. NO RULES.
Go ahead and build a flat top guitar with no rules. At best it will just be a bad sounding, playing and looking guitar. At worst the top will wrap, pull up or even fail and the neck joint will move or even fail. Why, no rules for the load structure bracing pattern and neck tenon joint.
Only in the "arts" do people pull this kinda stuff and get away with it.
WHY? Because it's "ART".
Like fine arts painters talking a handful of night crawlers dipping them in a can of paint and throwing them down on a sheet of canvas on the floor. 5 or 6 handfuls dipped in different colors, let them wiggle around for a while and instant work of fine art. Now that really speaks to me.
Give me a break. :l3:
Much of my favorite music is made by people with really deep understanding of theory, but who have stopped thinking about it. At some point, it just becomes background, and you just play. But having learned theory, you're ears have learned to recognize things that you wouldn't have before you learned theory. The somewhat cliched version of this is to say, "learn everything, and then forget it when you play."
This is a given as with anything else in life we learn. Once you learn it you don't need to think about. You only learn it to have the freedom to freely function in it.
Theory, rules of harmony are also a way for each person to organize music in our own minds to be able to access what we what to play when we need it.
THERE ARE NO RULES IN MUSIC is a cliche also. Actually it goes; "The first rule in music is their are no rules in music."
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Really? No rules? :think1:
And all these years I've been wasting my time. I could have learned this guys language;
Glenn Branca interview.
http://youtu.be/aEq57S094ro (http://youtu.be/aEq57S094ro)
Seems like a man with no rules. He is a musical genius!
He's married to a friend of mine, actually. Most people aren't going to really get into his music, but some people do. Both Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo from Sonic Youth used to be in his Orchestra. So was Paige Hamilton from Helmet. All three site him as an important influence. They went in different directions with it, to say the least, and both groups reached much larger audiences than Glenn Branca himself will ever reach. But they did it using, at least in part, using ideas they got from his compositions. And at times, some of his stuff can be very powerful. If you are in the right mood, and of course, if you can turn up the volume loud enough to actually get the effects he is after.
But this is normal. How many people actually bought Velvet Underground albums? But the people who did all started bands, and a lot of people who wouldn't much care for the Velvets sure loved The Clash, or The Police. Rite of Spring started a riot, the audience was so upset (not actually true - the riot was probably because of the nature of the ballet it was written for - it was a rather ugly and provocative dance), but it changed everything in orchestra music after it. Even I have a hard time with a lot of the Minimalists, find atonal composers difficult at times, and twelve tone rows are often not that musical. But I've heard a few young composers in the last few years who use all of those same techniques, but integrated with all the more traditional stuff, and they have made some absolutely glorious music! (THIS ONE (https://soundcloud.com/adrian-knight/manchester?in=adrian-knight/sets/stuff) was particularly good at the Minnesota Orchestra's New Composer's Institute concert in 2012, though you may not like it as much as I did, but I nearly wept at the concert. If you are going to listen to this, keep the volume very low, and close your eyes - or at least, that is what the composer recommends.)
Only in the "arts" do people pull this kinda stuff and get away with it.
WHY? Because it's "ART".
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't art, that it isn't creative or even that it isn't good. I don't much LIKE Bob Dylan, but I know he is good at what he does. Same with a lot of country music (I can't STAND the Louvin Brothers, for instance), but that doesn't mean it can't be good.
Look, if you are doing a gig with a bunch of friends, you are playing (hopefully) what you are hearing in your head, but there is nothing which says you can't play something else if you hear that instead, UNLESS you agree to the rule. But those rules are only rules BECAUSE you agree to them. At another gig, the rules can be totally different. Sure, form and all that have their place, but so does chaos. I don't have any interest in listening to Ornette Colman every day, but some days its the only thing that will satisfy my ears.
So like I said, there are only two reasons you need theory - to open your ears to things you hadn't thought about before, and to give you the language you need to communicate the things you hear in your head. The "rules" you get in theory classes are just there to show you a particular concept for an exercise. Once you get into the real world, you should play what you hear. If what you hear is nothing but I-IV-V progressions, that's great! Play it! I love that stuff!!!! But I also love long drawn out periods of dissonance with constantly shifting time signatures and 7 part counter point!
