MODES for regular Joe's

[SILVERGUN]

As a result of a recent thread involving a unique scale, I thought I would offer up some help for anyone who has a block when it comes to understanding modes. (specifically the modes of the major scale)
I will try to keep the focus narrowed to the one specific breakthrough I had that involves seeing the patterns / positions of the major scale, and how they "link" together to form the patterns that cover the fretboard.
My ah-ha moment came when I realized that all of the patterns / positions remained constant throughout ALL of the modes of the Major scale!
So if you already know the fingerings for the Major or Minor Scales---then you already know the fingerings/patterns for ALL of the modes of the Major scale.
It's just which pattern you choose to "form" around your root note that will determine which mode you are using...

What separates the individual mode types is determined by which pattern you use in reference to the root note or key you are playing in, and you choose a specific mode to create a feeling or mood....that's it,,,that's why you would want to use a mode----to convey a feeling

***DISCLAIMER***I am not a music teacher and do not claim to have all the answers, BUT, this thread is intended to help guys who may have less knowledge than me,,,,and I would like to offer them this "simpler" way to look at the big picture,,,without involving music theory,,,,BUT instead speaking in terms of patterns and fingering on the fretboard,,,and how you can incorporate modes to spice up your playing,,,without spending too much time studying the equations that justify the scales

I'll try to keep this as simple as possible,,,and I promise you that if you can understand this, it can make a difference in your playing

I will use this web page / site for visual reference:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/guitar_modes.html

[Tom_Hull]

ohh my ......i just started playing guitar . and i play many hours a day , but i really know nothing , just play by sometype of scale sound.

this is great .
i wanted to quite playing guitar after hearing all this  music .. and just listen instead as i have for years,its so great sounding....

but now ,,,,,,,,,,this really is nice of you ..

tom

[SILVERGUN]

OK guys try this on for size:

[SILVERGUN]

This guy does a great job of summing up quickly how you can relate each mode to the minor pentatonic scale you probably already know:

Learning the modes on guitar

[SILVERGUN]

Here's the 7 playing excerpts from Frank Gambale's "Modes---No more Mystery" video, that really helped me figure this out:

Frank Gambale Modes no more mystery Examples

[SILVERGUN]

Here's a great explanation from the same Frank video:

Gambale Modes

[PRR]

A lot of this stuff is obfuscated by fretboard or piano keyboard.

Cut all the blacks and whites off a piano. You will see that every note is the same size, 12 equal sticks per octave.

Pick your root note.

Find your intervals, chords, nodes, or other patterns.

They are all the same relative to the different root notes you start from.

If you are playing in B, and someone bumps the piano 3/4", you are playing in B-flat.

Each string on the fretboard has this same property. (Well, the frets get closer together as notes get higher, but not the abrupt way a piano tucks black sticks between white sticks.)

Find a fingering for B. If someone bumps the guitar one fret you are in B-flat. Or D bumped the other way two frets is C.

Ted Dunbar wrote a semi-mystic fret book. Way beyond me. I recall some of his students really dug it, and others used it in the toilet. It is out of print, not easy to find.

[SILVERGUN]

If there is any interest in this thread, please don't hesitate to ask questions, and I will continue posting

I created Lesson 1 from scratch and there are plenty of resources on YouTube.......so before I create another "lesson", I just want to make sure I'm not wasting my time

If you already know the minor pentatonic scale and would just like to break out of it a little,,,DON'T MISS THE VIDEO IN REPLY#3 ON THIS THREAD

[G._Hoffman]

If you want to understand theory as it relates to guitars, get Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist."  It did me more good than six years at Berklee (though I really only took a couple years of guitar lessons there, having spent more time on songwriting and Music Production).  It is easily my favorite resource for learning guitar.  Even after twenty years, I can usually get something interesting from it, if I pick it up.


Gabriel

[SILVERGUN]

Thanks Gabriel, I had never seen that book.....
I intended this thread to be a reference for guys who don't have any theory training .....so if you can think of anything else, please pile on...

I'm going to create lesson #2 on Mon. and try to explain in simple terms how all of these patterns and fingerings are all the same in an effort to take some of the mystery  / intimidation factor away from what is really a simple theory, clouded by confusion

One little breakthrough for someone could lead to a huge improvement in their playing,,,,or at least their options

[tubenit]

Silvergun,

OK, this is pretty cool stuff and is helpful in making sense of it to me.  Ironically, I am realizing that I have been doing some (limited degree) of this already in my playing.  I'd "hear it" & then just play it not knowing it was a scale.

I was thinking of it as the pentatonic with half steps ............................   didn't know that there were scales that defined that already.
 

I am going to keep up with your posts and review them.  To be honest,  if you want to go ahead and post everything now ........... that's fine.  I also would be interested in you maybe just posting a lesson each week instead all at once.

As of now, I plan to read all of this and watch the videos. But I know also that I can get on overload with this stuff pretty quick which has been my perpetual downfall in this.

THANKS for posting it.  I drew out the dorian stuff, phyrgian and aeolian and will start practicing those three.

with respect, Jeff 

[Willabe]

A lot of this stuff is obfuscated by fretboard or piano keyboard.

Cut all the blacks and whites off a piano. You will see that every note is the same size, 12 equal sticks per octave.

Pick your root note.

Find your intervals, chords, nodes, or other patterns.

They are all the same relative to the different root notes you start from.

If you are playing in B, and someone bumps the piano 3/4", you are playing in B-flat.

Each string on the fretboard has this same property. (Well, the frets get closer together as notes get higher, but not the abrupt way a piano tucks black sticks between white sticks.)

Find a fingering for B. If someone bumps the guitar one fret you are in B-flat. Or D bumped the other way two frets is C.

1>2>3>4>5>6>7>8/1
C>D>E>F>G>A>B>C
D>E>F>G>A>B>C>D

But what just happened?

The half steps and whole steps between the notes just moved. So their relationship with respect to the 1 is different. That's why the scale sounds different.

1 > 2  > 3 > 4 > 5 > 6 >M7 > 8/1  (The 3'rd is natural, Major 7'th)
C > D > E > F > G > A > B > C
   ^    ^    ^   ^     ^    ^    ^
   W   W    h   W     W   W    h
           m3                      b7
1 > 2 > 3 > 4  > 5 > 6 > M7 > 8/1
D > E > F > G > A > B > C > D
   ^    ^    ^    ^    ^    ^    ^
   W    h    W    W   W    h    W                Edit; Fixed 3 to m3 and M7 to b7, sorry guys.

