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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: EF86 vs 5879 - What do you think about an AC15 with 5879 tube instead ef86 ?  (Read 24541 times)

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Offline kagliostro

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I would like to know your opinion about the use of a 5879 tube, in a Vox AC15 style amp, instead of the usual ef86 tube

http://www.el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/Vox/ac15.pdf

if I'm not wrong Gibson used the 5879 as V1 (and also Geezer in the HoSo56 of course)

ef86
http://www.nj7p.info/Common/Tube/SQL/Tube_query.php?Type=EF86
http://www.nj7p.info/Common/Tube/SQL/Tube_query.php?Type=6CF8

5879
http://www.nj7p.info/Common/Tube/SQL/Tube_query.php?Type=5879

Thanks

K



« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 03:36:48 pm by kagliostro »
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Offline tubenit

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I think using a 5879 is a GREAT idea!

With respect, Tubenit

Offline Katie 77

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i'm in the process of building one, but w/ skills.....
got a nice 5879 from D'load
gonna be UL, as well

Offline phsyconoodler

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You have to have one more gain stage to drive the 5879 tube.It doesn't have enough gain on it's own.I tried building an amp with just a 5879 and it didn't have hardly any volume.It needs another gain stage before or after it to work.So no,you can't just graft a 5879 tube into the spot where an EF86 was.
  Simply won't have any gain to speak of.
Honey badger don't give a ****

Offline Katie 77

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You have to have one more gain stage to drive the 5879 tube.It doesn't have enough gain on it's own.I tried building an amp with just a 5879 and it didn't have hardly any volume.It needs another gain stage before or after it to work.So no,you can't just graft a 5879 tube into the spot where an EF86 was.
  Simply won't have any gain to speak of.
better tell Fred Taccone his ERT33 doesn't have any gain
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 01:02:49 pm by Katie 77 »

Offline John

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I had thought the EF86 and 5879 were almost identical?
Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline kagliostro

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Quote
You have to have one more gain stage to drive the 5879 tube.It doesn't have enough gain on it's own.

I've seen the GA40 Les Paul version schematic so I was wondering if the tube can replace the ef86 in an AC15 architecture
 

http://www.el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/gibson/ga40.pdf

surely a preceding or following stage will increase the gain

what about to connect the output of the 5879 at the input of a Top Boost circuit as in the AC30 do the V1 12ax7 ?

K
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Offline Katie 77

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I'm using a med-gain 2nd stage...the gain of the 5879 in my topology is 109 (per datasheet)..whereas EF86 gain in AC15 topology is 194 (per datasheet)
*of course this depends on the quality of the 5879 being used*

I don't like heavy grind overdrive unless I decide to boost it w/ a pedal (fer instance, my Geek Britsh Ball Breaker)......
The EF86 ch in AC15s I've heard are a bit over the top for my taste....I'm going to fine tune 2nd gain stage to 'just clip' the PI w/ a 100mV input.
My 2nd input is 'top boost' circuit anyway...that's PLENTY overdrive if I need it....

Offline HotBluePlates

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You have to have one more gain stage to drive the 5879 tube.It doesn't have enough gain on it's own.I tried building an amp with just a 5879 and it didn't have hardly any volume. ...

I had thought the EF86 and 5879 were almost identical?

Look hard at the EF86 and 5879 data sheets.

Under the same conditions, the EF86 has higher transconductance, which for a pentode will generally translate into more voltage gain. However if you look hard at the "Conditions as Resistance-coupled  Amplifier for Maximum Voltage Gain" chart on the 5879, if you juggle the plate load to 470kΩ (along with other changes indicated in the chart), you can get a 5879 to nearly equal the gain of an EF86 with a 220kΩ plate load. That's the condition most AC15 variants use.

So you can't simply plug it in with no changes and get equal performance. However, if your starting point is absolute maximum gain an EF86 is capable of, you can alter circuit values to get nearly as much performance from a 5879.

