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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Tube Current Draw  (Read 11856 times)

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Offline plexi50

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Tube Current Draw
« on: December 13, 2010, 03:17:19 pm »
I have 2 pairs of RCA 6L6GC Blackplate power tubes

One set is running with a 430VDC plate @ 42.0 GVDC (These sound good)

The other set of RCA 6L6GC tubes are running with a 405VDC @ 44.3 GVDC (These sound better)

Is this second set ot tubes drawing too much current / If so why?

Both sets test out on my tester at 100% emissions with no grid leakage

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 03:30:44 pm »
Tubes are not precision devices by any means,so one set drawing more current is absolutely no surprise.
  Some amps sound better when the tubes are driven harder and some don't.Sucking the voltage down to 405v is a cause for concern though,and it may mean you are taxing that power transformer.Bet it gets really hot.
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Offline bobmegantz

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 04:21:17 pm »
Maximum plate dissipation for the 6L6GC is 30W.  430V X .042A = 18W, so in both cases your quiescent dissipation is well under the limit.

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 05:54:22 pm »
Yeah isn't math a wonderful thing.Now what amp do you have and why is that second set of tubes drawing that voltage down that much?

That's quite a drop from 430v to 405v.
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Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2010, 06:55:10 pm »
I am using my Bandmaster reverb with a 5U4GB rectifier

Different tubes demanding more current. Yes the PT is a little hot.

Can still touch it but it's hot. If i use the Sovtek 5581 tubes i have, then i get 430VDC plate with grid 42 mv

They sound good as well . I am removing the RCA 6L6GC's  until i fgure this out. Maybe dying tubes though they read good on the tester 100% on the good to bad meter range
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 07:11:54 pm by plexi50 »

Offline PRR

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2010, 07:29:02 pm »
>> One set is running with a 430VDC plate @ 42.0 GVDC
> 430V X .042A


I can't be 100% sure what "GVDC" means, but I don't think he means "mA".

-42V on the grids for about 430V on G2 (much more important than plate voltage) isn't wrong. I would not try to guess how many mA will pass, considering all the different things which are called "6L6".

Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2010, 07:42:00 pm »
Yeah i was just looking at what i typed. I ment grid millivolts. Im tacking in a pair of 1 ohm resistors now to get the actual milliamps

Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2010, 08:56:10 pm »
Ok. I have recheck my PT High voltage leads and they are 352-0-352 using a 5U4GB rectifier. Standby flipped off and working B+ is 409VDC

Now this is weird because i think i should have at least a 460VDC B+ off pin 8 of the 5U4GB

Also checked the high voltage leads to the rectifier under load and they read 348VDC from 352VDC without a load

I have tested several 5U4GB tubes and they all give the same reading / PT going south?

Offline punkykatt

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2010, 09:50:10 pm »
I had a similar problem with low B+ off the rectifyer, ended up being two new filter caps partically shorting out dropping  the B+. They tested in their uf range with the meter, but under high voltage they were defective.
Punky

Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2010, 10:13:09 pm »
Good point. I just changed the first 2 caps even though they are all new Sprague Atoms. No change. I have a GZ34 rectifier i am going to try right now and see how much of an increse there is in B+

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2010, 11:33:47 pm »
Ok. I have recheck my PT High voltage leads and they are 352-0-352 using a 5U4GB rectifier. Standby flipped off and working B+ is 409VDC
Now this is weird because i think i should have at least a 460VDC B+ off pin 8 of the 5U4GB
Also checked the high voltage leads to the rectifier under load and they read 348VDC from 352VDC without a load
I have tested several 5U4GB tubes and they all give the same reading / PT going south?

Also checked the high voltage leads to the rectifier under load and they read 348VDC from 352VDC without a load  
Do you mean VAC???

Forward conversion factor of 5U4 is 1.2 X 350VAC = 420VDC no load.

Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 07:38:27 am »
Sorry ment VAC high voltage leads

Offline tubeswell

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2010, 10:09:37 am »
Yeah i was just looking at what i typed. I ment grid millivolts. Im tacking in a pair of 1 ohm resistors now to get the actual milliamps

Out of curiosity, why are you setting out to measure mV at the grid?
A bus stops at a bus station. A train stops at a train station. On my desk, I have a work station.

Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2010, 11:37:24 am »
Glad you asked that. I got into the habit of just getting the tubes in the range they should work in, watch the tubes and try to make them redplate and then back off on the trimmer pot until the redline was gone.

Sort of like setting an old cars timing at the distributor by having someone push on the brake pedal and put the gas pedal to the floor and then backing off on the distributor a bit. Under actual load conditions

It is easier to adjust the bias according to the plate voltage in ma

I have had trouble with tubes in the past where one tube will redplate while the other is fine

Just a habit

Offline Blind Lemon

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2010, 03:57:44 pm »
Damn, I don't want to be the Guy under the hood and with my hand on the distributor. I can think of a couple of things that could go wrong to screw up your day. And yes I did grow up working on 50/60s muscle cars. :undecided:

BL

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2010, 04:42:26 pm »
Ok. I have recheck my PT High voltage leads and they are 352-0-352 using a 5U4GB rectifier. Standby flipped off and working B+ is 409VDC

Now this is weird because i think i should have at least a 460VDC B+ off pin 8 of the 5U4GB

Also checked the high voltage leads to the rectifier under load and they read 348VDC from 352VDC without a load

I have tested several 5U4GB tubes and they all give the same reading / PT going south?

With respect, it's hard to apply any conversion factor without knowing other information.

With a given transformer and rectifier, you could have any voltage from 1.414 times the seocndary voltage to 0v, depending on whether the output of the rectifier is shorted (0v), or feeding a filter cap with no current being drawn from it (Vrms * 1.414). The latter case is also true if an "infinite filter cap" is used, and moves towards 0v as the value of the filter is made smaller.

Transformer winding resistance also limits charging current, usually has an impact by lowering the B+ under full-power conditions.

Anyway, point is, that the info isn't really informative by itself. It could also lead you on a wild goose chase.

Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2010, 04:56:47 pm »
HBP i think i just need to get some new power tubes and stop fooling with what i have typed below: Have not had so many bad 6L6GC tubes before / My fault for taking another chance on Ebay

Man we did some crazy stuff back then. Especially if the brakes could not keep the car still!

I have 6 6L6GC tubes all which have messed up ma bias ranges

One tube at 420VDC reads -41.ma while the one next to it reads -28 ma

Im just going to have to buy some new production tubes and just get used to it / Any good new production 6L6GC that can come close to the RCA blackplates?

I  bought 2 pairs 6L6GC tubes 2 weeks ago off Ebay that are duds a far as getting a close match

I am not buying anymore tubes off Ebay. There selling NOS tubes that you can clearly see are either cherry plated or the getter flashing is deteriorating and you can see where the getter flashing used to be on the top and side of the tubes. BS

By the way what is an acceptable mismatch?

One more thing: No power tubes install: Amp on and reading 453VDC on the plate pins of the power tube sockets

Put tubes back in and amp on under load. The plate VDC draws down to 405VDC. Whats up Doc?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 05:10:09 pm by plexi50 »

Offline sluckey

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2010, 05:18:11 pm »
Quote
One more thing: No power tubes install: Amp on and reading 453VDC on the plate pins of the power tube sockets

Put tubes back in and amp on under load. The plate VDC draws down to 405VDC. Whats up Doc? 
Nothing is up. That's normal. Quit worrying about it and focus on the important things, like, what'cha gonna get your wife for Christmas? And will it be enough to forgive you for the past year?   :grin:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2010, 05:24:16 pm »
I used to 'power time' m race car until I saw a guy doing that get hit in the face with an aluminum fan.I went to an electric caged fan after that.He lived but was pretty ugly after his self-inflicted facial surgery.