Now transposed to C;

1 > 2 >m3 > 4  > 5 > 6 > b7 > 8/1   (The 3'rd is minor, flat 7'th)
C > D > Eb > F > G > A > Bb > C
   ^    ^     ^    ^    ^     ^     ^
   W    h     W    W   W     h     W

The formula for a Major scale is = 2 whole steps, 1 half step, 3 whole steps, 1 half step.

Start on any fret or key (on a keyboard) use this formula and you will play a Major scale in the key of the note you started on.

All scales have their own make up of half/whole steps (formula) that you can do this with.

I drew out the dorian stuff, phrygian and aeolian and will start practicing those three.

If you draw out the modes like I just did all transposed to C you can then see what the notes have become with respect to the root 1. You'll find some minor 3'rds, flated 7'th, flat 5's, suspended 4'ths, flat 6'ths, suspended 2'nds, etc. These are the notes in the chords made from their home scale that do the work, anything above them, 9's, 11's, 13's are only color.
          
It's much easier to see in the key of C. When I first did this it realy opened things up for me.


                Brad        

[SILVERGUN]

Nice work T,
It's great to see you reaching out for new heights ......very inspirational to me  
I kinda take this stuff for granted, and I'm proud to have something to share

I love your playing style and I have heard those elements in your playing....I have heard you mention before that you would like to learn more of the ins and outs of it all, and I would be proud to know that I helped 1%

The Frank video above that has playing examples of all 7 modes, gives a great overview of the different moods that can be created

I don't have a ton of lessons, but I will try to stick to the one big breakthrough of "seeing" how they all intertwine,,,,and how just by knowing the Major or Minor scale, you will be abe to "see" the fingering patterns for each mode

I never have used them all, and you basically just choose them to suit your taste,,,and I have a feeling that the 3 you chose will suit you fine
(the Aeolian is the natural minor scale, and that also corresponds with the scale that Doug suggested, so you are on the right track)

I'm still trying to figure out how to word it,,, to make a complicated subject understandable.......stay tuned

[Willabe]

SG the 1'st link you posted in this thread has exactly what I'm talking about. I couldn't copy and paste the chart he has in it but I was able to get parts of it and patch it together. I added a few notes also.

It's important to know the notes value in the scale so you know what your playing and where to resolve to over each chord and chord section/group. Certain notes you want to keep going to as main points of voicing against the chords. Others we use more sparcley more like passing tones. You may want to accent notes like a b9 or m3 or M7, etc over a chord that contains 1 or more of thoes notes. You can do it by ear but it's easier if you know what the chords built with and the values of the notes in the sacle that those chords are built from.

Plus guys like Larry Carlton aren't playing songs that stay in 1 single key through all the sections and/or groups of chords they're made of. They know how to disect the chords/groupings of chords to find the scales to play over the sections and how to bridge those sections together in their lead going from 1 section to the next.  

The best guys I played with when I used to play out all knew the number values of the notes in the scale, the chord and in the songs chord progression. I've had guys a few times stand in front of the stage when I was trying to play a song that the band leader called on stage and counted off, that I didn't know. They where holding up/down fingers in real time with the song trying to tell me the chords to play. 2 fingers up for M2, 3 fingers down for m3, etc. But I didn't know them well enough to play them in key we were in and pull it off on the fly. Bass players and horn players know this stuff inside out too.  

Let's add the 9's, 11's and 13 which can be natural, sharp or flat which are octives of the 2, 4 and 6.

1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13  
                          ^  ^  ^  ^  ^  ^            
                          1   2  3   4  5   6

I   Cmaj7     1 2 3 4 5 6 7         (natural 3'rd, Major 7'th)

Ionian         C D E F G A B

                
II  Dm7        1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7     (minor 3'rd, flat 7'th)

Dorian          D E F G A B C

                
III  Em7       1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7     (b2 = b9, plus you can't play a b2 next to root 1,
                                                   the b6'th = augmented/raised/sharp 5'th)   
   
Phrygian       E F G A B C D


IV Fmaj7      1 2 3 #4 5 6 7    (#4 = b5)

Lydian          F G A B C D E


V  G7           1 2 3 4 5 6 b7    (natural 3'rd, flat 7'th, dominant 7th scale/chord)

Myxolydian   G A B C D E F


VI  Am7        1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7   ( this is the relative minor scale of the 1'st root note, but it has a
                                                b6 added where the dorian has a natural 6'th) 
Aeolian         A B C D E F G


VII  Bm7b5   1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Locrian          B C D E F G A


             Brad      

[Willabe]

The chords are built from major and minor 3'rds from the root scale. How many major and or minor 3'rds and the order their in starting with the root/1 of the chord is what gives the chord it's voice feeling wise.

2 whole steps = major 3'rd interval and 1 whole step and a 1/2 step (3 half steps) = minor 3'rd interval.

(The way I'd probable look at this scale is as a  mb7b9 scale with a b6 thrown in for extra spice? But it is a natural mode so?    )

Lets find the natural chord forms built from the phrygian mode;

Transposed to key of C;

III  Em7       1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7    
Phrygian       C Db Eb F G Ab Bb

1 = Cm7      C Eb G Bb     (1 b3 5 b7)
                  
2 = DbM7     Db F Ab C      
                   C  E  G  B     (1 3 5 M7)
                  
3 = EbM7     Eb G Bb D
                   C  E  G  B     (1 3 5 M7)
                  
4 =  Fm7      F Ab C Eb
                   C Eb G Bb    (1 m3 5 b7)                

5 = Gm7b5   G Bb Db F                      
                   C  Eb Gb Bb (1 b3 b5 b7)
                
6 = Ab7b5    Ab C Eb G
                   C   E Gb Bb  (1 3 b5 b7)

7 = Bbm7    Bb Db F Ab    
                   C   Eb G Bb  (1 b3 5 b7)


Every mode will have it's own set of chords built from it's scale. I've got all this stuff in books somewhere but it's very good practice to learn to transpose and work this stuff out on your own. I'm very rusty at this. Helps greatly to have access to a keyboard when you transpose the scales/chords.


               Brad    

[SILVERGUN]

Hey Willabe,
I'm with you 100% here.....
You got it, I got it,,,,,and I'm hoping to make these explanations so easy to understand, that anyone will be able to come here and get it..
Your last posts are accurate,,,and should be known, and are a great reference to backup my approach of fretboard vizualization
Of course everyone teaches a little differently, and we are teaching the same thing,,,just from different angles

My next lesson post will begin to fill in the blanks, and I'm going to stick to the theme of Key Of C Major (because that is the obvious choice and it will keep in line with where we have begun) so your posted equations are relevant...