Heck, in traditional harmony, they are always telling you to never use parallel fifths, but if you listen to most hard rock or metal genres, that's all there is - constant parallel fifths!!!! (POWER CHORDS!!!!!) But somehow, I thing Bach would probably dig him some Metallica or Megadeth! :headbang: Though, I suppose as a church organist he might be more of a Stryper fan. :dontknow:
Gabriel
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OK,,,more cutting pasting and simplifying......I'm happy with this as #3
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Very nice SG.
(You have the 6 and 7 modes flip/floped. A is the relitive minor for C and is the 6'th mode)
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Very nice SG.
(You have the 6 and 7 modes flip/floped. A is the relitive minor for C and is the 6'th mode)
Thank you Sir,,,,of course you are correct :thumbsup:
I knew it was only a matter of time until I made a mistake....thanks for catching it quick before too many people save / download jpeg
2 heads are always better than 1......I edited the pic to reflect correct order of modes.
THANKS!
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I knew it was only a matter of time until I made a mistake....thanks for catching it quick before too many people save / download jpeg
Easy mistake to make, no big thang.
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Only in the "arts" do people pull this kinda stuff and get away with it. WHY? Because it's "ART".
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't art, that it isn't creative or even that it isn't good.
Ahh, yes I see and there it is. Like the hip kids say now "it's all good". Why? Because it's "Art" and in "Art" we all know "there are no rules". So it can't be wrong, because "I'm just reflecting my feelings through the artistic medium of my choice." So it must be good, right?
And that's how they get away with it, the ultimate excuse. At least for the people who go all long with it. Or should I say "buy" it? I say "the Emperor is wearing no clothes."
Just because you get up run, jump around, hit, catch and throw a ball around on a field while reflecting all the feelings in your heart, doesn't make you a good athlete. Ahh, but athletes have to follow rules and the competition/game/event has to be organized when they play. So that won't work as an analogy, cause "There are no rules in music". Just play whatever you want when you want. As long as your feelings come out in the music, "it's all good."
Sure, form and all that have their place, but so does chaos.
So let me get this straight; You refer to Glenn as writing "compositions" and having an "orchestra" but guys like me "are completely ignorant of theory" because;
I always know someone is completely ignorant of theory when they talk about "the rules,"
Look if you like it fine. If you enjoy listening to "long drawn out periods of dissonance with constantly shifting time signatures and 7 part counter point!" fine.
Look you might know volumes more about music than I do and you might be able to play circles around me while running backwards. :dontknow: (I said early on that I really only know the basics of music theory.)
But don't bring up Glenn as a "composer" and then insult people who dare to use the word "rules" (of which I'm one) in reference to sorting and organizing harmony in music.
or my least favorite phrase, "you have to know the rules before you can break them."
BTW, I never said that part.
He's married to a friend of mine, actually. Most people aren't going to really get into his music, but some people do. Both Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo from Sonic Youth used to be in his Orchestra. So was Paige Hamilton from Helmet. All three site him as an important influence. But they did it using, at least in part, using ideas they got from his compositions. And at times, some of his stuff can be very powerful.
I believe we are wired to be moved by music, plain and simple. This is widely understood by musicians and non players too. It's a big part, maybe the biggest, of why we play and they listen.
But just because we're moved by some piece of music doesn't make it good by itself alone. Watch the news and you'll see and hear something that will move your heart, but that doesn't automatically make it good. In most cases it was probably horrible.
I can hear the feelings (at least some) that Glenn and Sonic Youth are trying to reflect from their hearts, it's not to hard to hear. (And between the music I've heard by him and the interview, as conveyed by his own words and "craft" if that's what you want to call it, if my ears, eyes and heart are not lying to me, and I say this with only compassion for him as a fellow human being, but he's a very troubled man.) The feelings might be coming from a deep place inside them, but that in and of it self doesn't make their music good. It's not very hard to do what their doing musicaly.
Brad
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How many people actually bought Velvet Underground albums? But the people who did all started bands
I did, still have the album, but I was already in a band. :laugh: It was a double album, might have been a greatest hits package? I was young, sat down with it and learned to play all the songs, didn't take very long. I was proud of myself, moved on to some other album and then forgot about it. I haven't heard that album in 30+ years.
Got a few Lou Reed albums/CDs too, can't listen to them much because of the lyrics on some of the songs. On Lou Reed live the band is Detroit session men and they are great players!
Interesting side effect about having "No rules in music' is that it levels the playing field now doesn't it? Hmm...... :think1: Because "it's all good." There's no higher levels of musical craft of composition or lyrics or melody. It's all even as long as it expresses emotion? There's no bettering the final product of the craft to convey the story and feelings that go alone with it?
