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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 5E7 (ish) build up and running!  (Read 14259 times)

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Offline bakerlite

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5E7 (ish) build up and running!
« on: March 05, 2011, 03:09:44 pm »
So -
I have a partially finished project i picked up for good money a while back, I never touched it before now it just sat in a box but i figure having all the parts here it will be good excersise to take on my vox build so i started at it a few nights ago.
Its pretty much a tweed bandmaster 2x 10 cab and chassis, mojotone irons and all required compnents to a degree :)
Having researched  the part numbers i see it is actually a blackface bassman OT (2250ohms) a bassman PT ~(358v , 53v , 3.15v and 5AC) - the choke is the higher rated correct bandmaster type though.
I am going to go by the ceriatone layout as the person i bought it off said they bought the parts with that in mind so i figure why not.  

I am also going to try and  implement dougs grounding layout instead of the ceriatone one.


1 - The three main filter caps are rated at 16uf - I only have 20uf caps to go here - is that ok? Also in implementing doug's layout i cannot see which of the filter caps should be grounded to pots buss wire and which to PT bolt - My apologies but i cannot differentiate between them - looking at it i guess the first 16uf sharing its ground with the 100uf  bias cap ground should be grounded to PT Bolt? the second two parrelled 16uf Caps should go to the pots Buss wire  ground as should the last filter stage the 8uf cap? Again i am worried about fact i am substituting 3 20uf caps instead of the 16uf's?

2 - the usuall 5e7 tweed bandmaster output trans is rated at 3000ohms with 4 and 8 ohm outoput taps. The one i have is a blackface bassman output transformer rated at 2250 ohms with 2,4 and 8 ohm outputs. I'm not worried about wiring the outs but i wonder should anything in the circuit be changed due to the 750ohm difference in what i "should" be using.

3 -should the ground for the presence pot be isolated on its own?

4 - the person i bought this stuff from said there was a problem with th ceriatone  OT  and output tube layout  said it was connected wrong in the layout and there was a resistor missing - i have compared it to schematics and it looks ok but he did say that someone on this forum pointed out the errors! i am no expert so if anyone spots it let me know!

i literally have all the parts here in front of me - i have most of the eyelet board and fly offs done and i have the pots and input jacks soldered up too, minus a few grounds. excited about wrapping this up and doing my vox build!

thanks for any help at all!



« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 05:09:52 pm by bakerlite »
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Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2011, 06:28:54 pm »
Sorry
forgot to post layout, my bad
 as for point 4 the only thing i see is that there is no resistor from 4 to 6 but most tweeds i looked at dont have this screen resistor. as i said i have compared to shcematics and the layout looks ok to me.


Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline JayB

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2011, 07:33:11 pm »
So -
I have a partially finished project i picked up for good money a while back, I never touched it before now it just sat in a box but i figure having all the parts here it will be good excersise to take on my vox build so i started at it a few nights ago.
Its pretty much a tweed bandmaster 2x 10 cab and chassis, mojotone irons and all required compnents to a degree :)
Having researched  the part numbers i see it is actually a blackface bassman OT (2250ohms) a bassman PT ~(358v , 53v , 3.15v and 5AC) - the choke is the higher rated correct bandmaster type though.
I am going to go by the ceriatone layout as the person i bought it off said they bought the parts with that in mind so i figure why not.  

I am also going to try and  implement dougs grounding layout instead of the ceriatone one.


1 - The three main filter caps are rated at 16uf - I only have 20uf caps to go here - is that ok? Also in implementing doug's layout i cannot see which of the filter caps should be grounded to pots buss wire and which to PT bolt - My apologies but i cannot differentiate between them - looking at it i guess the first 16uf sharing its ground with the 100uf  bias cap ground should be grounded to PT Bolt? the second two parrelled 16uf Caps should go to the pots Buss wire  ground as should the last filter stage the 8uf cap? Again i am worried about fact i am substituting 3 20uf caps instead of the 16uf's?

2 - the usuall 5e7 tweed bandmaster output trans is rated at 3000ohms with 4 and 8 ohm outoput taps. The one i have is a blackface bassman output transformer rated at 2250 ohms with 2,4 and 8 ohm outputs. I'm not worried about wiring the outs but i wonder should anything in the circuit be changed due to the 750ohm difference in what i "should" be using.