I'm trying to imagine what it's like to have NO music theory, but still want to apply the modes to your playing
I don't want to go over anyone's head.......
My fretboard vizualization breakthrough was a huge moment for me,,,and if you've never looked at it this way, it may even broaden your options for improvisation! (it could also be sooo obvious and simple that you guys will be saying "is that it"..."well of course I knew that") I'm hoping it helps someone!

For the moment,,,throw the music theory out the window, and try to follow my next post.....
Please help me make it more digestible for the guys who are looking for a quick way to add some spice to their playing.
I'll be able to get it done tomorrow from behind my desk.

100% respectfully,
Dave

[Willabe]

approach of fretboard visualization

That's the problem with a guitar you can't see it as easy, especially at first, as with a keyboard in the key of C _ _ other than dots that make up a block pattern.

I'm going to stick to the theme of Key Of C Major (because that is the obvious choice and it will keep in line with where we have begun) so your posted equations are relevant...

Transposing to C is relevant because the notes on a keyboard are laid out in a row and all white keys with sharps and flats highlighted in black. Now you can see what you hear that's going on and why, when you move a note or play a different scale.

This is why with a fretted instrument where your playing movable patterns up and down the neck to change keys they throw out the note letters and go with the notes interval numbers. A keyboard is different because there are no movable patterns, every scale is a different pattern or form in every key. But even they are still thinking numbers.

I had a friend who played for Etta James for a while years ago and he told me 1 time that when she would rehearse her band she would tell him sometimes try a b7... chord instead here and try a .... chord here. She did not play any instrument but still she knew jazz voiced chords and what she would tell him to try he said was right. Said he learned a lot from her.             Why did she know what chords to substitute and where?      

If you major in music in collage, no matter what instrument you major with, they make you minor in piano.          

(At least they used to.     )

When I look at the fretboard of a guitar I don't see the block dot pattern of the scale and chords but instead I see numbers. The 1, b3'rd, 5, b7, all those numbers move and stay the same with the pattern so it's not a lot to learn. 1 scale, 1 set of numbers. It's the blue print for the fretboard both layout and parts values. You can't be thinking, A, F#, Bb, D, etc... All those letters change in every scale. Now that is a lot to memorize.

All dots tell you is that your playing notes that are in the scale, but that's all they tell you. I've had guitar teachers who when they wrote out a scale or chord in tab they used the interval numbers where the dots would go instead.

I'm trying to imagine what it's like to have NO music theory, but still want to apply the modes to your playing

For the moment,,,throw the music theory out the window,

I don't want to go over anyone's head.......

Sorry, and I mean this with all respect, but that dog won't hunt. What I've posted are the first steps in the most basic theory, it don't get any easier than this.

Think about it, All the modes are built on this, it's where they come from. It's how they found them. Major and minor 3'rds, nothing more.

You can't do algebra (Jazz) or calculus (BeBop) if you can't add, subtract, multiply and divide.

Once you try and get past the major and minor block pattern scales on guitar you've just stepped up in harmony and there's no way to organize it any more to be able to apply it very well if at all.

Please help me make it more digestible for the guys who are looking for a quick way to add some spice to their playing.

Ringo Starr, "Got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues and you know it don't come easy"

Of course everyone teaches a little differently, and we are teaching the same thing,,,just from different angles

Well yes and no.

What your showing us is right as far as I understand music (which is not really all that much) but IMO you need to show both sides of the coin. That's what I was trying to add. I don't think it muddied up the waters by adding it.

I'm enjoying what your posting and will keep reading this thread with interest my friend. I'll bow out now and leave the full direction and pace of this to you as it's in good hands.  


              Brad      

[G._Hoffman]

Thanks Gabriel, I had never seen that book.....
I intended this thread to be a reference for guys who don't have any theory training .....so if you can think of anything else, please pile on...

I'm going to create lesson #2 on Mon. and try to explain in simple terms how all of these patterns and fingerings are all the same in an effort to take some of the mystery  / intimidation factor away from what is really a simple theory, clouded by confusion

One little breakthrough for someone could lead to a huge improvement in their playing,,,,or at least their options

At some point, I became something of a theory reductionist, looking at most things as simple interactions of triads, so I'm afraid that me trying to teach theory in more conventional terms isn't much use. 

In the end, the only really important purpose of theory is as a language to help musicians understand each other.  Well, that, and to open up your ears to new ideas that people ignorant of theory never really seem to learn.


Gabriel

[tubenit]

Please help me make it more digestible for the guys who are looking for a quick way to add some spice to their playing.

+1 & thanks!

To give some feedback from someone who doesn't understand this stuff at all .......................

I played the pentatonic scale for yrs before I knew it had a name.  So then I figured out that if it's a blues tune in A , I play the pentatonic in A.  However, if it's country or folk ........... then I play the same pentatonic in F#.  If it's a swing or traditional old time rock and roll, then I can alternate between playing that scale in A and/or F# on the same tune. (in my head, I hear exceptions to this but that's kinda how I think about it).

Given that pentatonic stuff as my reference point, what Silvergun is conveying meets me at my level of incompetence.  AND I can also understand bits and pieces of Willabe's instruction. And I can see that being useful and essential in getting this stuff. For example, thinking of it as numbers 1 thru 7 was very helpful.  Having said that, going thru Silvergun's stuff first is a very helpful transitional step right now.  

Willabe, if you're open to it & are willing to support it .............  Maybe let Silvergun post a few more lessons & then if you're OK with it .........  I might edit your posts to follow in sequence  AND then you can add some more lessons also?

What do you guys think?  Does that sound OK?  I want to learn and hear from both of you but the sequence of Silvergun's to Willabe's might be the most useful transition for others (like me) that don't have a clue about this stuff?

I truly value what both of you are posting but the sequence "feels" important to my understanding it.

And please don't delete anything you've posted, it's all good stuff.

IF we can get this thread done as a useful basic lesson foundation ................... then maybe I can edit it and place it into ARCHIVES?

With respect,    Jeff

[SILVERGUN]

What do you guys think?  Does that sound OK?  I want to learn and hear from both of you but the sequence of Silvergun's to Willabe's might be the most useful transition for others (like me) that don't have a clue about this stuff?
I truly value what both of you are posting but the sequence "feels" important to my understanding it.
And please don't delete anything you've posted, it's all good stuff.
IF we can get this thread done as a useful basic lesson foundation ................... then maybe I can edit it and place it into ARCHIVES?