But isn't that what refining the craft of the art medium is about?
I saw an interview with Prince 1 time and while I'm not a fan IMO he can write a hook. He said that today's (known) songwriters "don't know their craft" when it came to writing songs. IMO, he's right.
and a lot of people who wouldn't much care for the Velvets sure loved The Clash, or The Police.
But there's a whole lot of distance between the level of developed musical talent of the Velvets (Lou Reed) to the Clash to the Police. A WHOLE LOT. Not even apples to oranges.
Guitars Meh! Gimme one of these; :m2
Brad :icon_biggrin:
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Hmm. Interesting that Dissonance is "defined" as the effect of tension or disturbance made by certain combinations of sounds. So if you are using seconds, sevenths, diminished and augmented intervals (talking identifiable notes here), you are following a formula or rule. Actually the same would apply to any noise/sound/combination you would want to make. Otherwise you would be using more pleasing consonant intervals - again, a formula or rule. Dissonance has always been used in the process to tell a story or make a transition in a mood. However, a whole composition of just dissonance and shifting time signatures is like an artist painting the canvas black. The same would apply to a composition of a single note - no matter how pleasing. Just because you can pick up a single tool, no matter how you hold it, does not mean you are creating art IMVHO.
Now we come to the definition of "Art". "Traditional" definitions (which the philosophers constantly decry) talk of beauty, of interest, and the requirement of some sort of expertise. Even the most far reaching of opinions overlap with the following: (1) possessing positive aesthetic properties; (2) being expressive of emotion; (3) being intellectually challenging; (4) being formally complex and coherent; (5) having the capacity to convey complex meanings; (6) exhibiting an individual point of view; (7) being original; (8) being an artifact or performance which is the product of a high degree of skill; (9) belonging to an established artistic form; (10) being the product of an intention to make a work of art (Gaut 2000). However, "cluster" theorists claim that there can never be a broad brush approach. Really?
I've never believed there are words without definition. Just like there is no music without rules. Just like the amps we build today. The designs have been beat to death way before we were born. We may tweak the final result, but we are still following the tried and true paths.
What I can tell everyone for sure - a Tele is an abomination, a waste of wood and wire. And that's a FACT! Oh, and the Beatles are over rated.
Jim
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:bs:
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:laugh: :l2:
That's quite funny!
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Now,,, THAT IS ART!
:l3:
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Ok, I'll be fair. Let's dissect this and analyze it for it's true content and meaning. :think1:
Using the criteria that I previously spoke of:
(1) No
(2) Obviously a dark, deep seated, hatred of true talent.
(3) Absolutely not
(4) No
(5) Only to those with like minded perverted tendencies
(6) See #5 and also must have pushed the button of someone else in the peanut gallery who wasted their money on a funny looking guitar.
(7) Oh please, there have been jealous humans since the dawn of man
(8) :l2: ......yeah......
(9) See #8
(10) Is this preschool? Bueller? Hello?
I can also speak for the Cluster Theorists and officially call it a cluster of epic proportions.
Plus, the fact that a behavioral therapist thinks that it was "quite funny" and who also owns a Tele....well, enough said.
Jim :m19
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I only have 3 things to say in my defense:
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OOps,,,,,I don't know how that last one got in there :dontknow:
I hope I haven't accidently insulted that true TeleMaster by placing him in close proximity to his inferior predecessor
someone else in the peanut gallery who wasted their money on a funny looking guitar.
C'mon now, pre-school? :huh:........I had a strat once,,,,,and then I traded it in for a REAL guitar (by the way,,,I am rubber and you are glue....)
:happy2:
Plus, the fact that a behavioral therapist thinks that it was "quite funny" and who also owns a Tele....well, enough said.
I believe that the prerequesite for being a behavioral therapist is the recognized presence of a god-given gift to determine what is and isn't funny.........and therefore his endorsement of my artwork validates the humor in it :undecided:
I also believe that "Baby HUGH'ey" himself would approve of my thread,,, it's content,, and meaning to those rare and elusive few who aren't afraid to admit that they aren't musical geniuses,,,,,those damn "lower class" pentatonic slingers who will happily settle for a few extra notes to add to the box.............even the "Dark Lord" himself would have to see the beauty in providing these harmonically challenged patrons with a mild dose of Theory-free fretboard freedom..............or is he the musical communist I have always pictured him to be :dontknow:
Yup, I just said that,............now what? :wink: :d2: :brushteeth: :sleepy2:
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Yes, Pre-school :dontknow: The whole reason for that throwaway two sentences was to underline the point I was trying to make about art and opinions.
