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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT  (Read 22879 times)

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Offline jeff

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6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« on: March 22, 2011, 12:07:20 pm »
 I got a pair of Sovtek 6L6WXT. According to this chart http://www.ax84.com/contrib/biascalc.php there is a big difference between 6L6 and 6L6GC. My voltage is around 410V depending on how the bias is set. Should I set the bias to 33.24mA or 51.22mA? 51.22mA seems way high.

 Setting the bias sets up the tube for the right load. Most fenders used 6L6GCs which is a 30W tube but is the cicruit designed to be biased at 70% of 19W and they went with the GCs because they are a heartier tube. In other words setting a tube to 70% of it's max is not always the best way to bias because you're trying to make the tube happy with the OT load. If an amp is designed for 6L6s and you put in 6L6GC you still want to bias it for 70% of 19W, right? If it was biased at 70% of 30W youd need a different OT, right?

 I guess what I'm asking is even though Fenders use 6L6GC is the circuit and OT designed to be biased at 70% of 19W and not 30W. I can see that this chart is calculating 70% of the max plate diss for each type of tube but 51.22mA seems too high fom what I've heard.

 Also, am I correct in thinking that if you pop 6L6s into a 6V6 amp, even though a 6L6 can handle more current you still want to bias the 6L6 to draw the same current as the 6V6s did to keep the circuit happy with the OTs load? So we don't necessarly bias all tubes at 70% of their max but it's a good rule of thumb when replacing the same type of tube in a certain amp designed for that tube.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 12:23:16 pm by jeff »

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 12:54:21 pm »
If the amp was designed for 6L6's then the current is not an issue.I bias for tone,not for some sense of safety,although i don't intentionally want to burn up a set of tubes.
 If the amp sounds good at 51ma and you are not diming all the time,leave it alone and see if the tubes will last.
Now it really depends on the amp when you are talking about plate voltages.You say yours is 410v depending on where it's biased.That doesn't mean a whole lot to me without some figures and what amp and transformers you are using.
  I don't recommend using 6L6's in an amp designed for 6V6's.you need to increase the load from the speakers to do so safely and then the rest of the amp isn't set up for it.
  For a nice Fender super Reverb the 6L6GC tube needs to see about 41ma to sound good IMHO.but then again it may not float your boat.
Some new production tubes don't like higher currents and nearly all tube sellers pass around propaganda about less current = better tone and longer life.
  They have to warranty the tubes after all.Warranty claims and tone do not necessarily equate.
Bias for tone within the parameters.
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Offline tubeswell

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 01:26:12 pm »
AFAICT the Sovtek 6L6WXT (a.k.a. "5881") is identical to the Russian 6P3S-e (albeit the latter has a slightly different envelope in that the base is wafer thin).

Info on the 6P3S-e states it is a 20W tube. (So is the 6P3S, but that is a different tube to the 6P3S-e). Both types are spec'd on this page:

http://www.rutubes.com/index.php?productID=176

and there is a little more info/commentary here:

http://timelesson.blogspot.com/2010/02/6p3-beam-power-tetrode.html

Personally I have found that the 6P3S does not handle higher voltages, but the 6P3S-e seems to take anything you can throw at it (within reason). JM2CW
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Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 01:46:11 pm »
Now it really depends on the amp when you are talking about plate voltages.You say yours is 410v depending on where it's biased.That doesn't mean a whole lot to me without some figures and what amp and transformers you are using.
 

 Good point, sorry.

The OT is from MOJO and is marked 6L6. It must be out of production because they don't sell it anymore and didn't have specs for it. I measured the voltage and calculated the impedance to be 4K2~4K5  depending on what tap I measured from. My meter my be inaccurate so let's just call it 4K2 which is right for fender stuff. The voltage varied as I tuned in the bias, I think because the tube rect sags more under a bigger load. With the tubes drawing 33mA it was 410V Higher voltage as I biased cooler. It's wired like a 5F6-A but with the first two tubes series.

 So basically I have 2 Sovtek 6L6WXT+, a 4K2 transformer, running at 33mA at 410V. Sound 'bout right?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 02:16:56 pm by jeff »

Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 02:02:02 pm »
  I don't recommend using 6L6's in an amp designed for 6V6's.you need to increase the load from the speakers to do so safely and then the rest of the amp isn't set up for it.


