Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 08, 2025, 02:39:08 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Hot VVR Mosfet  (Read 7147 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TIMBO

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2879
  • Blues Forever
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Hot VVR Mosfet
« on: May 18, 2011, 02:44:12 am »
Hi guys, doing some final tiding up on the MSJ. It has a VVR with a heatsink on it about 2"' square and it gets very hot to hot to touch. I know that some of you guys have been bolting them to the chassis. I don't have the space to be able to do this so i got the largest i could that would fit on the board. They say that its thermal resistance is 7.5 deg C/W what ever that means. So is the mosfet running too hot. Thanks

Offline 38Super

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 07:22:28 am »
The bottom line for reliability is to insure the power device you're using is not operating above manufacturer's specified temperature.  Can find that info in data sheet online.  Can you devise a way to measure maximum operating temp of this device? (occurs at max power dissipation = I x (Vdrain-Vsource))  Most power devices should be rated to at least 150C - that's been my experience with automotive commercial products, anyway.

Also be aware that semiconductor device life will be shorter if you run 'em hotter.  Modern semiconductors have a very long wear out life, but hotter temperatures will accelerate failure modes, so cooler is better for reliability.

There is a thermal impedance from die to package (theta-junction to case) and from packaged device to ambient (depends on heatsink).  These parameters are a measure of how much self-heating occurs as a function of internal power dissipation.  For example, if your total thermal resistance is 10degC/W, then, 10W power dissipation will cause 100degC temperature rise above ambient temp (temp inside chassis)

cheers,

rob

Offline heresrobert

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 100
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 09:08:52 am »
Timbo,

Are you using a thermal paste or some sort of heat transfer media between the heat sink and the mosfet?

Robert

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2011, 12:21:19 pm »
The heat in the VVR at medium power setting can be up to one-quarter of the heat of the main amp when maxed-out.

Tubes can run a hair hotter than transistors.

It would be reasonable to allocate space for VVR at least one-quarter the size of the main power tubes and the air-space around them.

The fins should be vertical.... in horizontal position the "7.5cW" rating is more like 10cW. A well-greased TO220 joint is maybe 1cW.

I dunno what MSJ is, but I assume your power tubes run 25W-40W dissipation, you could indeed have 10W in the VVR at medium setting. 10W * (10cW+1cW)= 110 degree C rise. Inside a 40 deg C chassis that is 150 deg C. That's too hot to sell to a customer or to rely-upon for your own gigging.

A plate of 1/16" or 0.1" Aluminum 2"x6" would fit near the side wall. This is closer to 4cW, say 5cW with joint, 50 degree rise, 90 degrees C in chassis. Much better. Note there is (usually) 400V on the MOSFET's tab, so there MUST be good insulation. There are mica/silicone TO220 insulators sold for the purpose. Alternatively put the TO220 greased-naked to the plate, go to the auto-parts store for those square nylon inserts for mounting license-plates to support the heatsink.


BTW: sure looks like when it gets dropped off the truck, the VVR could break/bend and hit the fuse-holder. Since nobody checks inside after dropping, this could be a hot-chassis shock risk.

Offline TIMBO

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2879
  • Blues Forever
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2011, 02:36:33 pm »
Thanks, MSJ is a silver jubilee and i calculate that is is running at about 50W.I did use a silicone heat transfer compound. I do like your idea PRR. I am using the NTE2973 as used by Dana Hall and i think he said that 50W is the max for this mosfet.

Offline jojokeo

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
  • Eddie and my zebrawood V in Dave's basement '77
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2011, 04:19:04 pm »
I am using the NTE2973 as used by Dana Hall and i think he said that 50W is the max for this mosfet.

I don't have any mosfet data w/ me but he sells a contained unit. That may only be suggested because of it's ability to dissipate heat? With an improved sink & heat dissipation ability it may do much more than that?

BTW, I like using the NTE thermopad - it works better and is cleaner than using grease at only a few bucks for 6/pkg or so.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 06:52:33 pm »
> With an improved sink & heat dissipation ability it may do much more than that?

No. On the Infinite heatsink at 25 deg C, 50 Watts in the transistor will raise the internal parts (silicon and seals) to bad temperature.

You can cheat by pulling the heatsink down to freezing... the specs don't actually cover this because it would be "stupidly expensive" and the extreme temperature difference (150 inside, 0 less than a millimeter away) creates as much problem as it solves. CPU-overclockers do things like this, but they have temperature meters and in any case are willing to take risks for mild speed increase.

> 50W is the max for this mosfet.

On an INFINITE heat-sink.

A power device has an electronic part and a thermal (heat) part. Unlike glass tubes, which are both in one, power transistors give you just the electronic bit and you must supply the thermal section.

If you do nothing, a TO220 is good for 1W-2W dissipation.