Considering NOS 5879's seem to cost less than even new-production EF86's at many vendors, the substitution may be a sensible idea, depending on your needs and situation.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Interestingly, the cheap and lowly 6AU6 appears to be able to match the EF86's gain, given appropriate surrounding components, if you're willing to switch to a 7-pin socket.

I don't know if there is a listing somewhere which (accurately) ranks the gain of the various miniature pentodes. I'd bet there are others which could be substituted for the expensive EF86.

The problem is always that the exact operating point (which depends on plate, screen and cathode resistors and affects transconductance) impacts the gain of a pentode (which depends on plate load, following stage grid reference resistor and tube transconductance). That makes apples-to-apples comparisons more involved than comparing triodes, and might blind you to cases where one tube could be substituted for another given certain circuit changes.

Offline Tyrannocaster

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HBP, there you go again, bringing up something that gets me interested.  :icon_biggrin: I have some of those old 6AU6s kicking around and I've never used them for anything. Now I'll have to look around to see what's already been built with them - I'm not enough of an engineer to really adapt this stuff on my own (boy, what an understatement), although you guys certainly help immensely.

Now back to your normally scheduled thread.  :laugh:

Offline Willabe

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Given the same gain on 2 pentode preamp tubes, would the transconductance, if different enough from each other, give a very different feel in picking attack?

Might be a game changer, especially if it's the 1'st gain stage in an amp?

Or would this not be noticeable?


                   Brad      :dontknow:
 

Offline HotBluePlates

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Given the same gain on 2 pentode preamp tubes, would the transconductance ...

It don't work that way.  :icon_biggrin: I haven't experimented with pentodes much, but my sense of it is that if you arrive at the same gain, other issues should be similar. This assumes you don't do something silly, like make a gain stage that has the gain but doesn't have the needed output voltage swing, so the stage is always clipping when you apply an input. But that's a different topic...

The mu of a triode (sometimes called "amplification factor") is the ratio of plate voltage change divided by the grid voltage change that caused it. When you figure the gain of a triode stage, the easiest method is to take the tube's mu and assume that the plate load resistance and internal plate resistance form a voltage divider which reduces the gain possible (mu) to the value actually seen at the plate output. The portion of the output across the plate load is what gets passed along to the next stage.

Mu is also used in triode calculations because of the three basic tube characteristics (mu, transconductance [Gm], internal plate resistance), it is the most-constant parameter. The relationship of the three is such that as plate resistance changes in one direction and Gm changes in the other, they offset and mu changes very little.

But because pentodes have generally horizontal curves for plate current change with increasing plate voltage, it is often assumed their plate resistance is infinite. If you place a load resistor in series with an infinite resistance to form a voltage divider, you get nothing across your load resistor unless it's infinite also. But we get signal out of pentodes, so we need a different model to figure gain.

As an aside, just try to find a pentode data sheet with mu listed. You might get a rating for mu from g1 to g2, but you won't find one for mu from g1 to plate (which is what triode mu represents). Plate resistance is very high and often difficult to accurately calculate, but is the most constant parameter. This implies mu from g1 to plate will vary with Gm, so the easiest path is to figure Gm from a datasheet at the operating point chosen.

Gm is defined as the change of plate current given a small change of grid voltage. If we assume plate resistance is very high, we could ignore it, and assume that if we apply a 1v signal at the grid, there is a certain plate current variation that results. So the output will be that plate current change times the plate load resistance, which follows ohm's law (Voltage = Current*Resistance).

End result? If you make Gm bigger, or the plate load resistor bigger, you get a bigger output voltage and therefore more gain.

The problem is if you make the plate load resistor too big (say, approaching infinity), you get very little tube current and Gm drops. So there is a limit to how far you can go by simply making the load resistor bigger before you have to select a different pentode with naturally more Gm. Also, you're probably looking at using a load resistor bigger than you might with a triode, which means the grid reference resistor of the following gain stage has a bigger impact on possibly dropping the gain of the pentode.