 I guess this is what I'm asking. Just because a tube can handle more watts doesn't mean you should always run it at 70%. I was using the 6L6 in a 6V6 amp as an example. Yes, the 6L6 could be run hotter than the 6V6s without damage but with the 6V6 amps voltage and OT shouldn't it be run cooler than 70% of it's max? Run at the same current the 6V6s would draw? Not necessaceraly trying to get more power by using the 6L6's but using the 6L6s in a 6V6 circuit.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 02:19:04 pm by jeff »

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 02:07:45 pm »
Your question does not make sense.Fender did not ever run a 6L6 in an amp meant for 6V6's.And no,they did not run 6L6GC's with a 19 watt tube in mind.
  Any amp manufacturer who wants the amp to last past a warranty period often sets the amps up with low current draw,not because of any ratings,but so the tubes last longer.
  They don't always sound good but they don't sound bad either.
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Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 02:38:29 pm »
   All I was saying about the 6V6/6L6 is; say you have a 6V6 amp: 420V, 8K load. Is there any way to run 6L6 at 420V with a 8K load by lowering the bias? You're not getting the full potential of using 6L6s but to be set up correctly you wouldn't be running at 70%.
I guess I'm getting hung up on the 70% of max rule.

OK comparing 6V6s to 6L6s is a bad example, this is a better example. The 6L6GC says it has the same charactertstics as the 6L6GB but with a higher rating. So if an amp is set up to run 6L6GBs at 70% the max and you use 6L6GCs you would have to run them at the same current since their charateristics are the same. So the 6L6GC wouldn't be running at 70% of their max dissapation rating. Therefore it is not always best to run a tube at 70% of its max diss rating.

6L6GB is a 19W tube, 6L6GC is a 30W
at 460V a 19W tube running at 70% of its max would draw 28.91mA and a 30W tube running at 70% of its max would draw 45.65mA. So if the tubes have the same charateristics they should be run at the same current to get the same output but running the 6L6CGs at 28.91mA would be only 44% its max.


  For a nice Fender super Reverb the 6L6GC tube needs to see about 41ma to sound good IMHO.

OK so a SR runs at 460V, 460V @ 41mA is 18.86W, 18.86W is 62.86% of 30W so there's more to biasing than 70% of the tubes max. That's what I don't get.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 03:27:31 pm by jeff »

Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 03:15:52 pm »
If the amp was designed for 6L6's then the current is not an issue.I bias for tone,not for some sense of safety,although i don't intentionally want to burn up a set of tubes.

Current is the issue. Biasing adjusts the amount of current flow through the tube. Am I missing something.

Alright I'm getting way off track here.

I have 6L6wxt+ with a CT 4K2 load at 410V. How do I determine what the current draw of each tube should be?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 03:48:28 pm by jeff »

Offline sluckey

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 03:38:26 pm »
Quote
6L6GB is a 19W tube, 6L6GC is a 30W
That's all the info I need.

For fixed bias, I'd set either tube set at 70%. IOW, set the 6L6GB to 13W static diss. or set the 6L6GC to 21W static diss.

For cathode bias, I'd set either tube set to about 90%. IOW, set the 6L6GB to 17W static diss. or set the 6L6GC to 27W static diss.

A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 03:50:23 pm »
 That's what I don't get. If they're the same tube but one's a 30W and one's a 19W how can 70% be right for both?

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 04:18:34 pm »
Because the 70% rule applies to EACH TUBE.
 So if you use a 6L6GB that says maximum of 19 watts,70% of that is 13 watts.Understand?
The same for the 6L6GC. It's maximum is 30 watts,so 70% of that is 21 watts. Get it now?
  The idea is 70% of the MAXIMUM ratings is a safe level to run the tube.It's a generic figure but it seems to work across the board to keep new production tubes alive for a while.Again,it's just a guideline and the amp may sound better at lower settings,so don't just pop em in and bias at 70%,experiment a little.
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Offline jerrydyer

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 04:29:54 pm »
That's what I don't get. If they're the same tube but one's a 30W and one's a 19W how can 70% be right for both?

because its %70 of 19 watts or %70 of 30w..

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Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2011, 06:19:57 pm »
So if you use a 6L6GB that says maximum of 19 watts,70% of that is 13 watts.Understand?
The same for the 6L6GC. It's maximum is 30 watts,so 70% of that is 21 watts. Get it now?
I get it, I understand what 70% means.

I don't mean how can 13=21 I mean how can biasing a 6L6 at 13W give you the same result as biasing a 6L6 at 21W with the same transformer?
 
 But both the 19W 6L6GB and the 30W 6L6GC have the same charateristics. Basically there the same tube but one has a higher rating. Picture a SE amp for example because it's easier to illustrate my point. Say you're going to use the 6L6GB and are going to run the tube at 100%. You know your voltage so you pick an OT load line that will cross your bias point and be center biased for maximum output. Now if you stick in the 6L6GC you either need to run it at less than 100% to retain the same bias point or you need to use a different output transformer that will keep it center biased.

If you run a 6L6GB at 28.91mA or a 6L6GC at 28.91mA they will react exactally the same but one is at 70% one is at 44%

If you run a 6L6GB at 70% and a 6L6GC at 70% they will react differently and I can't see how both can be matched to the same load with the same results.