If you do infinitely well you get (for this part) 50W max dissipation; that will never happen.

(At the 50W level, according to Pease a fair approximation to "infinite heat sink" is an old VW air-cooled engine head; you H-D riders can use your old shovelheads.)

The actual safe dissipation declines with temperature. 50W at 25 deg C (room temp), _zero_ Watts at 150 deg C, so 40W at 125deg C, 30W at 100 C (spit-sizzle), 20W at 75 C, and 10W at 50 deg C.

_IF_ your heatsink were out in the open and vertical, 7.5 C/W, and you put 10W in it, that's 75 deg C rise above 25 deg C air, 100 deg C, the MOSFET is rated 30W at 100 deg C, it is "OK".

However mounted sideways inside a hot chassis, it is probably 100 deg rise above 40 deg C ambient, 140 deg C at the MOSFET, the MOSFET is safe for 4 Watts but dissipating 10 Watts, it is "not OK".

In fact modern silicon will "work" HOT. I've seen a power transistor melt the solder on its legs yet still hold a heavy load in regulation. It will leak a lot so you need a beefy driver.

But the real limit is the package. Steady 150 deg C or thousands of 50 deg C hot/cool cycles will crack the seals, let moisture in, which rots the silicon. And this is treacherous because it will work for hours or months or years, then fail "for no reason".

Here's another real-world benchmark. A transistor/chip "20 Watt" audio amplifier has a heatsink to dissipate 10 Watts. Look around your scrap-heap, see what is used for small practice-amps and hi-fis. That's a bit generous because audio amps run hot/warm/hot with the beat and your VVR will run more steady; OTOH a tranny-amp has no other heat in the box while yours is under hot glass.

Another path is CPU heatsinks. These are usually fan-blown, which is noise and power-hassle and eventual failure. But they work good. (I put that solder-melting regulator on a CPU sink and it ran just-hot for years.) There are thermostat fans which run silent, in this case at full-power and at very-low power, then run for the medium-power condition where the noise may be no-probem. Of course a thermstat is another part to fail.

> silver jubilee

i.e., another two-EL34 max-power monster? 50W max output means about 80W of total power demand. When VVR is turned to half voltage the current goes to half, power goes to 1/4, an equal amount is dropped in the VVR. 80W/4= 20 Watts possible dissipation in the VVR MOSFET.

You need to stay under 75 deg C at the MOSFET. Inside a 40 deg Chassis you have only 35 deg C allowable rise. 35C/20W= 1.75 degrees C per watt heat rating. This is a BIG heatsink.

You want the sink from a "40 Watt" tranny amp, a P-100 sink with fan, or a recent (big) Pentium sink with no fan but ample air-space.

> I am using the NTE2973

Good. The NTE2973 is in the new-fangled fully-insulated case. The tab won't shock you (do shrink-tube any leg you might lay a finger on). You could glom that right to the side of the chassis, though it appears you have no side on that chassis?

Since you have insulated case, top-mounting may be an option? Better air-space.

BTW: a higher-power MOSFET or more MOSFETs isn't a great answer. You can get a marginal increase of thermal safety by putting less power in each HOT device, but it is still HOT and close to unreliability.

Offline andrew_k

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 103
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2011, 11:38:37 pm »
^ you rock. Thank you  :worthy1:

Offline TIMBO

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2879
  • Blues Forever
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 12:13:54 am »
THAT IS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWSOME  :bravo1:

Offline TIMBO

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2879
  • Blues Forever
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 12:58:37 am »
After a about a 10min play it hardly got warm at all but i will keep an eye on it.Thanks

Offline Tone Junkie

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 861
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 01:17:59 pm »
Now thats a nice big heatsink.   :think1:
Bill

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 03:12:59 pm »
Brain-sprain.

When amp is full-up there's maybe 40W-80W of tube heat in the chassis, nearly zero heat in the MOSFET.

When VVR is turned down way-low, tube heat is way low and VVR heat is not large.

Worst-case is with about half voltage. At this point tube-heat and MOSFET heat are about equal. The tube-heat is about a quarter of the full-up heat. Say 20 Watts. The chassis will NOT be full-hot, as I wrongly assumed. Perhaps closer to 30 deg C than the 40 deg C which I assumed.

The difference is not huge, but in your favor.

> 10min play it hardly got warm at all

It won't (should not) get hot at full-up or when dialed down below Champ levels. Half-Voltage, quarter-power, should be the most heat in VVR.

Put a voltmeter on the VVR output, note the full-up voltage, then dial down to half. Say 450V, dial to 225V. Now beat it.

The very worst case would be some time (20+ minutes) at FULL power to heat the chassis and transformers, then dial to half and play a few minutes. After a few minutes the chassis and PT will cool, but just after dial-down you are heating the VVR while the tubes/PT are still hot.