Without explaining how the term "micromho" comes about, it is probably helpful to remind you the european method of describing Gm: 1000 micromhos = 1mA/V. That means for a 1v input on the grid, you get 1mA of plate current change. 2,200 micromhos = 2.2mA/V, etc.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 10:41:28 am by HotBluePlates »

Offline kagliostro

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Many thanks to all for reply and ..............

YES, a big amount of really interesting things were said, must be studied with attention  :bump1:

HBP your presence is always of the maximum interest

Thanks again

K

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Offline Geezer

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Interestingly, the cheap and lowly 6AU6 appears to be able to match the EF86's gain, given appropriate surrounding components, if you're willing to switch to a 7-pin socket.



Most of the 6AU6's I've tried (many dozens) are microphonic in the V1 position. I use the military version 5654....it's a tiny tube with huge tone! NEVER had one of those that is microphonic!

Sluckey turned me on to those (5654's) several years ago & they are still only a few dollars each if you shop around, usually in sleeves of 5x

G

« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 02:06:05 pm by Geezer »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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From what I can find, the 5654 is a special version of the 6AK5, yet another different pentode.

Offline Backwoods Joe

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Some time ago, I built an adapter that you can plug into an amp (wired for EF86) that has two 9pin sockets. One socket is wired for 5879 & the other 6BR7. IMHO the gain is not that different between the three tubes EF86, 5879, 6BR7. However compared to the EF86, the 5879 ( Sylvania) seems to have some less mids and gain but the 6BR7 (Brimar) is really full and Juicy. The amp I used has all the clasic component values of the Vox AC15. hope this helps

Offline Willabe

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Thanks HBP.

I don't understand all of it, which is me not your explanation, but I think the answer to my question is no.     :laugh:

A higher transconductance preamp tube wont be more touch sensitive than 1 with less/lower transconductance. Because parameters within the tube in use, not in idol condition, are fighting each other, keeping them more or less the same at their output?


                   Brad      :icon_biggrin:     

Offline HotBluePlates

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A higher transconductance preamp tube wont be more touch sensitive than 1 with less/lower transconductance. Because parameters within the tube in use, not in idol condition, are fighting each other, keeping them more or less the same at their output?

No, what I'm saying is you won't reallt get "same gain" with different Gm between tubes. My point was that in a pentode, gain is dependent on Gm, so the scenario isn't valid.

Now, whether a tube with more Gm would be more "touch sensitive"... hell, I don't know. I guess it depends on how it's being used.

It's worth realizing at this point that these rules don't really apply in triode-land. A 12AU7 has maybe 4 times the Gm of a 12AX7. Which is more touch sensitive to you?

Offline Willabe

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A 12AU7 has maybe 4 times the Gm of a 12AX7. Which is more touch sensitive to you?

I don't think you could tell because if the gain is different then it will effect the rest of the amps circuit too.

That's why I was hoping to be able to look at it from the starting point of the same gain. But as you point out that won't work.

Now, whether a tube with more Gm would be more "touch sensitive"... hell, I don't know. I guess it depends on how it's being used.

 :laugh: 
 
I was just wondering if there was more to consider than just gain in replacing an EF86 with another small bottle pentode.

No big deal, just a thought.


                Thanks,    Brad      :think1:
 

« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 10:14:38 pm by Willabe »

Offline DummyLoad

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6136 is one of several rugged versions of the 6AU6A. the 7543 is a low hum, non-microphnic version of the 6AU6.

the brimar 6BR7 is an AF pentode - rare, but still available and not entirely out of line price-wise. seems similar and closer to 5879, then EF86 but not quite. it is a 9pin.

roll with loktal - 7C7 and 7G7 - 7C7 seems the better choice.

5725/6AS6W/6187 looks promising for AF amp use as well, as does the 6BH6, 6BJ6, and the low B+ 6AJ5.