 I don't 'power time' my tubes anymore either,but I do adjust until they sound good and then check to make sure the current isn't in the stratosphere.
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Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 06:21:06 pm »
I will feel better after having tried a pair of brand new tubes and re check the voltages

Yeah man Xmas is around the corner. Good for me beacuse i get both Xmas and birthbay stuff

Today is the 14th and my birthday as a matter of fact / You will love my logic on my real age

First there are only 17 days left in December

So i look at it like this: I dont count 1957. I start at 1958 and then tack on the 17 days at the end

So to me mathematicaly i have just turned 52 instead of 53 / I know it doesnt work this way

Makes me feel like im cheaten a year off though!  :cry:

Offline sluckey

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2010, 06:45:25 pm »
That logic explains a lot.  :grin:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline jjasilli

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2010, 12:24:44 pm »
 :laugh:

Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2010, 02:03:32 pm »
From The Tales Of The Crimped. I mean cript!  :huh:
Ya know i look at some of the words i use to explain things and get confused myself after reading them again  :huh:

Im trying to keep it simple but it dont look like it  :huh:  

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2010, 02:15:35 pm »
Plexi, just for a point of anecdotal reference, you may have read in my other posts about the tube matcher thingy I built to match and burn in pairs of 6L6 (some G's, M's [my designation for metal ones] and mostly very nice Sylvania NOS JAN 6L6GA's in boxes that literally crumble as soon as you touch them)

The main chassis for my matcher uses precision resistors in series w/the 6L6 cathodes in typical fashion, but I decided to build an external chassis with 2 BIG meters that I can photograph to show (and thus help sell) two tubes' cathode currents. The external chassis simply plugs into a 6L6 socket and grabs heater, bias, and B+ volts and has no components other than the meters and 2 screen resistors.



What I found surprised me. I usually start by picking a nominal B+, say 300 or 325 VDC, and crank the bias hard negative until the tubes under test are WAY cut off. Like -80 volts. Two Sylvania 6L6GA, JAN NOS, which spent 60 years hanging out next to each other, can read 20 ma and 44 ma under identical circuit conditions! Out of about a dozen Syl 6L6GA I got TWO sets of within-2ma matched pairs, and was able to get another matching a JAN with a "commercial". An 8-15 ma difference between apparently identical was the RULE, not the exception. Now, would I expect newer 6L6GC to be better? Absolutely.




Offline plexi50

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2010, 07:45:22 pm »
Wow that is a nice piece of equipment you built. I have gotten a lot of tubes latley that are far apart in ma readings.  I have a nice NOS pair of 6V6GT tubes. One reads -19ma and the other -24 ma. I just dont want to harm any of these tubes or have a lopsided tone because one is running hotter than the other. Though that lopsided tone is what sounds good in some amps. Here i go. What is lopsided? Steve? :grin:

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2010, 07:54:39 pm »
 :laugh: "Wow that is a nice piece of equipment you built."

LMAO, man. You should (or perhaps shouldn't) see the used WW2 radio chassis I built the tube matcher on. It inspired me proposing to Fresh_Start we start an "ugliest build" thread....in response to the ..."nicest build" thread we had going some time back.....except there would be no contest after I posted pix of this pig! It's by far the ugliest thing I have ever built, going back 45 years. The ext chassis w/meters is pretty OK, but the main tester is brutal!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2010, 01:04:14 am »
Now, would I expect newer 6L6GC to be better? Absolutely.

I don't know why they should be any better...

Vacuum tubes are bits of metal and coils of wire assembled mostly with human hands. The tolerances achieved by manufacturers are quite impressive for how they did it, but even tiny variances in the position of the tube elements result in big changes in characteristics. Which is the whole reason microphonics can happen in the first place.

I've seen tubes of a given type with all manner of variation in Gm. And older doesn't necessarily mean lower (I've got a ton of mid-60's 12AU7's that test with Gm's higher than I've seen in any manual, by a factor of 2 at least).

And I view Gm as being important in this discussion, because it is defined, after all, as mA's per volt (applied to the grid). So tubes with differing Gm should result in differing plate voltage with the same (fixed) grid bias. When testing tubes, I see a lot with a Gm that falls in a certain "Good" range, but rarely with the exact same Gm in a given test circuit.