The real reason you and 'Nit think that is so funny and enjoy belittling my point is because deep down under all that false ego, you guys are very, very, insecure people and putting someone down makes you feel better about your pathetic Tele ownership, your anemic tone, all the people making fun of your silly guitar, etc., etc..... That is also a characteristic of bi-polar. You buy a goofy guitar, and then expect it to somehow sound good!?!?! Classic affliction. :help:
Oh, and the fact that you posted a pic of that horrendous, pinch harmonic abusing, buzz saw amp playing, excuse for a guitar player - alongside THE master and then calling him inferior?!?!?!..... I'm sorry, but that is past the point of no return. There is nothing you can say or do to come back from that one. I hope all your new guitar strings go flat immediately after installing them. I hope your intonation is a moving target that you will never hit. I hope your pickups sound like mud on a stick. I hope you.... Oh wait, I'm just describing typical Tele ownership!
Sheesh, I try to contribute with a coherent, well thought out post - and look what happens. The Delta Tau Chi Fraternity takes over...... I must rise above that rabble and not sink to the depths of despair that you two are currently swimming in.
For what it's worth, I think Hugh would enjoy your thread!
Jim :m8
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Silvergun, I think you can hold your own with my dear(ly) warped friend Ritchie200! :icon_biggrin:
I've never been quite capable of matching his level of diabolical humor. He's always seemed to have a trump card. I've realized that something about playing a strat took him so far over into the dark side that his humor has always overshadowed mine.
:m13
I will say that it is nice to see that Ritchie Blackmore matured and came to his senses to play such a remarkable fine instrument as the Tele. I personally like his good taste with the black Tele and f-holes. Very cool!! Danny Gatton & Tab Benoit would be very proud of him.
:thumbsup:
I've put together a pretty decent CD of backing tracks that seem to be a great match for experimenting with the Dorian, Phyrgian and Aeolian modes. Practiced it again last night. Lots of variety on the CD to try different style of music with these different modes.
I can't play runs very quickly in those modes ............... BUT I am adapting to using them more quickly than I had anticipated.
I am typically a strong critic of my own playing. On a good day, I'm mediocre (at best) if everything falls perfectly into place . When I try recording, I typically throw away 2 or 3 songs for each one that I keep.
Having said that, I played along with some swing jazzy blues last night & I actually thought that it sounded quite good & enjoyed what I was hearing. Straight pentatonic was pretty lame on that backing track; BUT adding the other modes, I found some really sweet notes in there that fit right into the song. This stuff will be really useful to me on some music that's been pretty elusive to me before.
I think I am going to be able to begin intuiting and hearing where those modes are useful.
Learning this stuff is really encouraging to me. THANK YOU again! With respect, Tubenit
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What mode is this?
Isn't it a pitty?
http://youtu.be/drCKvCL93hw (http://youtu.be/drCKvCL93hw)
Brad :offtheair:
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Silvergun, I think you can hold your own with my dear(ly) warped friend Ritchie200! :icon_biggrin:
Well, I'm just here to make sure you're not subjected to any unnecessary distractions.... :icon_biggrin:
Having said that, I played along with some swing jazzy blues last night & I actually thought that it sounded quite good & enjoyed what I was hearing. Straight pentatonic was pretty lame on that backing track; BUT adding the other modes, I found some really sweet notes in there that fit right into the song. This stuff will be really useful to me on some music that's been pretty elusive to me before.
I think I am going to be able to begin intuiting and hearing where those modes are useful.
Learning this stuff is really encouraging to me
Really glad to hear that you're having fun with it, and that it's taking you where you want to go
I'll continue soon in hopes of completing an entire lesson plan for future reference.....
Some guys may say "was that it?"........BUT, until you see it all for yourself,,no explanation can match just being able to apply it!
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I hope all your new guitar strings go flat immediately after installing them. I hope your intonation is a moving target that you will never hit. I hope your pickups sound like mud on a stick.
Now thats just plain mean spirited :sad: :embarrassed: :cry:
If you're wondering where this came from,,,I never forgave you for this:
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14146.0 (http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14146.0)
A Plexi channel on a Line6......geez :huh:
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A Plexi channel on a Line6......geez :huh:
I have mixed feelings as I just repaired a Spider 112 Bogner version Line 6 last week - an easy $100!