I don't know as much about AB pushpull but does 410V with a 4K2 OT suggest an idle current?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 06:46:37 pm by jeff »

Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2011, 06:24:53 pm »
OMG! You do NOT need to select a different OT! You get an OT that can handle the wattage the amp will produce plus a little bit and go with it.
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Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2011, 06:58:09 pm »
Does it at least make sence to think a 6L6GB at 70% is the same thing as a 6L6GC at 44%?

My transformer is marked 6L6 and I don't know if it means 19W 6L6GB or; is the 30W 6L6GC is so common now that 6L6 is assumed to mean 6L6GC. If the former is true I'm ok. If it's the later and the sovtek 6L6WXT+ is only a 20W tube, I'll buy a set of 6L6GCs.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 07:13:42 pm by jeff »

Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2011, 07:09:36 pm »
 I think were coming at this from different angles. Yes you get the most power from a PP amp running the tubes at 70% of the max so amps are designed with transformers that will give you the most output. So when you put the right tubes in the right amp you bias to 70%. But I don't know if this transformer was designed for 19W 6L6s or 30W 6L6s it just says 6L6 on it. I'm thinking this makes a big difference. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe I'm over thinking.

All I know is that I have a B+ of 410 and an OT of 4K2. Does this suggest a 19W or a 30W tube?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 07:13:53 pm by jeff »

Offline 67polara

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2011, 08:17:52 pm »
If I'm reading what I think, you think that if you change the tubes you need to change the output tranny?  Tubes are not an exact science you can vary the parts a lot and in the end the sound is all that counts.  Bias the amp to your ears not some text book setting that may or may not have anything to do with the sound you hear.  Just know your limits and stay somewhere in between. 70%, 44% who cares if it sounds good it's good, only difference is tubes may last longer with one bias verses the other.

Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2011, 10:31:31 pm »
If I'm reading what I think, you think that if you change the tubes you need to change the output tranny? 
  Yes.
 Running a pair of 6L6GBs at 70% in an amp designed to use 6L6GC is the same thing as running a pair of 6L6GCs at 44%. I don't think that you have to change OT if you change tubes 6L6GC for 6L6GC or 6L6GB for 6L6GB. But I think that a 30W 6L6GC run at 70% needs a different transformer than a 19W 6L6GB biased at 70%. Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't make sense to me if:

          (for 460V)
1) a 6L6GB biased at 70% runs at 28.91mA
2)  tubes are correctly biased at 70%
3) a 6L6GB is correctly biased at 28.91mA
4) a 6L6GC has the same charateristics as a 6L6GB but has a higher rating
5) a 6L6GC at 28.91mA is equal to a 6L6GB at 28.91mA
7) a 6L6GC  running at 28.91mA is biased at 44%
8) a 6L6GC is correctly biased at 44%

What I'm trying to say is doesn't a 30W tube at 70% need a different transformer than a 19W tube at 70%. Add "with a specific load" after 1-8. I mean isn't that why we use a different load for a 12W EL84 than for a 30W 6L6GC?

This is my problem: I have a transformer marked only 6L6, I don't know if it's for 6L6GCs or GBs. All I know is it's 4K2 and I'm running 410V do I use 6L6GCs or 6L6GBs?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 11:55:32 pm by jeff »

Offline Tone Junkie

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2011, 11:32:44 pm »
Jeff you can use either one as long as they can take 410 volts. I like to have mine start at 60% bias then have someone play it and adjust by ear then check to make shure its not over the 70% percent the last 2 sounded best one at 63% the other at 67% I take notes of everything because Im forgetfull.
You are over thinking the whole thing like phsyconoodler said.
Thanks Bill

Offline Willabe

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 12:00:41 am »
If I'm reading what I think, you think that if you change the tubes you need to change the output tranny?  Tubes are not an exact science you can vary the parts a lot and in the end the sound is all that counts.  Bias the amp to your ears not some text book setting that may or may not have anything to do with the sound you hear.  Just know your limits and stay somewhere in between. 70%, 44% who cares if it sounds good it's good, only difference is tubes may last longer with one bias verses the other.

FWIW, I think 67 polara hit the "Nail on the head!"         


           Brad            :think1: 

Offline Frankenamp

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2011, 12:11:52 am »
My transformer is marked 6L6 and I don't know if it means 19W 6L6GB or; is the 30W 6L6GC is so common now that 6L6 is assumed to mean 6L6GC. If the former is true I'm ok. If it's the later and the sovtek 6L6WXT+ is only a 20W tube, I'll buy a set of 6L6GCs.

I would make the assumption that the Mojo transformer is of relatively recent 'vintage' (say 1970's or later) 6L6's. This would dictate that the designers would have had the GC version in mind. It's probably good for 50-60 watts at least.   You can run which ever tubes you desire. Remember, transformers work on ratios, so that if you present  8 ohms to the secondary windings you get your 4K2 give or take... this can be tweaked by using different secondary taps if you want to change the reflected impedance that the tube sees.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       
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Offline jeff

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 12:29:34 am »
Sorry you got that post in while I was writing.
Sorry guys, I'll just try 33.24mA and see if it sounds good.
Thanks for the advise. I just got a thick head.