3 -should the ground for the presence pot be isolated on its own?

4 - the person i bought this stuff from said there was a problem with th ceriatone  OT  and output tube layout  said it was connected wrong in the layout and there was a resistor missing - i have compared it to schematics and it looks ok but he did say that someone on this forum pointed out the errors! i am no expert so if anyone spots it let me know!

i literally have all the parts here in front of me - i have most of the eyelet board and fly offs done and i have the pots and input jacks soldered up too, minus a few grounds. excited about wrapping this up and doing my vox build!

thanks for any help at all!





1. 20uf is fine. The first 3 20uf filter caps along with the bias cap can be grounded to a transformer bolt. The 8uf is grounded with the preamp grounds, pot grounds and preferably at the other end of the chassis where your input ground would be.

2. You should be good there. I don't think 750ohms is going to matter much. To reflect the proper impedance for 2 6L6's, I would use the 4ohm secondary with a 8ohm speaker.2k is close to four 6l6's. 4k is more like 2 6l6's. Your taps are really doubled. 2 is 4, 4 is 8 and 8 is 16.  Rivera used the same OT in the Fender concert II when he built for them.

3. Yes. Ideally, the output transformer ground should be grounded with it.

4. I see the errors. Pin3 is the plates. Where each output primary is connected to each tube. One for each side. The OT CT should not be connected where its at. That should be connected to the first 20uf filter cap from the left in that layout. pin4 is your screens, those are connected right provided you keep the OT CT off of it. Pin5 is your grids. The way it's drawn in the layout, it bypasses the 1k5 grid resistors. Those wires should be wired to unused pin6.

I would be more inclined to do it differently though.  I would solder one end of the wire from pin5 to one end of the 1k5 resistor. Then solder that other end of the resistor to pin5. Then use pin6 as solder point for your screen wires and a 470ohm resistor for the screens. Then the other end of the resistor to pin4.
I would be a little paranoid with out a screen resistor.

Everything else looks fine. Have fun building it and be safe. I still have a 5E7 build I never finished yet. Everything is laying here but just haven't got the time yet!  :cry:
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 08:09:09 pm by JayB »
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Offline sluckey

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2011, 08:40:59 pm »
Quote
4 - the person i bought this stuff from said there was a problem with th ceriatone  OT  and output tube layout  said it was connected wrong in the layout and there was a resistor missing - i have compared it to schematics and it looks ok but he did say that someone on this forum pointed out the errors! i am no expert so if anyone spots it let me know!
In the Ceriatone layout... The OT and output tube screens and plates (pins 4 and 3 respectively) are wired exactly like the original 5E7. However, as JayB says, the control grids are not wired correctly. The two red wires from the board to pin 5 of each output tube should really connect to pin 6 of each tube. I haven't looked at the rest of the layout.

This power amp is slightly different than most of the Fender power amps in that the plates and screens are fed from the same PS node. Be sure the choke can handle the plate current too.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline JayB

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2011, 09:05:49 pm »
Your right. I never noticed that before. Wonder what it would sound like if they were separated?
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Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2011, 09:07:53 pm »
that makes perfect sense , i see now that 6 is unused in a 6l6g therefore nothing gets to run through the resistor the way ceriatone have it.
and having the resistor  inline with that wire before it hits pin5 then frees up pin 6 to be used with pin 4 for the screen resistor. brilliant.

I'm actuallly happy my output impedance is doubled - thats useful!

funny i checked the weber 5e7 layout he has not made the same mistake with the 1k5 resistor but he has the same scenario of the OT center tap running to pin 4? i wonder why?

my OT center tap should definitely run in to the  choke?

the way i see it in the original fender schematic and weber's is that it feeds into the node/eyelet  'after' the choke that is before or on the begining of the  the 10k resistor.

the way you decribe it the OT Centre Tap should be connected to the first Cap on the left which means it is directly connected to the standby switch as that node meets the wire from the switch,

maybe i'm still unsure of this aspect. i'll see if i can read up on the function of the OT center tap and perhaps then i will actually know for myself where it should go and why!

its probably a long electronics lesson but i wish i knew the difference between placing the OT center tap straight on to the tubes whcih then runs up to the choke node compared to running it to the choke node and then down to the tube!
some days i feel like i learned so much about these amps and always a second later i realize how far i have to go!

thanks so much for taking the time! definately feeling more confident about it!
Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline JayB

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2011, 09:16:15 pm »
Wire it as Sluckey pointed out. I was wrong on that. The only mistake is the grid wires should be soldered to pin 6 instead of 5.