I think that is all a great idea.....In all honesty Tubenit IS the guy I'm here for, and any one like him, who may feel like their playing options are limited by their knowledge........when I was out of work I used to give guitar lessons,,,,and kinda learned what makes some guys eyes roll back in their head....(talk of numbers, intervals, circle of fifths, relative keys  )
I'm sure there will be a few guys who are intimidated by all of this theory, and thats why I keep hammering the simple theme...
I know right where T is coming from and the tips are aimed right at my estimation of his level of theory comprehension..............
And I definitely see the benefit of this being a combined effort.....there are going to be things that I am going to miss, and Willabe is filling in all of the blanks, with excellent material that will be needed for reference,,,,,,,,,,so absolutely yes, I would love to create a thread that could possibly help many,,,and for now I'll settle for one that will hopefully help one guy reach his goals...

At some point, I became something of a theory reductionist

And that's the one thing to keep in mind,,,,,,you can know everything under the sun, BUT if you can't apply it, it's painful!!!
I've never used a couple of these modes in practical playing, because they are just not practical for my playing style
BUT, the "trick" I'm going to show here will apply to ALL of them by default,,,because it's just one big circular thought process of picturing patterns

[Willabe]

Willaby, if you're open to it & are willing to support it .............  Maybe let Silvergun post a few more lessons & then if you're OK with it .........  I might edit your posts to follow in sequence  AND then you can add some more lessons also?

If you want to understand theory as it relates to guitars, get Mick Goodrick's "The Advancing Guitarist."  It did me more good than six years at Berklee (though I really only took a couple years of guitar lessons there, having spent more time on songwriting and Music Production).  

Actually sounds like Gabriel probable would be the go to guy on this since he went to Berklee. Songwriting counts in theory of harmony rules.    

I'm enjoying what your posting and will keep reading this thread with interest my friend. I'll bow out now and leave the full direction and pace of this to you as it's in good hands.  

That's fine Jeff.... as long as you don't erase any of the original post till it's a finished blend where/if needed that's helpful? (Other wise it should stand on it's own as written.)

PRR brought up the bump thing and he's right. I just expanded on it.

If you use a laser level each time you set it up on a tripod to use it you have to get a new reference "O" point. If you bump the tripod that "O" reference point just changed. Got to start again with a new "O" and don't bump the tripod this time until your done!      

At some point, I became something of a theory reductionist, looking at most things as simple interactions of triads

I could be wrong but I think Gabriel is talking about chord progressions that use extended complex chords hence the reference to going back to finding the triads?

And that's the one thing to keep in mind,,,,,,you can know everything under the sun, BUT if you can't apply it, it's painful!!!

This is what I'm trying to add in a simple way, how to apply it needs the why.

On guitar with scale and mode patterns even though the block "dot" pattern looks the same their really not because the "O" reference point, root note has been moved. So now all the half step/whole step intervals between the notes in the scale/mode with respect to the 1 or root tone just moved. Same thing for all the major 3'rd, minor 3'rd intervals for the chords. That's why they sound different, have a different color to them.

Without referencing to a new "O" and numbering the rest of the notes with respect to that "O" your just noodling around in the scale/mode. In the short term you have some fun, which is fine, but your not really getting anywhere. In the long term what I'm trying to add, "the other side of the coin" in this will get you somewhere faster and you will have way more fun.

None of this is new. They saw these things in the scales/modes and chords from the beginning of music and as they figured them out ("saw" the relationships or rules of harmony) they organized them to teach with and use when playing/writing. These relationships or rules of harmony apply to all instrument. Nothing new under the sun.

It's said that guitar is one of the easiest instruments to pick up and learn to play just a little bit,  but one of the hardest to master. I think that's very true.

Lets see the Troggs guitar player ("Wild Thing") versus a guitar player like Larry Carlton?

Hmmm......                        

Like I keep saying guitars, Meh!  Gimme one of these,    
              

                                  Brad      

[SILVERGUN]

Sorry, and I mean this with all respect, but that dog won't hunt. What I've posted are the first steps in the most basic theory, it don't get any easier than this.
Think about it, All the modes are built on this, it's where they come from. It's how they found them. Major and minor 3'rds, nothing more.
You can't do algebra (Jazz) or calculus (BeBop) if you can't add, subtract, multiply and divide.
Once you try and get past the major and minor block pattern scales on guitar you've just stepped up in harmony and there's no way to organize it any more to be able to apply it very well if at all.
What your showing us is right as far as I understand music (which is not really all that much) but IMO you need to show both sides of the coin. That's what I was trying to add. I don't think it muddied up the waters by adding it.
I'm enjoying what your posting and will keep reading this thread with interest my friend. I'll bow out now and leave the full direction and pace of this to you as it's in good hands.

Sorry,,,I can't keep up with the posts here, but I just want Willabe to know that I have a ton of respect for you,,,,,and I'm trying to devise a simple plan to show 1 revelation that could help someone.......If I wasn't at work,,,,I might actually be able to accomplish that goal.

See you in a little while,,,the boss is in today

[Willabe]

See you in a little while,,,the boss is in today

Hey don't get in trouble at work because of a fool like me.

You can straighten me out latter.


               Brad     

[Zipslack]

I don't claim to know a lot of theory.  In fact, I've forgotten most of what I used to know (you reach a point where it's more fun just to play than think).  Modes have always bothered me because it seemed like a silly distinction that was mainly useful for composing.  If you take a G major scale (Ionian mode) and manually work-out the mode patterns all the way up the neck, that will help more than trying to memorize them.  The modes, for me, mainly let me "see" the pattern of notes all the way up the neck.  The thing that got me stuck was that it's all the same notes.  The A-Dorian is still the G-major (Ionian), just starting from a different tone - still the same 7 notes.  Where things really started to "gel" was when a keyboard player mentioned playing different modes over the same root.  

Play an A-minor (JamMan pedals are good for this).  Play over it using the A-Dorian mode pattern.  Then use the Phrygian mode with A as the root.  Then play using the Aeolian mode starting with A as the root.  I think Gambale's video would have been better if he had used the same rhythm for the demonstrations.  Now go back and do the same thing with the "major" modes over a repeating major chord.  It should help to make the modes more distinct.  Then see how the Pentatonic scale "sits" inside these modes like the previous video showed.  I don't think about intervals while I'm playing/improvising - I use the mode patterns as a "roadmap" of notes that I can safely play with.