Ok I guess I'm trying to find out how to pick an optimal load for and AB amp. I know for a SE you generally use V2/watt. So at 400V I'd use a 8K5 load for a 6L6GB and a 5K3 for the 6L6GC. seems like a difference to me.
70% gets the most out of the tube and the right load gets the most out of the amp so if I could calculate the best load for:
 30W 6L6GC run at 410V at 70% AB
 19W 6L6GB run at 410V at 70% AB
Then I can see which is closer to my 4K2 transformer and use that tube.

Maybe bias isn't as important as I thought and I'm just driving myself(and you guys) crazy.


Just out of curiosity does anyone have a simulator program you can input 410V 4K2 OT with 6L6GC and 6L6GB just so I can see what the difference is?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 12:47:15 am by jeff »

Offline PRR

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 12:45:42 am »
> My transformer is marked 6L6 and I don't know if it means....

If it was made in the last 30+ years, it means Fender 5881/6L6GC.

Aside from a few late-1950s amps, Fender's "6L6" amps have always expected tubes beefier than the original metal 6L6 or the lamer 6L6G variants.

At 410V, you won't go wrong idling 35mA-45mA.

BTW: IMHO, not all "30 Watt" 6L6GCs are actially long-term safe at 30W. I have run 42W 6550 at 39W for days rock steady, but several 6L6GC got drifty at 25W.

> I have a B+ of 410 and an OT of 4K2. Does this suggest a 19W or a 30W tube?

This is exactly 5F6A Bassman specs. 5F6A needs 5881 or better. 5881 is nominally 24 Watts, but that's conservative; no matter, because NOS 5881 are rare. Any "6L6 type" sold by honest GUITAR AMP dealers will handle 5881 chores OK.

> doesn't a 30W tube at 70% need a different transformer than a 19W tube at 70%.

No.

> how can 70% be right for both?

This is IDLE condition. Has little to do with load or max-power condition.

In Class AB, the goal at idle is to run far above dead-cold, but well short of melting.

It's really not that critical.

If you idled a typical AB power-amp at 5mA, it would be fine when played LOUD, but hoarse on faint sounds. The tube has to idle with enough current to "wake up" on soft sounds.

If you idled a 19W tube at 400V 100mA (40W), life would be very short.

There's actually an optimum idle for low distortion on small signals. But on most over-volted stage-amps, this optimum is actually above rated dissipation. And the optimum is quite broad: running much lower current is only a bit more THD on the meter.

If everything else is perfect, a hi-volt guitar amp played soft may sound "smoothest" with idle at 100% of rated dissipation. But 70% sounds about the same. And things are not "perfect": we use too-large grid resistors, we beat our tubes, they get gassy, the bias drifts. Aiming for 70% gives a lot of leeway for drift, without compromise on soft smoothness.

That's for fix-bias AB amps. In Class A, what you get out is at most half of what it idles at. _IF_ the stage is correctly proportioned (not a hodge-podge of stuff behind the bench), then the first-draft goal is to idle exactly at 100% of rated dissipation.

Then +/- allowance for operating life. If use it a lot and you have to take it to a serviceman to replace tubes, you might aim 90% of rating; if you have to go out on a dog-sled to change radar tubes in the arctic, you might aim for 50% of rated dissipation (and accept 50% output or double the tubes). If you have good-paying gigs and can change your own tubes, 110% even 120% of book "Design Max" rating is acceptable if the amp is designed to use the extra input.

Your question about 6V6 is confusing because the 4K load in your hand is too heavy for 6V6, is a stretch for original 6L6, really onlly makes sense for 5881 and descendants or work-alike such as 6L6GC.

You can drop 6L6 in most 6V6 amps, and get 6V6 power (maybe 10% higher), and may as well let the 6L6 run at 6V6 conditions (9W-14W idle dissipation). If designed for 6V6, there's nothing to gain from cooking 6L6 harder than the 6V6 did. (You should check for PT heat with the added 0.9A heater load, but this is usually insignificant.)

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 01:00:55 am »
But doesn't changing the bias and changing the load change when the tube shuts off? Say you increase the bias so the tube shuts off earlier can't you adjust for that by changing the load line to reproduce the whole signal?

Also is 5881 a different tube than the 6L6? I thought 5881 was the military # for a 6L6. Like 7025 is for a 12AX7.

I guess I don't know enough about AB and am trying to thing in SE terms.

I gotta go to bed, my brain hurts.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 01:10:22 am by jeff »

Offline Frankenamp

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 10:12:53 am »
But doesn't changing the bias and changing the load change when the tube shuts off? Say you increase the bias so the tube shuts off earlier can't you adjust for that by changing the load line to reproduce the whole signal?