If you feel adventurous, you could wire the out put transformer like the later fenders and compare.
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Offline sluckey

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2011, 09:40:53 pm »
I would be inclined to wire the OT like the later blackface models. And I would use screen resistors. But if you want to remain true to the 5E7, wire it like the Ceriatone layout (correcting the pin 5 error).

There is another method for wiring the output tube sockets for the Blackface amps. Look at this layout for a Bandmaster AB763...
http://www.el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/fender/bandmaster_ab763_schem.pdf

The 1500Ω grid stoppers are mounted between pins 1 and 5, down close to the tube base. And the 470Ω/1W screen resistors are mounted between pins 4 and 6, about 1/2" - 3/4" above the socket. I prefer this method.
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 07:04:00 am »
I would be inclined to wire the OT like the later blackface models.

Is this a very subtle wiring differemnce
Looking at the pdf you lined to it bascily means the OT Centre tap gets wired on the first large filter cap and then runs 'into' the choke..
Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline sluckey

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2011, 07:27:27 am »
Quote
Is this a very subtle wiring differemnce
very
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline sluckey

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2011, 07:58:33 am »
Here's a pic of a typical AB763 output tube socket...

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2011, 10:04:37 am »
thats perfect

As i understand it =
 ab763  OT Centre Tap is receiving power unfiltered by the caps and choke.
 5e3 centretap is receiving power after one stage of filtering and the choke.

What is the knock on effect to the OT performance?  or should we say is one better or worse than the other - maybe it depends on how the OT is wound?


I am getting the eylet board finished now -  i seem to be a fraction short on space - wondering if i can substitute the 2 paralleled filter  caps and 10watt resistor for a 40uf capacitor? it would tidy things up no end!??
Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline Willabe

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2011, 12:31:45 pm »
As i understand it =
 ab763  OT Centre Tap is receiving power unfiltered by the caps and choke.
 5e3 centretap is receiving power after one stage of filtering and the choke.

No, OT CT on AB763 still is cap feed, just like 5E3 and all others.


          Brad        :smiley: 

Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2011, 01:46:23 pm »
oh man, i must REALLY be stuck on the basics....

the i read the below schem i see the OT centre tap connected directly before the choke and 3 x 20uf caps.

I think i see my missunderstanding, there are 2 x 70uf casps just before the standby switch - this m,ust be why the OT center tap is cap fed... sorry.

http://www.el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/fender/bandmaster_ab763_schem.pdf
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Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2011, 02:38:21 pm »
can i go as high as 4k7 on the grid stopper resistor? its the closest 3watt resistor i have.

Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline sluckey

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2011, 06:47:53 pm »
Quote
2 x 70uf casps just before the standby switch
Right. And when you close the STBY switch, those caps are connected to the OT CT.

Quote
can i go as high as 4k7 on the grid stopper resistor?
Which resistor? The grid stopper connected to pin 5 is 1K5 (1500Ω) and only needs to be a half watter. You could use a 4K7 there, but it only needs to be half watt. Heck, a quarter watter would do just fine.

But if you're talking about the 470Ω/1W screen resistor connected to pin 6, don't use the 4K7. Many people use 1K/5W for a little extra protection but I would not go higher than 1K. You could get some of Doug's flame proof metal film 470Ω or 1K 3 watters and never worry about it again. Leo used 470Ω/1W CCs, and although I've seen quite a few that were toasted, I still use them,,,    mainly because I got a butt load of 'em.    :grin:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Willabe

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2011, 06:52:49 pm »
I think i see my missunderstanding, there are 2 x 70uf casps just before the standby switch - this m,ust be why the OT center tap is cap fed... sorry.

Yes.     :wink:    It's easer on the standby switch wired this way and easer on the rectifer tube also. When the switch is closed (ON) it's like it's not there as far as the caps and OT CT are concerned. Now their at the same point of connection electricly, even if physicly apart.  