From what I gather, using the same scale all the way through a progression is what jazz guys will refer to as "playing through the changes", while changing up modes based on the chords/progression is referred to as "playing with the changes".  I probably need to dig out some books and go back and actually learn proper theory, but this gets me by.

[Willabe]

BTW, all you blues harp players, the modes are what they call "positions" in blues harp. Same thing.

A 10 hole diatonic harmonica is tuned to a major scale.

So in 1'st position with a C harp your in the key of C major. This is the 1'st mode = Ionian

Bob Dylan, Neil Young and Springsteen play in this position mostly. Jimmy Reed (blues player) played all the high notes in this position as did all the old blues harp players because you can bend the high notes/reeds in this position.

4'th position is the most used position for blues/rock/R&B. So if the song is in the key of C you play a F harp, a 4'th above the root. This is the 4'th mode = Lydian.

3'rd position is for a m7 song. Song is in key of C You play a Bb harp, a whole step below the root. This is the Dorian mode.

6'th position, you can also play minor key blues in this position as this is the relative minor of the root key. Not many old blues players knew this could be done, but some did. Song is in the key of C you play an A harp, 6'th above the root. This is the 6'th mode = Aeolian mode.

You can play in all the modes as positions on a 10 hole diatonic harp.

It's all the same thing and you can bet your bottom dollar the old harp players didn't know the classical names for the modes/positions but they knew they worked, well they knew at least some of them.


               Brad         

[Willabe]

The thing that got me stuck was that it's all the same notes.  The A-Dorian is still the G-major (Ionian), just starting from a different tone - still the same 7 notes.

I don't think about intervals while I'm playing/improvising - I use the mode patterns as a "roadmap" of notes that I can safely play with.

This is why they number the notes, to see the tonal weight against each other and over/against the chords. The pattern is the road but the numbers are the road signs telling you where your at so you can decide where you want to go.

Where things really started to "gel" was when a keyboard player mentioned playing different modes over the same root.

Play an A-minor (JamMan pedals are good for this).  Play over it using the A-Dorian mode pattern.  Then use the Phrygian mode with A as the root.  Then play using the Aeolian mode starting with A as the root.  I think Gambale's video would have been better if he had used the same rhythm for the demonstrations.  Now go back and do the same thing with the "major" modes over a repeating major chord.  It should help to make the modes more distinct.  Then see how the Pentatonic scale "sits" inside these modes like the previous video showed.

Yes.


               Brad    

[jojokeo]

Thanks SG & Brad for all the time & info help.

Even though I know all of the major/minor/pentatonic scales I had (& sometimes still do) get thrown off when changing different keys. I can connect them together but there's two things that happen w/ in various keys:
1 - The distance between one mode from another especially when going several away can become problematic (which fret to put the mode/scale on)
2 - When the above is happening I tend to move up or down an mode at a time but then the playing becomes more "scale oriented" rather that melodic and/or musical.

So I've created and forced myself to number them. This has helped a lot. I don't know if this is "correct" but I'd call the basic Am pentatonic #1, and the rest are numbered from there. It's not a perfect system but it's helped me a lot to "think less" about scale & placements and more on the melody/improv for soloing if that makes any sense?

[Willabe]

So I've created and forced myself to number them. This has helped a lot. I don't know if this is "correct" but I'd call the basic Am pentatonic #1, and the rest are numbered from there. It's not a perfect system but it's helped me a lot to "think less" about scale & placements and more on the melody/improv for soloing if that makes any sense?

Yes and it's correct.

That's how all the pentatonic scales I was taught by teachers and saw in books where numbered. They're conecting and overlaping.

There's 5 position patterns up/down the neck from open low E (root) to the 12'th fret/octave or since their movable patterns at the fret/root/1 on the low string you start at, up to the octave of that root note, where the patterns start over again.

Even though I know all of the major/minor/pentatonic scales I had (& sometimes still do) get thrown off when changing different keys. I can connect them together but there's two things that happen w/ in various keys:
1 - The distance between one mode from another especially when going several away can become problematic (which fret to put the mode/scale on)
2 - When the above is happening I tend to move up or down an mode at a time but then the playing becomes more "scale oriented" rather that melodic and/or musical.

Don't move, stay over the same frets. Just play the new modes pattern # position that fits over the same frets.

Unless you have to move becaues you need the notes to line up over the frets/strings for double stops/bends, just stay there.

Some things you can play in any of the 5 positions but, some things you can only play in 1 or maybe 2 of those 5 positions.

You know what I'm talking about here.


                           Brad      

[SILVERGUN]

It took me a while to cut and paste and add the text, and think of how to word it,,,but I'm happy with this as a 2nd lesson

[jojokeo]

Very nice SG. Could I trouble you -when you have time of course - to make one of these labling the Am pentatonic as #1 on up through the 5 positions and/or another one starting w/ Em pentatonic.
Then to right, the corresponding 7note major scale that overlays on each of the 5 positions? I like to intertwine the two scales this way. Then when changing keys w/in the song or for chord changes it helps with this number system. Calling scales phrygian, ionian, a-holian, etc...just makes things unneccessarily hard and complex than need be. Simply thinking of one of these modes by the "scale #" helps immensely quicken things up especially when playing live. That's why the numbering system helped me much more. My head's got enough info rattling around in there, lol - and I hate those freaking names too.

[SILVERGUN]

Very nice SG. Could I trouble you -when you have time of course - to make one of these labling the Am pentatonic as #1 on up through the 5 positions and/or another one starting w/ Em pentatonic.

Anything for you, my friend......just glad to see someone is reading this stuff

[SILVERGUN]

Very nice SG. Could I trouble you -when you have time of course - to make one of these labling the Am pentatonic as #1 on up through the 5 positions and/or another one starting w/ Em pentatonic.
Then to right, the corresponding 7note major scale that overlays on each of the 5 positions?

Is this what you wanted jojo?...I wasn't 100% clear from your description....I can clean it up if it's right

[jojokeo]

  Thank you! Pretty much yes. I just hand finished this also before seeing your post. I will scan it in a bit to show you what I'm talking about. This was a good excercise for me to do and something I've been meaning/wanting to do for a little while. I only started my numbering system w/in the last year for the pentatonic scale and I wasn't sure which scale to call #1 or #3 or what! Paralysis sort of set in which didn't help. What I've been trying to do is call out the scale # in my head & immediately go to the correct fret w/ the associated pattern. Unlearning old habits from many years and trying to create the new ones has been more of a battle that realized. But, it gets better, easier, and more fluid as time goes on. I should've done this a long time ago but I guess everyone has to "digest" it in their own way at their own speed. I never really had much true formal training & if it wasn't for the internet or my late father I don't know where I'd be.