Also is 5881 a different tube than the 6L6? I thought 5881 was the military # for a 6L6. Like 7025 is for a 12AX7.

I guess I don't know enough about AB and am trying to thing in SE terms.

I gotta go to bed, my brain hurts.

5881 is a 6L6 toughened up for industrial duty (think servo power supply for a Hardinge lathe...) Physically, it is a stronger tube- takes a licking, keeps on ticking. Or, 6L6 = Chivvy Silverado (base model); 5881 = same Chivvy Silverado with duallies and a tow package. Same idear as a 6V6 (12-14 watt tube for your Hudson's radio that will play Dave Clark 5 going over potholes at 40mph) VS a  5992 (12-14 watt tube that will handle eight miles high at ten G's)
This problem calls for a bigger hammer!

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 11:06:11 am »
 Thanks for putting up with me last night. I think I need to read more about AB operation.

    Thanks
     Jeff

I got some reading to do.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 02:31:05 pm by jeff »

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2011, 01:10:51 pm »
I'm not trying to hijack the thread but I couldn't help noticing PRR's post about (among other things) dropping 6L6 tubes in a circuit designed for 6V6s.
I have two amps with OTs designed for 6V6s, cathode biased. I thought I'd be very clever by having a switched parallel power resistor in both to increase idle current for 6L6s. But is that not a good idea? It sounds good, anyway.   

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2011, 01:25:21 pm »
I'm not trying to hijack the thread but I couldn't help noticing PRR's post about (among other things) dropping 6L6 tubes in a circuit designed for 6V6s.
I have two amps with OTs designed for 6V6s, cathode biased. I thought I'd be very clever by having a switched parallel power resistor in both to increase idle current for 6L6s. But is that not a good idea? It sounds good, anyway.   

If the tubes like it, its okay.
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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2011, 03:42:32 pm »
But doesn't changing the bias and changing the load change when the tube shuts off? Say you increase the bias so the tube shuts off earlier can't you adjust for that by changing the load line to reproduce the whole signal?

Thinking of load lines will likely make the process of understanding class AB more difficult, rather than less difficult.

For class AB (and even real-world class B), the idle point does not lie on the load line. This is true and makes sense if you grasp the concept of a "composite load line" formed by push-pull tubes.

We might have to start another thread to describe this idea. You'll find it explained in some of the old tube books. RDH3 and 4 can be found in the Library of Information on this site. Other books, which perhaps describe this concept in terms that are easier to initially understand, can be found on Pete Millett's website.

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2011, 12:41:55 pm »
> I guess I don't know enough about AB and am trying to thing in SE terms.

Correct.

In fix-bias push-pull, you set the B+ and load (and tubes and G2 voltage) for MAXimum output conditions. When at MAX output, the idle bias hardly matters.

Then (assuming you -ever- run less than max power) you pick a happy idle bias. You may idle very hot, even into class A (neither tube ever cuts-off). You may bias very cold (both tubes cut-off at idle), class B. Very-hot has only small advantage over simple class A. Very cold get the most power from costly tubes and also best battery life (in farm-radios) but sounds rough when played soft. AB is anything in between.

There is some small logic in "70%". If you play test-tones, and cold bias, tube dissipation increases from no signal to 50% power then drops a bit at 100% power. If you size the tubes and load to hit 100% of rated dissipation at the 50% power point, they will be 70% dissipation at 100% output. If you also, arbitrarily, set the idle around 70%, the soft-sound quality is about as good as it gets and the tube dissipation runs 70%-100%-70%, averaging say 80% in hard speech/music use.

6L6 and friends were SUPER popular and often abused. RCA didn't mind, they sold replacements. Tung-Sol saw an opportunity to sell an up-rated tube, 5881, which would live longer in sockets which were killing 6L6.

6L6GC was originally a very different tube made for TV. It turned out to be better and cheaper than traditional 6L6 construction, so GE packaged it as a 6L6 replacement.

Everybody from Nazis to USSR copied 6L6, sometimes in a tougher form since most applications were military. The Russian "6L6 equivalents" are based on these types. Materials and markets have changed, and some are as tough as 6L6GC.

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2011, 07:54:34 pm »
 The part that's cooking my noodle is the data sheets for the 6L6GC and 6L6GB seem to have the same data: voltage, load, etc. But one's a 30W tube one's a 19W.

I will read up more about AB then ask my questions.

 I think my brain's wired wrong. I should just set it and play.
I'm trying to think of this as a math problem. If you show me 1+2=3, I can understand that. It makes sense to me I with II is III. That's just how I think. If I know why 1+2=3, I can figure out why 3-2=1 and why 3-1=2 and even learn that 3+2=5.

Right now to me this sounds more like an English problem. Take for example the letters "_ature". Put a M in front of it and it sounds like mature. Put a N in front of it and it sounds like nature. I can't see any reason to it. I can't yet see why, this is just the way it is, and has always been. If it sounds right then it is right. Now, I'm sure there's some explination as to why, the origin of the word or the nature of language but right now I don't fully understand it. This is why I need to do more reading on the subject.