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I think I am going to be able to begin.... hearing where those modes are useful.
Learning this stuff is really encouraging to me.
This is the reason for this specific thread :thumbsup:
If you can inspire one person, just by sharing something that you may take for granted, then the benefit is always worth more than the effort or method used....
Maybe teaching can be considered an artform?..........(oops,,,I didn't mean to start that up again :icon_biggrin:)
Which came first?----the music or the theory? :w2:---------who cares?? :think1:,,,,,,,,,but I think the answer is obvious
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hi .
Thanks all.and silvergun
its working ..and my wife is enjoying the new song partials that i found .
i
I am justa beginner but i have found a teacher and i hope to be his student ,
he has a phd in guitar .doctor .
so at least i should be able to understand him.. thanks everyone .
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Thanks all.and silvergun
its working
That's great to hear Tom....keep up the good work! :thumbsup:
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I think this is applicable.........one of my favorite Tele uses of all time, and a great example of how music can create a feel:
Prelude / Royal albart HD edit... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiJrabG_VVo#ws)
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A Plexi channel on a Line6......geez :huh:
I have mixed feelings as I just repaired a Spider 112 Bogner version Line 6 last week - an easy $100!
Hey man,,,I'm cool with job security,,,,,,,,just not the extortion attempt that I was subjected to :icon_biggrin:.....
If I wanted to be on a Forum with guys who agreed with my wife, I'd find one about Dancing With The Stars
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I think this is applicable.........one of my favorite Tele uses of all time, and a great example of how music can create a feel:
Weak, weak, weak, plink, plink, plink......so typical.
Can you guess the modes on these?
Ritchie Blackmore - Greensleeves live 1976 HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTBZvtr-e-Q#ws)
Blackmore's night - Instrumental 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS4Wq2NB2FE#)
Jim
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Weak, weak, weak, plink, plink, plink......so typical.
Welll, I gues I couldn't expect a guy who would settle for a modeling amp to have any taste.......
Just another history lesson: (check the date)
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14274.0 (http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14274.0)
Just to show you that I don't have a problem with "the great one" or with everyone who plays a strat...........just the bully who would try to keep one of my students down with his emotional terrorism :angry:
And if you want to see a great example of some real talent:
Steve Morse Band - Live On Ohne Filter (HD) Part 2/2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfoK0hCMkr0#ws)
I've been Team Morse since he took 10 minutes out of his life after a 2 hour show to make sure I understood his synth rig :huh:, and then gave me a handful of pics, thanked me and my friend for coming to his show, and introduced us to Dave LaRue
Easy team to pick..........
I heard Ritchie once kicked a girlscout on his way into Madison Square garden,,,,so that's kinda cool,,,,but no comparison :icon_biggrin:
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Welll, I gues I couldn't expect a guy who would settle for a modeling amp to have any taste.......
he took 10 minutes out of his life after a 2 hour show to make sure I understood his synth rig
Why do I see a correlation in thought here.... Now now, those in glass houses! And if the shoe fits? That's why I suggested the Line6 for you!
I'm sorry, never been a Morse fan - pinch harmonic, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum....I mean ad obnoxious... And if you need 16 fuzz boxes into a preamp cranked 5150 to sound good? Hmmmm. Any girl scout can sound like they know what they are doing with that kind of mush. I do have to say that the Dregs sounded good - for about a song and a half. Don't know, never saw much imagination there. Same country lick over and over and over...and over maybe a little slower - like the pinch harmonics he is playing now. I have also met Steve. He did a clinic at a friend's music store. This was right before he got the call from Purple. He was a nice guy, he gave me a pick with his name on it. Since you are on the mighty Morse team, I WILL sell it to you! It came right from his hot sweaty hand! Make you a deal!
Bully? Emotional terrorism? Again, coming from someone who drew first blood, those in glass houses....inferior predecessor....pishaw... :l2:
Jim
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He was a nice guy, he gave me a pick with his name on it. Since you are on the mighty Morse team, I WILL sell it to you! It came right from his hot sweaty hand! Make you a deal!