One of the times I was swallowing my ego & pride to "start completely over" was when I met a guy named Tony Rizzi. I was getting personal lessons from him sight reading, pick training, chord construction, etc. before he fell off a ladder at his home & ended up passing away. He was the first guitar sight reading musician in the LA (Calif) music scene in the big band era waaaaay back in the day where he could adapt music scores with guitar. He was highly sought after because of this. He personally took Tommy Tedesco under his wing and taught & told him he needed to do this/read & write to be truely successful and the rest is history for his huge success. Tony played small local clubs & pubs in his semi-retirement and always played with George Van Eps along with others like Stan Kenton and many others. A true guitar pioneer & could pull off some unbelieveable runs and some really quirky and funny things too. I met him originally at one of the local junior colleges nearby & he was my teacher there for several semesters in the '80s. He did many studio, movie, & TV show recordings besides big band stuff and I was told recorded the guitar for Batman, The Munsters, & many others along with being the guy behind the curtain for the Smothers Brothers Show, & others too.

[tubenit]

That's fine Jeff.... as long as you don't erase any of the original post till it's a finished blend where/if needed that's helpful?

I will honor that request.

Not sure what to do??????????

Brad, your stuff is soooooooooo far advanced (in regards to where I am)  that I understand probably less than 1/10th of it (if that much). I say that not as a criticism of your posts or knowledge, but simply an honest statement of my lack of knowledge and severe incompetence.

I'll need to see what unfolds and ponder an idea of maybe starting a whole new thread with Silvergun's stuff first and then post your stuff following?  Sort of a cut and paste approach?

With respect, Jeff

[Willabe]

2'nd Edit;

(Brad  - don't even worry about anything, it's all good. We should all be able to take a little ribbing. I know you're always coming from a good place)

Ahh, resolve in harmony, thank you JoJo.


             Brad    

[Willabe]

I'll need to see what unfolds and ponder an idea of maybe starting a whole new thread with Silvergun's stuff first and then post your stuff following?  Sort of a cut and paste approach?

That's fine Jeff, SG will keep it growing as he has time and I'll lay back. And if I can add anything latter that would be of help, fine. (I don't want him getting in trouble at work trying to move it forward too fast because of me. No, No, No. )

SG is doing a great job and I think I see/understand what he's going for and I think it's great.

Jeff, your hearts desire to edit and organize for all of us to have access to learn at this forum is as always a more than generous thing.


                    Brad    

[PRR]

Scales are really collections of notes that sound good together on a specified root.

Half/Whole steps are an artificial. IMHO there should only be steps, with a lot of 2-step gaps in musical scales. But too late to fight that fight.

For that matter: the 12 notes per octave is artificial. The octave is truth. The simple intervals are truth. When you start combining them, with high pitch accuracy, you arrive at notes that are very close but not identical. For the simpler intervals you find 12 clusters per octave. If you want free choice of root note, there's no better "fix" than the a-musical equal-temper.

> Transposing to C is relevant because the notes on a keyboard are laid out in a row and all white keys with sharps and flats highlighted in black.

Yes, and piano ONLY makes sense in C, because the 12 notes have been compressed into 8 spaces by staggering-back the notes you never use in C. Meaning almost any other root means different patterns involving the black keys and differing fingerings.

If you cut-off the front of the piano, and play at the hammers-dampers, the patterns are consistent. (You may see this by watching the dampers.)

Guitar is naturally step/fret on each staring. However the interval from one string to the next is inconsistent. So a fingering changes if you try to find it one string over (say if you are trying to clear the low string to add a bass line).

> they make you minor in piano.

The school where I teched (not taught!), everybody got several semesters of Basic Theory classroom (now online), and "B.A. majors must ...pass the Keyboard Proficiency Examination" (there was Piano Class I and II if you didn't already have proficiency).

> important purpose of theory is as a language to help musicians understand each other

For-sure; but also a language is a road-map of what is possible. Learning Eskimo or Hawaiian you become aware of the 43 different kinds of snow or lava, and can work with that fact. I can work wood with screwdriver and hacksaw, but if I hung around Gabe I'd hear words like shaper and jig and become aware of other ways to make wood objects. Music Theory covers all the best-loved ways to put notes together, including ones that intuitive players may be fuzzy on.

[jojokeo]

(Brad  - don't even worry about anything, it's all good. We should all be able to take a little ribbing. I know you're always coming from a good place)

Okay, so for what it's worth here's a system that I've come up with. Likely just another way to say something that's been said a million times but for me, it's seemed to work better than other methods. I'm a numbers kind of guy and thinking of scales as numbers makes it easier for me to know where I'm at or where I've been. Sometimes to help cement it into my thick cranium I'll improvise to some chord progression in an unfamiliar key and call the scale number out loud before I make the next change. Another fun thing is to play a two chord rhythm and switch keys each time the chord changes. For example, The Stones intro for "You Can't Always Get What You Want" is slow and goes btwn C & F chords. I will alternate btwn Am pentatonic & Dm pentatonic on the changes for more of a melodic feel as the song slowly settles into the 1st verse. Then when it picks up tempo and gets rockin, a blistering face melting solo by SG on his "Turbo 'wreck" in Cm pentatonic and/or Eb maj would be more appropriate.

Now where the numbering system helps - besides the obvious of moving the same patterns up & down the neck 5 frets for Pattern 1/Am and going up 5 frets to Dm, I can stay on the same 5th fret area (like Brad suggested earlier). For C chord; play pattern 1 (Am), F chord; play pattern 4 (all on 5th fret area). So I hear the C and think "1", hear the F and think "4". Now I can move around more freely and when C comes again I can move up the neck & think pattern "3", then for the F I'd think "1". Then move up the neck again and think "4", then "2"...and so on.

The same idea can be done using the major scale, or major pentatonic, or minor scale. All we do is use these 5 patterns but where and how you use them makes all the difference.

Now for my own last personal cluster F@#K. I was taught to learn the scale positions originally in Cmajor with the Phygian mode shape being pattern or scale #1. I wish it could've been called "4" because then my numbering system would be the same for both pentatonic and major scale patterns. So I either continue to go with it or re-learn the major scale pattern to it's new number or vice versa. So far I'm about half way there. I will say that just in explaining this sort of personal dilemma, writing it down, and typing it out here has helped to organize my thoughts on it much better. I should've done this much sooner but I have SG to thank for causing me to finally do it now. I spend a fair amount of time writing schematics, layouts, troubleshooting, & building but can't forget to allot more time for this stuff too.