 It's like I'm asking to know how the universe was created but I lack the understanding to fully grasp the concept. I'm looking for a 1+2=3 answer when in reality it's much more complicated then that. For now I should just accept that the invisible man with the long white beard and white robes made it in 6 days and be happy. I should be mature enough to realize that right now, most amps are designed to run at 70% and "if it sounds good it is good" is all I need to know. But it's in my nature to disect things and learn why and how.

Thanks for the help, I'll be back when I'm more informed.
                  Jeff


« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 08:17:45 pm by jeff »

Offline tubeswell

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2011, 12:05:27 am »
Different tubes are 'designed' to handle certain power ratings before they heat up and melt. Current x Voltage = wattage (power), so if you have either more current or more voltage or both, you will end up with more power, which is accompanied by heat, which is emitted from the tube as a by-product of its operation (the main prodcut being a voltage swing to drive the load). The better the tube is at dispersing the heat energy it accumulates as part of running the tube, the longer the tube will last.

That's why you shouldn't exceed the tube's power rating (that was given to it by its particular manufacturer, who ostensibly did destruction test on various batches of tubes back in the day, to 'assure' consumers of the product of its reliable operating characteristics).

If you supply a tube with too much current, or too much voltage, or both, it will reach the point of thermal destruction (or in simple terms, catch fire/burn up etc). Similarly if you run the tube without the load (resistance) that it is designed to carry, it will ultimately melt faster, because the energy you are supplying to the tube is not getting used up on any work, so the energy builds up and builds up until the tube burns.

When we bias the tube, we are trying to set a point at which the power input (in current and voltage) is 'balanced' with the power output (the work done in driving load + the heat that is dispersed as the by-product of inputting all that input power) to the point that the tube's physical ability to disperse heat can cope with ensuring the tubes reliable operation. (The bias also serves to set the ability of the tube to deliver a clean signal)

Well that in simple terms is how I see it. Someone with a better grasp of it may have a more useful explanation.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 12:25:06 am by tubeswell »
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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2011, 02:50:51 pm »
Let me see if I'm getting this.

Say you have a amp designed for 6L6GBs running at 70% to get maximum output.
At 400V idle current is 33.25mA.
If you put in 6L6GC at 33.25mA the amp will see this as the exact same thing but now we have same wiggle room.

As you slowly change the bias you're not increasing power but are rather pushing the tubes more and more into class A. They're on for more of the signal.

If you increase the current to 52.5mA we're now at 70% of the 6L6CGs rating but we're not getting anymore power, the tubes are just on for a bigger % of the signal.

Can we now start to adjust the load so we're slowly moving away from class A back towards class AB, increasing power.

This is what I was thinking when I said I thought that a 6L6GC set up for max power at 70% would need a different transformer than a 6L6GB set up for max power at 70%.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 03:11:01 pm by jeff »

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2011, 07:20:11 am »
Jeff check out Amplifier class's (A, AB, C and D) . I think your over thinking it . The 70% is a bias point to base off of it is not set standard, your amp(tubes) may sound good (to your ears) anywhere from 60% to 85% . The 6L6GB is similar to the more common 6L6GC, but has lower ratings (maximum plate and screen voltages 360V and 270V vs. 500V and 450V, and maximum plate and screen dissipations 19W and 2.5W vs. 30W and 5W). All of the curves for the 6L6GB are applicable to the 6L6GC .

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2011, 08:19:47 am »
I think your over thinking it .
Over thinking is an understatement.

I put in my tubes and biased to 33mA sounds great, and I'm happy.

 I know I'm asking a lot of stupid questions but I was using this forum to ask not "How do I get my amp to work?" but more to understand "How do tubes work?"

Sorry for taking up all your time.
             Jeff

P.S. Does my last post make any sense at all, or am I on the wrong track?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 08:47:10 am by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2011, 08:44:34 am »
The part that's cooking my noodle is the data sheets for the 6L6GC and 6L6GB seem to have the same data: voltage, load, etc. But one's a 30W tube one's a 19W.

You found a key point here. The data sheets do have the exact same information.

Why? Bottom-line up front: it's just too much work to re-do everything for the new manual.

If you read the front matter of an RCA tube manual, it gives design examples for class A and class AB output stages, but uses a 2A3 triode and an unspecified pentode. For the triode, there are convenient equations to use as a starting point, given a tube and a supply voltage. However, with a pentode, they recommend drawing multiple load lines arbitrarily and calculating the power output and distortion for each. Then you look at which line gave the best results in the end; that also implies different supply voltages and idle points. What a pain!

Say you just wrote an 80-page paper for work or some college class. A reviewer reads it over and says you need to change what's written on pages 56-58. Do you rewrite the whole thing? Hell, no! You makes the changes on those 2 pages and call it good.