Sorry? For what?     :grin:      It's OK to ask a question and it's OK not to see or understand something!

This is a big part of why were all here, is'nt it? Helping each other learn and grow. I would dare to say many of the guys here were once asking the same questions they now answer.      

Dougs library (at the top of the index page) has a TON of very good info! Take a good read in there, it will help you get unstuck on many of the basics and then some!

Now if I only could learn how to spell.      :laugh:


                      Brad        :smiley:      
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 06:59:06 pm by Willabe »

Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2011, 07:12:32 pm »
Thanks willabe and sluckey, you've been an awesome help.
 yep i was definitely talking about the grid stoppers - i thought they needed to be heavy duty,
 thankfully i have a load of half watters so happy days there and i have some nice metal 470R for the screen resistors.

Things are moving along nice now!
Pots and input jacks are soldered up ready to put in.
Eyelet Board with fly off's ready to 'drop' in!
Just started wiring up the rectifier.
Tomorrow i'll be running heaters,
Getting excited now about actually completing a build, i am triple checking everything i do though so i am a bit slow!!
Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline sluckey

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2011, 09:25:26 pm »
We need pics. Please feed our addiction!
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2011, 02:59:38 pm »
sure here you go
i'll post bettrer ones of the build later on




children were ill today so no progress yet today.

might try and do a bit now.
Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline bakerlite

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Re: few 5e7 bandmaster Q's
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2011, 09:14:44 am »
Ok
Almost fully wired -
Can i just check that i have done right by implementing the blackface OT and Output tube wiring layout:
main changes are:

1) OT CT now connected before choke on the standby switch - (in the ceriatone way it was in to pin 4 of the output tube then ran back to the filter section after the choke) - this means when you hit the standby the OT IMMEDIATELY receives power from the rectifier without passing through the choke but does benifit from the first 20uf capacitor (this is the resovoir cap in this circuit right? I am not confident i have made this change right but i am second guessing my self

2) grid stoppers used -

3) screen resistors used

IGNORE the OT CT label in this drawing - I forgot to scrub it out!!

Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline sluckey

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2011, 09:34:52 am »
Drawing looks fine.
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Offline Tone Junkie

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2011, 10:21:33 am »
Thank you for feeding our amp porn addiction. I always like to see that someone elses work bench looks just like mine . Sad thing is mine sits right in my living room wife says I only have a couple weeks to clean it up could be months, :l2: beautifull build .
Thanks Bill

Offline foghornleghorn

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2011, 09:31:57 am »
Nice job!

A tip if you crank this amp, the cathodyne PI is prone to frequency doubling distortion when pushed hard. This is not good sounding distortion. Fortunately it's easy to fix--just connect a 470K resistor between pin 7 of that 12AX7 and the outer end of the 1M resistor on the board, the end that is also connected to the .1 cap. That is the blue line on the layout. I would solder it directly to pin 7, and ideally the other end to an insulated standoff, then to the 1M on the board.

Anything between 100K and 1M may work but 470K is a fair place to start.

Offline bakerlite

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2011, 09:37:46 pm »
Thanks for the tip!

To be honest i have laid off the last few nights building up confidence.

i just have heaters and output tube sockets to solder up.

But man, space is getting REAL tight in this thing!

Maybe tomorrow!
Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2011, 10:38:16 am »
Maybe this is a bad time to point this out, but...

Tweed amps are built with the heaters wired up first, before any other elements of the amp. This is where seeing inside an original really helps.

I use to own a couple of original tweed Fender amps. Space inside is very limited (as you've found out).

The power transformer, power switch, pilot light and tube sockets get mounted first, and the heaters are wired. As you've probably noticed, there is a small lip around the edge of the open side of the chassis. The twisted heater wires run along the small corner formed at the inside of this lip, with wires splitting off from this line and heading over to the sockets themselves.

The idea is that this keeps the heater wiring against the chassis and as far from the circuit board and signal wiring as possible. This is also backwards of how you might see blackface amps wired. That's due to the fact that the sockets and the circuit board are on the same plane (as opposed the the 90-degree rotation seen in a tweed chassis).