[G._Hoffman]

Music Theory covers all the best-loved ways to put notes together, including ones that intuitive players may be fuzzy on.

Actually, eventually theory covers EVERYTHING musical, not just the "best-loved."  It covers the micro-tonal poly-rhythmic art noise of guys like Glenn Branca just as much as it does Rhythm Changes (the 32 bar chord progression from "I got Rhythm" that - with substitutions - makes up the changes behind about 60% or all jazz songs), Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring," or "London Calling" by The Clash.  That's the whole point. 

I always know someone is completely ignorant of theory when they talk about "the rules," or my least favorite phrase, "you have to know the rules before you can break them."  It totally misses the point - THERE ARE NO RULES IN MUSIC.  Theory gives you the language to communicate what you are doing with others, but that's it.  The "rules" people always go on about aren't about music or music theory - they are a device for teaching you the language.  It is no different than conjugating verbs in a French class.  It has nothing to do with speaking French, but it gives you some of the tools you need to speak the language.  Theory class exercises have nothing to do with making music, but they give you some of the tools you need to communicate with other musicians. 

Much of my favorite music is made by people with really deep understanding of theory, but who have stopped thinking about it.  At some point, it just becomes background, and you just play.  But having learned theory, you're ears have learned to recognize things that you wouldn't have before you learned theory.  The somewhat cliched version of this is to say, "learn everything, and then forget it when you play."


Gabriel

[SILVERGUN]

Very well said PRR and Gabriel,,,,I'll save all of the "quote boxes", because it would take me an hour to agree with everything you guys are saying here 
PRR, just having you here raises the IQ total substantially!

Jojo, I love your approach there, and it really ties in with where I'm going with this (except for your numbering system,,,I dont think numbers,,,,but that doesn't mean someone else won't find that method useful,,,so thanks for sharing)

Please check my **disclaimer in the first post of this thread to understand better where I was coming from with this specific thread

I have given guitar lessons at different points in my life and I've seen the "deer in the headlights" look many times when you start trying to apply these theories to guys who just wanna play.......so that's where this is coming from

I watch my sister-in-law struggle to the point of giving up piano, because she can't do what her teacher has assigned her (sight read and play sheet music in Keys other than C).............and I say to her----"why bother?"......I sit down and make a simple song and she says "that is nice, what is it?",,,and I say "it's what I feel right now,,,nobopdy told me to play anything,,,,and if you notice I'm NOT using the black ones".... (I'm no pianist)
BUT, because her "teacher" isn't there to OK my approach, she never listens to me, and passes it off as though I have some majical skill, that automatically comes hand in hand with being a guitar player..........so every Christmas I sit and watch her struggle and get nowhere and I feel bad for her and her teacher.......you can't fix stubborn

And Brad,,,just keep being Brad....it wouldn't be the same without you

[SILVERGUN]

I spend a fair amount of time writing schematics, layouts, troubleshooting, & building but can't forget to allot more time for this stuff too.

Amen Brother,,,,it's all give and take

We only get so much time here and it's a tough choice---PLAY? or BUILD?

Recently my building has inspired my playing so it's been WIN-WIN

[jojokeo]

We only get so much time here and it's a tough choice---PLAY? or BUILD?

Recently my building has inspired my playing so it's been WIN-WIN

Exactly, I find when I'm dialing in a design or debugging (think Tubenit ;) it causes a lot a playing to do this. So it really goes back and forth A LOT!!! That's when the wife about starts to lose it at times. She's fine w/ me in the garage at my bench or studying, etc. as she knows where I am and I'm quiet! Not getting into trouble or causing it, lol. 

[tubenit]

WHOA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  This is really cool!!     

I finally had a chance to put on a CD of jam tracks and try out the Dorian, Phyrgian and Aeolian modes.

Some observations    :

1)  Some of those work excellent with Santana's stuff where pentatonic is lacking .................  (never could find his groove)

2)  After playing for a while,  I realized I was somewhat doing those modes already by picking notes out of what I understand (guess)
     to be a minor pentatonic and then throwing in some notes from what I understand (guess) to be a major pentatonic. So I was already
     playing partially in those modes. 

3)  I am surprised how easily I am adapting to the Dorian and Aeolian modes to use them on songs

4)  Sort of a jazz type tune allowed me to play pentatonic in C (song was in C) and then use Dorian, Phyrgian and Aeolian in "A"?
     Playing along with BB King, I often will use pentatonic in C and in A when his song is in C.  So this is kind of sort of like that.

5)  Then I tried Dark Side of the Moon (Pink Floyd) and found all those work in B along with pentatonic in B.

6)  Some of the time one or more of those modes has notes that work OK transitioning from one place to another BUT you couldn't
     stay on the note very long. Like the Phyrgian was useful transitioning around on Dark Side of the Moon & sounding good moving
     thru the mode rapidly but wouldn't allow me to play some of the notes slowly where they stand out.

7)  Because I use so many bends, my little finger doesn't always get much of a work out playing lead (as opposed to chords), but it
     is pretty essential to use my little finger in some of these mode runs

8)  On one song, the pentatonic sounded kind of "forced" and yet some of these other modes fit right in

Honestly, I think this will be the most helpful thing I've learned in yrs to help me improve my playing.

I'm pretty excited about this and think it will be something that will be a natural part of my playing 6 months from now.

Silvergun, you definitely understood my mental block learning this stuff & referencing the pentatonic stuff was VERY COOL and useful to me!!!!   Thank you!!

What I need to do next is get further down the line in HEARing  where these modes go and then after that start to figure out why they work.  I am going to focus on hearing this stuff first and using it before I rack my brain trying to make sense of it.

VERY FUN stuff!!!!!    Back to the guitar and amp now for some more playing

  With respect, Jeff 

[SILVERGUN]

GREAT feedback Jeff, 
Exactly what I was hoping to hear......the beginning of a happy ending

That 1 post made every minute that I have put into this, completely worth it X 1,000,000

One of the first solos that I learned note for note was Time off of that album (DSOTM), and that was a breakthough moment in scale understanding for me, and bend intonation,,,,so it's great to hear you using that album as a backing track

To quote you---"I like the way you're looking at this all", and using what YOU want to YOUR advantage

It's been said---"If it sounds right, it is right"---and that's all "the rules" you need.