I suspect (and would like to test out) that a pair of tubes with differing Gm will behave as though they were more closely matched when using self-bias than when fixed-bias is applied. I can't remember if I read it somewhere, but the thinking is that the tube's own current is being used to generate its bias, and that a pair with differing Gm (and so differing currents) will tend toward a happy medium between their 2 extremes.

I'm not entirely sure how that would affect the dynamic operation (instead of static biasing), but consider this: The Good-?-Bad scale on old tube testers is known as the "English scale". My Hickok's instruction state that when checking how much life is left in a tube, thatI should use the english scale, hold the test button down, and crank a knob until the needle lies on a predetermined mark in the Good area. The life test switch is then thrown, and if the needle drops but does not go out of the Good section, that it has plenty of life left. The manual then states that the bottom edge of the good section corresponds to 60% of the Gm of the starting point of this test (meaning a tube with a Gm 40% low is still good).

It is easy enough to run through some paper "theory tests" for how well a push-pull pair works when 1 tube has a Gm of half its partner. I think I'll start playing with that (or looking up where it has already been done).

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2010, 12:07:26 pm »
I can tell you that if you go through a pile of output tubes with the idea that you will select out pairs that pass currents within "X" ma (where X is a pretty small number, 1-2-3-4 ma) of each other, and THEN test them for Gm (and insist they pass) within say 10%, your "matched pair" yield will fall by more than 50%.

When I was a kid in school in New Jersey, we went on a field trip to the RCA tube plant in Harrison, NJ. I was well into building tube stuff back then and it was pretty danged interesting, a HUGE factory from the 1920's or before, although it was also clear that it would get unbelievably boring working there every day. The tubes (only all-glass 7/9 pins and perhaps compactrons were being made, no octals that I could see) were made on these 7-10 foot across carousels. The raw materials were the bases, just a glass disk with 7-9-12 pins stuck thru with the glass-to-metal seals made, and the upper part of the envelope which looked kind like a slender and straight sided wine flute, with a 4-5" tube attached, obviously to hold and evacuate the tube.

The carousels advanced kachunk-kachunk maybe 15 seconds dwell at each station, with 30-40 stations around their circumference, and at every station, a wire or two or three got bent, a pre-fabbed grid on two support wires got jammed into the base mica, a sheet of plate-metal was bent into a cage....and on and on it went. It was mesmerizing. At the end, a torch sealed up the base, heated and stretched out the tube, and a coil flashed the getter. The machines were marvels of dozens if not hundreds of actuators, grippers, little arms moving in and out, and it must have all been programmed with some kind of chain, inside the thing.








Offline VMS

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2010, 12:49:44 pm »
Hey eleventeen.

I have this SE amp in which I can try different power tubes. The best sounding tube so far has been a JAN-CHS-6L6GA clear glass coke bottle with Sylvania written in green. The problem with this tube is that it makes this scratchy noise that comes and goes. Kinda like wind blowing to microphone or if you rub a mic to your clothes.

Have you had similar problems with 6L6GA tube?

What is the burn in time with these tubes and does that help get rid of these noises?


VMS

Offline eleventeen

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2010, 01:19:03 pm »
To be frank with you, I haven't auditioned any of my Syl 6L6GA in anything I can listen to!! Only in my tube-matcher. All my amps (Pro Reverb, hotrodded 4x6L6 Deluxe Reverb and hotrodded 2x 6L6 Princeton Rev) are in the 5+ year repair pile, and even if they weren't, I think their B+ volts exceed or are right at maximum 6L6GA ratings = 360 VDC. And I never tried a 6L6 GA in my (working!) SF Vibro-Champ!

But I'll try some in the Vibro and let you know. 


Offline VMS

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Re: Tube Current Draw
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2010, 03:45:13 pm »
But I'll try some in the Vibro and let you know. 

Thanks! I'd appreciate your experience on this tube.

 


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