Tube manuals came out about every other year. They didn't rewrite all the sheets, or even use an updated tube for the examples in the front (the 2A3 probably was considered a relic in the early 50's). They just updated the relevant specs on the sheets that needed it. But the typical conditions took somebody time and thought to come up with a set of optimum circumstances to show off the tube. I believe they didn't take time to rewrite those, even though the newer version's capabilities were much greater.

So what's the deal with 70%? I feel the issue at this point is that you're trying to reconcile differences among a lot of sources of information. They're all correct, right?

Maybe.

Ponder the 1937 6L6 data sheet.

Look carefully at the conditions given for class AB1. The zero-signal plate currents are for 2 tubes, so divide them in half. 4 conditions are given:
1. Self-bias, 400v plate, 48mA per tube: 19.2w idle, 100% dissipation
2. Self-bias, 400v plate, 56mA per tube: 22.4w idle, 117% dissipation
3. Fixed-bias, 400v plate, 44mA per tube: 17.6w idle, 92.6% dissipation
4. Fixed-bias, 400v plate, 51mA per tube: 20.4w idle, 107% dissipation

Way over 70%, but screen voltage is also less than plate voltage in each case.

We are also not talking about over-volted guitar amps. The later trend became to raise the plate voltage for more output power, and have screens near plate voltage for ease of power supply design, but that means you have to increase the bias to keep the tubes from melting at idle and/or during the signal cycle.

Where did "35mA" or 70% come from for guitar amps? Gerald Weber wrote in one later book that people always asked him for a specific idle current to bias their tubes (note, this is also after he had a different book out saying we needed to "blackface" every amp, to have an adjustable bias pot instead of a bias balance pot). He said he picked 35mA because it was likely low enough not to cause problems in the majority of amps.

I don't remember exactly when the "70% rule" became popular. I notice that if you assume a 19w 6L6 and a 24w 5881, then with 420v plate and 35mA idle, that corresponds to 77.4% for 6L6 and 61.3% for (original) 5881. I think someone got smart and said "halfway is the place to be." But PRR's explanation is probably most-correct, since it is an interesting coincidence that the square-root of 2 is .7071, and you could turn that into talking about working at 70.71%.

Rambling aside, there are too many variables at play to give such a simple rule as 70%. The idea is to be able to give a safe recommendation for those folks who demand a simple answer. "Bias it to ...."

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2011, 09:08:41 am »
As you slowly change the bias you're not increasing power but are rather pushing the tubes more and more into class A. They're on for more of the signal.

If you increase the current to 52.5mA we're now at 70% of the 6L6CGs rating but we're not getting anymore power, the tubes are just on for a bigger % of the signal.

How to you change the bias to decrease idle current? You apply a bigger (more negative) bias voltage to the control grid.

Note that the incoming signal's positive swing adds to the voltage present on the control grid. If you have -42v present, then if the peak of the incoming signal reaches 42v, the grid is momentarily at 0v. The point that the control grid is at 0v is often looked at as a limit in old tube lore, because the grid starts drawing current and distortion greatly increases.

So we can think of our maximum clean power output (for our given supply voltage, idle bias, plate load) as occurring when we drive the grid all the way to 0v. Said another way, we can't keep applying a bigger signal and getting more power output.

Now think about class A. If we know nothing else, it is idling at higher current than class AB. More idle current means a smaller bias voltage (maybe -24v). You could then also say that means a smaller input signal until the grid is driven to 0v (24v input signal instead of 42v). With a same loadline, the plate voltage and plate current do not swing as far with this new, smaller input signal. That means less power output.

So ultimately, the point of class AB is more power output than is possible with class A. But running class A and idling at 100% meant that designers had to operate at relatively low supply voltages, so the tube did not melt during the signal cycle. Increasing the bias voltage and lowering the idle current may allow the tubes to shut off during some part of the cycle, which is what class AB means. Now, since the tubes can shut off during some part of the cycle and dissipate less heat on average, during the entire signal cycle, we can increase the supply voltage. That allows the tubes to have a wider swing of plate voltage (and maybe plate current) during the signal cycle. More current swing * more voltage swing = more power output.

You can apply a small enough signal to a class AB amp that none of the output tubes turn off during their cycle. You do that simply by turning down the volume control. Is that "class A?" Strictly, I guess so, because the tubes never turn off. But high supply voltages (and different plate loads) are still there, and the tubes won't behave exactly like they would if you worked at a lower supply voltage (that is, design the amp from the ground up as a class A amp).

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2011, 09:11:31 am »
People say I'm crazy doing what I'm doing,
Well they give me all kinds of warnings to save me from ruin,
When I say that I'm o.k. they look at me kind of strange,
Surely your not happy now you no longer play the game,


I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round,
I really love to watch them roll,
No longer riding on the merry-go-round,
I just have to let it go.