No deal necessary,,,,that's the exact same pick (s) he gave me :huh: :grin:.............. :occasion14:
(he must have bought a gross/gross, knowing that he was even going to have to give them to guys like you)
I guess he just recognized then, that I 'm a nice guy too,,,,and gave me more (see pre-school above,, why change now)
I saw him hand guys that were a pain in the ass to talk to just one pick at a time,,,,,so draw you're own conclusions there :wink:
Every sound that came out of his amps that night was incredible,,,and the synth sound was one of many,,,where I just had to know what he was doing (most guys,,,,who just play strats through really loud amps,,,,,sound pretty much the same ,,,,BUT this guy was playing sax lines at the drop of a hat,,,,or lets say the drop of a Volume pedal that drove that entire signal......very cool--innovative approach)
Ritchie wore a couple cool hats on stage, but nothing else stands out to me as imaginative :laugh:
Morse was one of the only guys on the planet that could have filled Ritchie's shoes in Purple,,,but don't be mad at him because the shoes were actually a tight fit,,, and Steve streched them out to the point that R can't wear them anymore..
Anyway,,,,this thread was supposed to be about one nice guy doing something nice for another even nicer guy,,,so please save your Tele bashing for other, less important, more appropriate threads........that was the first blood---you started it!! :angry:
Don't know, never saw much imagination there
Well,,,,I guess sometimes it takes a little imagination to recognize some true imagination :w2:
If you would've seen the tour I saw(not just a clinic),,,,,,,you couldn't reasonably make that comment
I will agree that we disagree on this one,,,,,so I'm calling for a truce in the name of goodwill towards our mutual friend.....
If he's ever expected to learn this stuff, he will need the support of both of us.......you don't have to agree that Morse is obviously the better all-aroung guitarist, and I won't change my opinion either....DEAL?
Did you even have the decency to read that history lesson above?:
http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14274.0 (http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14274.0)
Peace,
Dave
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Anyway,,,,this thread was supposed to be about one nice guy doing something nice for another even nicer guy,,,so please save your Tele bashing for other, less important, more appropriate threads........that was the first blood---you started it!!
Lets just back up here Kemosabe... You started this thread and asked for feedback. I thought it was a great instructional course and was looking forward to the upcoming "chapters". The discussion sort-of took a turn to the application/philosophical side with the discussion about "Art". As a nice guy looking to contribute, I posted what I thought was a well thought out and articulated comment with an obvious tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek final statement to underline the point I was trying to make. It was you and 'Nit that jumped me and ran off the reservation with it - and now it is somehow my fault because I was standing by my man - who YOU brought up because he wasn't even mentioned in my post?!?!? Oh what a tangled web we weave and perceive. Hmmm, we are cool because I am done with this.
I am still looking forward to the next lesson.
For what it's worth, I know 'Nit. And he is NOT a nice guy! :wink: :grin:
Jim :m8
ps Please ignore the last comment as it is meant to be a: To tease (someone) good-humoredly, To make or exchange good-humored jokes or banter, A teasing or joking remark, Good-humored, playful conversation, etc., etc.,...... :dontknow:
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So, I guess what you're saying is that you agree with me 100% :icon_biggrin: :BangHead:
Anyway,,,,this thread was supposed to be about one nice guy doing something nice for another even nicer guy,,,
Well, I gotta admit,,,I only threw that card to try to make you feel bad
For what it's worth, I know 'Nit. And he is NOT a nice guy! :wink: :grin:
Well, honestly,,,neither am I ,,,,,but I'll bet you HE IS a nicer guy than me.....(see the pic of him fishing with his grandson)
I'm just some D!(k from Philadelphia (again,,,draw your own conclusions)
we are cool because I am done with this
OK,,,,so with that said:
'Nit,,,,if there's one thing I want you to take away from this conversation, it would be that this song is one of my all time favorite examples of how the minor scale can be used to create a mood........perfect touch and phrasing, combined with great tone = one of my biggest influences for incorporating modes/minor scales into my own playing
As I've said before,,,"every time I pick up the guitar I try to sound this good"........ give it the full 4 minutes of your attention,,,every note counts
Deep Purple - Wasted Sunsets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nAb9CfR8pE#)
Dave
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Scales are really collections of notes that sound good together on a specified root.
It is with great pride that I use a quote from PRR.......... :grin:
And I would like to add this : Chords and Scales are really collections of notes that sound good together on a specified root.
Please see the bottom portion of this lesson for a method that I use to "create chords" based on the patterns that I use for soloing...