Congratulations, and keep on keepin' on.........one of the greatest joys in life is the realization of a dream (like building a Wreck )

[Willabe]

Actually, eventually theory covers EVERYTHING musical, not just the "best-loved."  It covers the micro-tonal poly-rhythmic art noise of guys like Glenn Branca just ..... That's the whole point.  

I always know someone is completely ignorant of theory when they talk about "the rules," or my least favorite phrase, "you have to know the rules before you can break them."  It totally misses the point - THERE ARE NO RULES IN MUSIC.  Theory gives you the language to communicate what you are doing with others, but that's it.  The "rules" people always go on about aren't about music or music theory - they are a device for teaching you the language.  

Theory class exercises have nothing to do with making music, but they give you some of the tools you need to communicate with other musicians.

Really? No rules?      

And all these years I've been wasting my time. I could have learned this guys language;

Glenn Branca interview.

http://youtu.be/aEq57S094ro

Seems like a man with no rules. He is a musical genius!

The need for structure/rules in this world is a reality. It's found in nature, physics, math, it's found in the building trades, it's found in wood working, etc....

There's an old 3 stooges short where they build a house.          Front door was half way up the wall, horizontal and had no stairs going to it. Stairs crooked, were up 3' off the floor attached to the wall with no door at the top stair..... everything was wrong and by the end of the short it all came crashing down.    NO RULES.

Go ahead and build a flat top guitar with no rules. At best it will just be a bad sounding, playing and looking guitar. At worst the top will wrap, pull up or even fail and the neck joint will move or even fail. Why, no rules for the load structure bracing pattern and neck tenon joint.  

Only in the "arts" do people pull this kinda stuff and get away with it.

WHY?   Because it's "ART".

Like fine arts painters talking a handful of night crawlers dipping them in a can of paint and throwing them down on a sheet of canvas on the floor. 5 or 6 handfuls dipped in different colors, let them wiggle around for a while and instant work of fine art. Now that really speaks to me.

Give me a break.                        

Much of my favorite music is made by people with really deep understanding of theory, but who have stopped thinking about it.  At some point, it just becomes background, and you just play.  But having learned theory, you're ears have learned to recognize things that you wouldn't have before you learned theory.  The somewhat cliched version of this is to say, "learn everything, and then forget it when you play."

This is a given as with anything else in life we learn. Once you learn it you don't need to think about. You only learn it to have the freedom to freely function in it.    

Theory, rules of harmony are also a way for each person to organize music in our own minds to be able to access what we what to play when we need it.

THERE ARE NO RULES IN MUSIC is a cliche also. Actually it goes; "The first rule in music is their are no rules in music."  

                 Brad              

[G._Hoffman]

Really? No rules?      

And all these years I've been wasting my time. I could have learned this guys language;

Glenn Branca interview.

http://youtu.be/aEq57S094ro

Seems like a man with no rules. He is a musical genius!

He's married to a friend of mine, actually.  Most people aren't going to really get into his music, but some people do.  Both Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo from Sonic Youth used to be in his Orchestra.  So was Paige Hamilton from Helmet.  All three site him as an important influence.  They went in different directions with it, to say the least, and both groups reached much larger audiences than Glenn Branca himself will ever reach.  But they did it using, at least in part, using ideas they got from his compositions.  And at times, some of his stuff can be very powerful.  If you are in the right mood, and of course, if you can turn up the volume loud enough to actually get the effects he is after.  

But this is normal.  How many people actually bought Velvet Underground albums?  But the people who did all started bands, and a lot of people who wouldn't much care for the Velvets sure loved The Clash, or The Police.  Rite of Spring started a riot, the audience was so upset (not actually true - the riot was probably because of the nature of the ballet it was written for - it was a rather ugly and provocative dance), but it changed everything in orchestra music after it.  Even I have a hard time with a lot of the Minimalists, find atonal composers difficult at times, and twelve tone rows are often not that musical.  But I've heard a few young composers in the last few years who use all of those same techniques, but integrated with all the more traditional stuff, and they have made some absolutely glorious music!  (THIS ONE was particularly good at the Minnesota Orchestra's New Composer's Institute concert in 2012, though you may not like it as much as I did, but I nearly wept at the concert.  If you are going to listen to this, keep the volume very low, and close your eyes - or at least, that is what the composer recommends.)

Only in the "arts" do people pull this kinda stuff and get away with it.

WHY?   Because it's "ART".                 

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't art, that it isn't creative or even that it isn't good.  I don't much LIKE Bob Dylan, but I know he is good at what he does.  Same with a lot of country music (I can't STAND the Louvin Brothers, for instance), but that doesn't mean it can't be good.

Look, if you are doing a gig with a bunch of friends, you are playing (hopefully) what you are hearing in your head, but there is nothing which says you can't play something else if you hear that instead, UNLESS you agree to the rule.  But those rules are only rules BECAUSE you agree to them.  At another gig, the rules can be totally different.  Sure, form and all that have their place, but so does chaos.  I don't have any interest in listening to Ornette Colman every day, but some days its the only thing that will satisfy my ears.  

So like I said, there are only two reasons you need theory - to open your ears to things you hadn't thought about before, and to give you the language you need to communicate the things you hear in your head.  The "rules" you get in theory classes are just there to show you a particular concept for an exercise.  Once you get into the real world, you should play what you hear.  If what you hear is nothing but I-IV-V progressions, that's great!  Play it!  I love that stuff!!!!  But I also love long drawn out periods of dissonance with constantly shifting time signatures and 7 part counter point!

Heck, in traditional harmony, they are always telling you to never use parallel fifths, but if you listen to most hard rock or metal genres, that's all there is - constant parallel fifths!!!! (POWER CHORDS!!!!!)  But somehow, I thing Bach would probably dig him some Metallica or Megadeth!    Though, I suppose as a church organist he might be more of a Stryper fan.  


Gabriel

[SILVERGUN]

OK,,,more cutting pasting and simplifying......I'm happy with this as #3

[Willabe]

Very nice SG.

(You have the 6 and 7 modes flip/floped. A is the relitive minor for C and is the 6'th mode)


                Brad    

[SILVERGUN]

Very nice SG.
(You have the 6 and 7 modes flip/floped. A is the relitive minor for C and is the 6'th mode)

Thank you Sir,,,,of course you are correct   

I knew it was only a matter of time until I made a mistake....thanks for catching it quick before too many people save / download jpeg

2 heads are always better than 1......I edited the pic to reflect correct order of modes.

THANKS!

[Willabe]

I knew it was only a matter of time until I made a mistake....thanks for catching it quick before too many people save / download jpeg

Easy mistake to make, no big thang.


              Brad