I just have tooooooooooooooo
let it go.

I keep trying to put this down but I keep pickin' at it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 09:36:25 am by jeff »

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2011, 09:20:16 am »
OK that makes sense to me(A/AB)

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2011, 09:25:11 am »
Ponder the 1937 6L6 data sheet.

Look carefully at the conditions given for class AB1. The zero-signal plate currents are for 2 tubes, so divide them in half. 4 conditions are given:
1. Self-bias, 400v plate, 48mA per tube: 19.2w idle, 100% dissipation
2. Self-bias, 400v plate, 56mA per tube: 22.4w idle, 117% dissipation
3. Fixed-bias, 400v plate, 44mA per tube: 17.6w idle, 92.6% dissipation
4. Fixed-bias, 400v plate, 51mA per tube: 20.4w idle, 107% dissipation

Way over 70%, but screen voltage is also less than plate voltage in each case.



I take this to mean that the biasing has more to do with how the tube operates in a circuit than a percentage of the tubes maximum rating.

Rambling aside, there are too many variables at play to give such a simple rule as 70%. The idea is to be able to give a safe recommendation for those folks who demand a simple answer. "Bias it to ...."

Exactaly, at this point I'm rambling. I'm not a tube amp designer and 70% is good enough to get the amp to work and not blow up. Who cares if it's exactaly maximum power the point is good sound.

I have to admit my amp does sound good. Instead of driving myself crazy I should get back to playing.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 09:38:18 am by jeff »

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2011, 09:36:57 am »
I take this to mean that the biasing has more to do with how the tube operates in a circuit than a percentage of the tubes maximum rating.

The 6L6 was design by a guy working for RCA. What I wanted to communicate with that chart was that they guys who designed the tubes didn't adhere to a 70% rule, because there was no such thing at the time. The "rule" is a more recent (maybe last 12 years?) invention.

I'll admit that it does serve to keep us out of trouble most of the time.

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2011, 09:42:19 am »
 I see what you're saying. 70% and under keeps us out of trouble.

I should just keep it under 70% to keep from doing damage and adjust it to sound best. I should forget about trying to set it up "right"(a misguided ideal that maximum power is "right")and focus on how it sounds. Biasing a preamp tube "wrong"(not for max power) sounds good. After all we're after good sound, not max power. It's not about "right" or "wrong" it's about sound and if it sounds good it's set up right. My amp sounds great and I should enjoy it. I'm looking at a rainbow and thinking "how is that made?" instead of sitting back and enjoying it's beauty.

   Thanks for all the help.
              Jeff
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 10:19:05 am by jeff »

Offline rzenc

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2011, 10:46:59 am »
since it is an interesting coincidence that the square-root of 2 is .7071, and you could turn that into talking about working at 70.71%.

square-root (2) = 1,4142135623730950488016887242097

cos 45° = sen 45° = ((square-root 2)/2) = 0,70710678118654752440084436210485


Rzenc

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2011, 01:13:36 pm »
 I was just watching a PBS show about evolution and this hit me like a ton of bricks.


Ponder the 1937 6L6 data sheet.

Look carefully at the conditions given for class AB1. The zero-signal plate currents are for 2 tubes, so divide them in half. 4 conditions are given:
1. Self-bias, 400v plate, 48mA per tube: 19.2w idle, 100% dissipation
2. Self-bias, 400v plate, 56mA per tube: 22.4w idle, 117% dissipation
3. Fixed-bias, 400v plate, 44mA per tube: 17.6w idle, 92.6% dissipation
4. Fixed-bias, 400v plate, 51mA per tube: 20.4w idle, 107% dissipation

Way over 70%, but screen voltage is also less than plate voltage in each case.

Idling at around 100% was the best use of the 6L6s curves but no so good for tube life.
The 70% rule is to get the best life out of the tube, not power.
A new tube was developed that had the same curves but could idle at 70% instead of 100% for longer life.
70% of 30W is 21W which is right around where these are idling.

Thus the 6L6 died out and the 6L6GC flurished.

Survival of the fittest.

 I think I see my error of my ways. I assumed 70% of a 6L6GB would give max power and that's equal to 44% of a 6L6GC instead of considering 70% of a 6L6GC would give you max power and that's equal to 110% of a 6L6GB. We bias 6L6GBs at 70% so they don't blow up.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 02:59:36 pm by jeff »

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: 6L6/6L6GC/6L6WXT
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2011, 05:11:49 pm »
since it is an interesting coincidence that the square-root of 2 is .7071, and you could turn that into talking about working at 70.71%.

square-root (2) = 1,4142135623730950488016887242097

cos 45° = sen 45° = ((square-root 2)/2) = 0,70710678118654752440084436210485


Rzenc

Duh. I meant 1/(SqRt 2). But you knew what I meant. :dontknow:

 


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Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program