I would like to take a minute and apologize to anyone who may have had their feelings hurt during the course of this thread,,,,it has taught me to stay focused on the original intent of the thread, so as to provide a comprehensive, coherent collection of thoughts,,,that can be referenced and followed by any and all who visit this forum :undecided:
I do appreciate everyone's input, and hope that this thread can serve as somewhat of a partial study of Modes...I also realize that by leaving out much of the Theory behind my approach, I may leave some people with a 1/2 understood lesson plan.........BUT, my intention was always to leave out the Theory, in an effort to make these lessons digestible for those who are blocked by the concepts of Theory and Harmony.
These lessons have been designed to "get you playing" modes and spark interest through inspiration,,,,,and let guitarists who are normally confined to boxes, begin to see (most of) the entire picture. :huh:
Here's #4:
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Thanks! I appreciate your help and sharing.
With respect, Tubenit
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Would you play this in mixolydian or aeolian?
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Would you play this in mixolydian or aeolian?
Well, if that's what you're thinking about while you're trying to learn this stuf,,,you're screw'd :icon_biggrin:
I'm pretty sure Steve Morse had to abstain from impure thought like that from the ages of 10-25
He probably just never put the guitar down long enough,,,,,or ever left his bedroom :m11 :sleepy2: :m11 :sleepy2: :m11 :sleepy2: :m11
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Though entertaining, that took a long time to get to lesson #4
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In Lesson #4 make sure you see that even though there are 7 potential patterns....they get squeezed into 5 TOTAL PATTERNS because of the 1/2 step relationships between E - F and B - C (see how the colored boxes overlap for those positions)
I want you to memorize the 5 patterns of A AEOLIAN and then be able to see how those patterns will still be relevant patterns in the other relative modes
And that is the whole point of this thread: those five "patterns" will always tie into each other the same way....BUT, you're 1st position pattern will change depending on what key you're in and what mode you want to use.....and then you will just "rotate" the rest of the patterns around that "new" first position.
Starting to see it? :huh:
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Yep, I see and knew it it's just that you're explaining what I already knew in a slightly different way. I know the patterns and their connection and sequence to each other. I simply lacked practicing them in a way that helped my mind to connect them when changing keys. I have been so programmed see them in the key of C/Am or G/Em that when the key changed to something else I will stuggle at times with it. More going down the fret board at times than going up.
But combined w/ my recent numbering of the pentatonic scales and where they each reside or sit inside of it's associated diatonic mode - it's helped me a lot to visualize these modes/patterns/scales much better in my mind's eye. It is especially helpful in keeping the modes/pattern relationships intact or how they are connected in the correct order as I play up and down the neck no matter which key I'm in.
This is really what I've already been working towards over the last year or so BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY to do it with some sort of backing track or chord progression in the background to also learn how to apply it with a sense of melody. Otherwise it's easily lost as just a lot of notes with no beginning or ending of a solo. I've known the "musical alphabet" and "basic grammar" for a long time but I've not developed the speaking part of things the way I should have for any number of reasons.
The last year or so I've realized this and have been trying to focus on developing & creating more of a way to phrase or say things better in the way I want to. It's not as easy as I would like it to be & I'm still not where I want it to be. But I know this is a process and everyone is on their own time schedule and learning curve. I think I will be striving for this improvement and ability the rest of my life. But, the main thing is that I've realized and come to terms with this understanding am developing an organized direction (finally) of what I must do to move forward down this musical path I'm on.
Thanks for all the help SG (& Willabe)! I still have more questions though on applications which was touched earlier regarding playing a certain mode over a given chord progression (not playing a simple C scale over a key of C chord progression) to invoke a different feel, mood, dissonance, or complexity.
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Thanks for all the help SG (& Willabe)! I still have more questions though on applications which was touched earlier regarding playing a certain mode over a given chord progression (not playing a simple C scale over a key of C chord progression) to invoke a different feel, mood, dissonance, or complexity.
I'll try to explain w/out guitar in hand. SG- going back to my chord progression example: A/// A/// G/// G/// D/F#/// G/// A/// A/// and repeat.
Pete Thorn said rather than play a solo over this using A ionian to try playing it using A mixolydian for a slightly different feel. (I hope I am remembering this correctly, does that sound right?)
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I'll try to explain w/out guitar in hand. SG- going back to my chord progression example: A/// A/// G/// G/// D/F#/// G/// A/// A/// and repeat.
Pete Thorn said rather than play a solo over this using A ionian to try playing it using A mixolydian for a slightly different feel. (I hope I am remembering this correctly, does that sound right?)
Yes, that would work because those 2 modes (Ionian / Mixolydian) are only different by one note (Mixolydian uses a b7),,,so the only time it may sound odd is if that note falls directly on a natural 7.....but music isn't always an exact science, and sometimes odd is what you might be going for.