WE 5590 seems to be another candidate. the mfg. name alone probably makes it scarce and expensive.

if you don't mind 8 pin sub-miniature - 5840/6205 and AF specified 6788, the 6BA5, and the low B+ 5905

--DL


Offline PRR

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> just try to find a pentode data sheet with mu listed

The very earliest pentode sheets listed grid-plate Mu.

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/021/3/34.pdf

Numbers from 224 to 620.

Take the middle column of '34 data. 135V on plate, 67V G2, -3V G1, flowing 2.8mA plate current. We might try a resistance-loaded amplifier with 250V supply. So 250V-135V= 115V across the resistor, 2.8mA through it, 41,000 ohms. Gm is 600 microMhos or 1667 ohms. Voltage gain seems to be 24.6, far-far short of the nominal Mu of 360.

For almost any practical case, almost any reasonable supply voltage, the plate resistor in a pentode resistance-coupled amplifier will be far-far smaller than pentode plate resistance, and voltage gain will be far-far less than grid-plate Mu. So much less that grid-plate Mu is essentialy useless for design or analysis.

So they stopped putting it in data sheets.

(BTW you can extract grid-plate Mu from plate resistance and transconductance. 6AU6 grid-plate Mu is 2,000 or more.)

Actually grid-plate Mu "could" be an issue in coil-coupled amplifiers. Radio, especially IF amps; also (interestingly) transformer audio amps. This depends on being able to wind a coil with large signal impedance but low DC resistance, so you don't have such a hard tradeoff between signal and DC conditions.

Radio IF stages have other resistances, and design of narrow tuned filters is a specialized field.

Transformer-coupled power stages are still of interest.

One issue is that in a push-pull amp, main B+ ripple cancels to the load _IF_ both tubes' plate resistances are equal. Or not if they are not. Some Fenders with only "bias balance" trims adjusted for lowest buzz seem to be intended to balance plate resistance, not idle current.

As mentioned elsewhere, speaker impedance rises at bass resonance. With a really good OT (and no NFB), the amount of bass rise at resonance may be limited by power tube plate resistance.

Offline jojokeo

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I use the military version 5654....it's a tiny tube with huge tone! NEVER had one of those that is microphonic!

Sluckey turned me on to those (5654's) several years ago & they are still only a few dollars each if you shop around, usually in sleeves of 5x

G



I agree totally geezer. I got a bunch of 'em. They were used in aircraft to withstand high G forces and vibrations so I figured "it can't be prone to microphonics". So far so good for a couple years now and the tone and gain are terrific too.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline bnwitt

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Geezer and Jojokeo,
In what amplifiers/tube position are you guys using these 5654 pentodes?
Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline jojokeo

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numero uno - self made types single ended and ac-15ish like here - http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14201.msg133951#msg133951
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 09:30:17 am by jojokeo »
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Offline phsyconoodler

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Ah! So that's why it wouldn't work on my amp!I simply wired it into an EF86 circuit but I didn't look at the plate and cathode resistors required on the 5879 tube to get it to give up the maximum voltage gains.
  Silly me! I just saw it in other amps with a gain stage beofore or after it and made an assumption based on my limited experience with the tube.Bad!
 Now I need to re- visit my 5879 tubes! Thanks for the clarification gurus!
Honey badger don't give a ****

Offline HotBluePlates

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Ah! So that's why it wouldn't work on my amp! ...

Yeah, but you weren't totally wrong, either. You were correct that the 5879 is a lower gain tube than the EF86, so even in max'd out conditions you'll still have less gain.

It's surprising how many seemingly similar tubes are out there, which are just "different enough" to matter. It's also interesting how many "worthless" t.v. tubes will do exactly what you want. I might have to start looking hard at 3-volt filament tubes (for series operation on a 6.3v winding) or other odd candidates. Prices on the old standby tubes are starting to get crazy.

 


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