The next thing I would wire up is the front panel pots and input jacks. The last step for me is to install the board itself. You generally have to insert it starting with one edge of the board, then rotate the board to lay it in flat. Keeping the wires running from the board to the pots and sockets oversize is very helpful, until you are ready to solder them in place.

The board wiresgoing to the sockets generally lay over the heater wires at right angles (as much as possible). Wires running into tube grids often sit up in the air to stay away from heater wiring. The wires running from the board to the pots are often dressed against the chassis and run up to the lip of the chassis on the pot side, before making a turn to run down to the pot lugs. A picture is worth a thousand words, but the amps I've built are unfortunately in another state right now.

This methoid of building/wiring winds up looking pretty neat, and gives the illusion of space in the chassis. If you need to swap a resistor or cap, it's quite easy to get your iron to the part. It does however result in some headaches initially for the guy wiring it up, although it's not too bad once you get the hang of it.

For all this stuff, solid core wire is almost essential, as you need the wire to stay where you place it. The real cloth covered wire (like Doug sells) makes cutting the wire to length much easier.

Offline bakerlite

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2011, 10:50:22 am »
Maybe this is a bad time to point this out, but...

he he - well a lesson learned there anyway!

fortunately i still have easy access to the lip running the heaters to back to the lamp.

its just as well i read this before I fully soldered up the output tube though for sure for sure.

As it is i only have the stoppers on 1-5 and OT wires soldered to pin 3 - they aren't even snipped yet so an easy unsolder.

Its amazing physiologically what a big deal ones first proper build is , if i put my mind to it i could be playing this thing by midnight.

But i keep on taking it one step at a time and then drinking lots of tea and reading the schematic over and over.

oddly implementing sluckeys suggesting of wiring the output section 'a la' blackface for some reason really helped me understand a great deal more of whats going on in the circuit as i just sat there looking at the 2 schematics and i could relate to the hardware i had in hand and where it had to be wired in, the purpose it was serving etc.

much, much to learn but such an enjoyable and educational experience so far.

My biggest worry is firing her up and hearing hum - or worst still, using up all the "wiring loom smoke" as i have come to call it from working on cars with bad jobs done on the electrics!

thanks all
Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline bakerlite

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2011, 05:09:03 pm »
Well Its alive!

First power up nothing went wrong thankfully.

Seems pretty quiet from what i can tell - bit of very very low sort of Power Transformer vibration sounding hum but have to say in the 30+ year old tube amps i have played this year none have been as quiet.

It sounds absolutely fantastic but its late here and the children are sleeping so morning time i will give it a work out.

At the moment its biased at 445v 35ma

I like a clean sound and am wondering should i leave well enough alone or should it be tweaked slightly as i think thats cool running for 6l6gc.

I cannot thank you all enough for your help - without your patience and advice i would not be the happy man i am now.

sincerely thanks

Cheers,
Bakerlite

Offline Willabe

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2011, 12:24:40 am »
Well Its alive!First power up nothing went wrong thankfully.

Allright !!!          :happy1:
I like a clean sound and am wondering should i leave well enough alone or should it be tweaked slightly as i think thats cool running for 6l6gc.
/quote]

Tweak away on the OP tube stage (bias) if you think it's runing too cool. If/did you put in an adj. bias?  If you did , start there. Then if you need/want more -- clean/OD -- you can work on that, by may be going back to the preamp stages

Plenty of guys here that will help you with that.


                Brad              :icon_biggrin:

Offline bakerlite

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Re: 5E7 Almost done......
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 11:53:40 am »
Nice job!

A tip if you crank this amp, the cathodyne PI is prone to frequency doubling distortion when pushed hard. This is not good sounding distortion. Fortunately it's easy to fix--just connect a 470K resistor between pin 7 of that 12AX7 and the outer end of the 1M resistor on the board, the end that is also connected to the .1 cap. That is the blue line on the layout. I would solder it directly to pin 7, and ideally the other end to an insulated standoff, then to the 1M on the board.

Anything between 100K and 1M may work but 470K is a fair place to start.

I dont understand how this works unless i am looking at the wrong component -
Pin 7 already goes to the end of the 1M resistor but neither end of that resistor is connected to a 0.1uf  cap?

could you elaborate?

sorry - i'm probably overlooking something...
Cheers,
Bakerlite

 


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