Pete might have been saying instead of using Minor Pentatonic, use Mixolydian :dontknow: (G is in Min. Pent.)
In your example, the G (Major) chord would not naturally occur in the A Major (Ionian) scale, that's why that progression would be a great fit for Mixolydian (because G is the b7 in A major)....so actually, trying to play A Ionian over that progression would be introducing the natural 7th (which is G#),,,,which might sound odd
I tried to limit my examples to exact science so when someone who is learning this as brand new, tries my examples, they will always sound good (in key), because there won't be any odd notes in there......to me thats the best way to solidify this stuff...
Try this: (I emailed this to you, but not sure if you got it)
Change your chords to: | Em7 Dm A(add9) Em7 :| (or any chord that naturally appears in that combined position chart)
And play E Phrygian over it (use the same combined pattern chart in the above example,,,works because E Phr. is the 3rd mode of C Major)
See if you can hear that Spanish / haunting / awesomeness :icon_biggrin:
Then break out your nylon string and do it again!
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I had to go back and edit all of the Lessons because of one wrong dot that didn't belong in the combined position charts
I'm very disappointed that no one caught it :icon_biggrin: :l2:
This was the bad note:
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Using my example: So A mixolydian is the same as D ionian as far as "key" goes, and basically we could be jammin on the chords I gave you & I just think "play in the key of D major/B minor" - isn't that the same thing? Yes I could stay in the F# Phrygian position but then I'd be locked down in only that position. Can't that Spanish / haunting / awesomeness" be found as long as I simply stay in that same key no matter which mode on the neck I'm using? (this is where overthinking it can lead to paralysis for me). Or am I missing something???
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I had to go back and edit all of the Lessons because of one wrong dot that didn't belong in the combined position charts
I'm very disappointed that no one caught it :icon_biggrin: :l2:
This was the bad note:
I finally read & printed the 4 lessons out today while still doing normal work and trying to get a few questions answered in the meantime!!! Later this evening I'd have had more time to go over them. :laugh:
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Using my example: So A mixolydian is the same as D ionian as far as "key" goes, and basically we could be jammin on the chords I gave you & I just think "play in the key of D major/B minor" - isn't that the same thing?
Yes,,,that will help you with where the notes are.....
And you just create the Mixolydian feel by focusing on the A notes in your D major patterns........good thought :thumbsup:
I could stay in the F# Phrygian position but then I'd be locked down in only that position. Can't that Spanish / haunting / awesomeness" be found as long as I simply stay in that same key no matter which mode on the neck I'm using? (this is where overthinking it can lead to paralysis for me). Or am I missing something???
Bad thought :embarrassed: :wink:
The F# Phrygian "position" isn't just one position..........all of the other positions in D Ionian will work,,,it just helps to start on the F# root to get a feel for how the intervals react to F# as your root note (to create the Phrygian feel).....
I dont think you're missing anything,,,just maybe overthinking it....
You are creating the feel of the mode by rooting your phrasing around the root of the mode.....regardless of what position you are in..
It's the way the intervals change in reference to the root note that creates the feel.....you can use any of the correct positions, it's just easier to tell you to start on the F# Phrygian first position
And when I'm practicing just trying to see how the mode feels,,,I just stay in that first position because it's easy, and i'm just trying to hear the effect of the Mode :icon_biggrin:
Good luck Buddy, and please keep asking questions :grin:
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SG, I like your wanting to give back. You are doing a fine job. Like Brad, I once used numbering and now I do not have to. There are lots of people who will play something technically correct because they know it is, no matter what it sounds like. Some like it and some do not. I am guilty of playing a lot of wasted notes in the past. I learned theory after I learned guitar. I learned guitar playing chord forms and the notes contained in them, always playing with the change. This was before the internet and if we learned something new, like a chord, I would run down the street to a friends house and show him and then we would figure out how to put it in a song.
Even though I did get the opportunity to learn "the modes", I still think in terms of chord position for phrasing.
There may not be any rules, but most popular music is very simple. To be a great player is simple as well. All you have to do is be on time, know the material and realize you are just a guitar player. After a few beers all most people hear is Rhythm anyway. I no longer think in terms of "lead" as I am usually phrasing from a chord position. I am just someone who plays a riff while the singer catches their breath.
I do miss the 80's music when we were just shredding.
Keep up the work guys. I am sure I will learn something new.