> a nice big heatsink

Yes. Very ample. I like it.

I think that sink is plenty big for this chore. Maybe could be smaller; but when I try to get away with less I often regret it and make a mangle. Like building a porch: if unsure between 2x4 and 2x6, use the 2x6. If you do 2x4 and it's too springy, it is a real pain to shove 2x6es under after it is done, easily worth the extra buck the first time.

Offline dynaman1

  • SMG
  • Level 2
  • *****
  • Posts: 120
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 06:38:17 pm »
I recently tried a VVR and wound up using a finned heatsink as well. I think mine spec'ed out at 3 C/W. Even with it mounted outside the chassis, it got pretty toasty.

Offline Willabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 10524
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 10:54:05 pm »
Hi dynaman1,

Nice looking build! AC 30?

You wouldn't have a part #, would you. And did you make the bracket that covers the mosfet?


            Thanks,   Brad       :icon_biggrin:   

Offline LooseChange

  • SMG
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 3511
  • Keep it greasy so it goes down easy.
    • Fix Your Darn Amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2011, 06:22:14 am »
I've put this up before. The heat sink is on the shelf at Radio Shack. The Mosfet is on the underside of the chassis. I remove the paint off the chassis and add heat sink compound to the top.  Yes it gets hot but no failure.
Personal experience has found that half power IS the hottest setting.
Call me Dan
www.fydamps.com

Offline dynaman1

  • SMG
  • Level 2
  • *****
  • Posts: 120
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2011, 11:00:09 am »
Hi dynaman1,

Nice looking build! AC 30?

You wouldn't have a part #, would you. And did you make the bracket that covers the mosfet?


            Thanks,   Brad       :icon_biggrin:   


Yes, some call it the Top Boost channel. Others refer to it as a Trainwreck Rocket. There are many more familiar names for this circuit as well.  :icon_biggrin:

I'm sorry, I simply can't figure out exactly which sink I used. There are many identical units too be had, but my method was way overboard and tedious. I initially planned on using exactly the same sink and procedure mentioned by LooseChange. Then I changed my mind in favor of just using a plate of aluminum. Ultimately, I chickened out and ponied up for a dedicated sink.

Offline jojokeo

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
  • Eddie and my zebrawood V in Dave's basement '77
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2011, 11:09:57 am »
Nice build dyna very well laid out. In trying to figure out the controls would it be vol treb bass ppimv presence vvr level?

I simply attached mine to the chassis and it doesn't get warm at all but this is on a SE EL34 @ only 250V amp.

Willabe here's some info to check:

The NTE2973 mosfet package is larger than a TO-220 and is a TO-3P. But there's a range of package sizes in the TO-220 "class" and the TO-3P appears to be the same or close to TO-247 which is lilsted as the size to use for a heatsink (if needed or wanted). The thermo-pad is also listed as TO-3P.

The heatsink suggested is https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=WA-T247-101Evirtualkey58810000virtualkey588-WA-T247-101E
A heatsink clip to use instead of dealing w/ potential issues w/ conductive grease, overtightening, or shorting is https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=MAX08Gvirtualkey53210000virtualkey532-MAXCLIP08G
Thermo pads which are better & easier to use than mica/grease is https://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=TP0008_(PKG_OF_5)virtualkey52600000virtualkey526-NTETP0008

To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline dynaman1

  • SMG
  • Level 2
  • *****
  • Posts: 120
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2011, 11:23:48 am »
Volume, treble, bass, PPIMV, "cut", VVR.

Offline jojokeo

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
  • Eddie and my zebrawood V in Dave's basement '77
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2011, 11:30:23 am »
Thanks, darn I was so close and should have know that. Vox-style stuff likes the cut and no nfb but since it appeared to maybe be your own custom design it had me guessing. While on the subject you must like it too or you wouldn't have used it. I don't have a lot of experience w/ it or those amps and wonder why the treble control doesn't cover the high end reduction enough that warrants this to be included? Thoughts?
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline dynaman1

  • SMG
  • Level 2
  • *****
  • Posts: 120
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2011, 01:00:24 pm »
Thanks, darn I was so close and should have know that. Vox-style stuff likes the cut and no nfb but since it appeared to maybe be your own custom design it had me guessing. While on the subject you must like it too or you wouldn't have used it. I don't have a lot of experience w/ it or those amps and wonder why the treble control doesn't cover the high end reduction enough that warrants this to be included? Thoughts?

Not sure, I spent less than 2 hours playing it. I simply built the amp to the customer's request and shipped it off. It was my first experience with a Voxey circuit and I didn't get to mess with it proper.

Offline Willabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 10524
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Hot VVR Mosfet
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2011, 07:53:43 am »
Thanks for the links jojokeo.


              Brad      :icon_biggrin:

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password