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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: What dat V2 do?  (Read 3965 times)

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Offline Gone_Fishing

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What dat V2 do?
« on: December 01, 2012, 07:31:04 pm »
Hello gentlemen it's me again,

     Since I finished my Revibe, I want to build an amp for it.  I have a Mojo blackface Bassman chassis with a hole for a rectifier tube,,,,I want to build about a 25 to 30 watt sumping with two channels (volume, treble, bass and a bright switch on each channel and wire one normal and the other bright,,,,.   My question is: In a Fender Bassman AA864 the V1 and V3 are the preamp tubes for the two channels and V4 is the phase inverter tube,,,what is V2's job?

I appologize for my ignorance and thank you in advance for your teaching.

Gone Fishing


Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2012, 07:49:24 pm »
It's the 3rd gain stage for the Bass channel. The Normal channel only has 2 gain stages.

Offline Gone_Fishing

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2012, 01:20:35 pm »
Thanks Hot Blue Plates,

    How could I use that extra gain stage in my simple two channel non-bass amp??

Gone Fishing (one of these days when I get time)

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2012, 01:43:33 pm »
Are you modifying an AA864 Bassman?

I had an AB165 Bassman, which I first converted back to AA864 specs.

Then realized I had one triode doing nothing (and didn't need a bass channel), so I left the Normal channel as it is in the AA864 for a blackface tone and converted the Bass channel to match the 5F6-A Bassman preamp circuit. That used all available tube sections and gave a very different tone in the other channel.

Offline Gone_Fishing

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2012, 05:21:04 pm »
Thanks again Hot Blue Plates,

    Not converting an AA864,,, just have an empty Mojo "blackface Bassman style" chassis which has an octal  rectifier hole.  I looked at the AA864 schematic and layout trying to get id's on how to make a guitar amp using 3 octals and 4 preamp tubes (just thinking and scheming).  I'm a hobbyist (but I'm learning and appreciate all the help you guys give me) but I didn't know exactly what the V2 was used for (I know I ended that with a preposition).

     The way you did your Bassman sounds very interesting and is similar to what I want to do.  I plan on using a 68409 power transformer (old #125P6A used on early Supers, Tremoluxs and Vibroluxs) from Mercury Magnetics (I think it is about 30 watts) and maybe a 125A6A Output with 6L6's and either 5AR4 or 5U4GB.  The PT is smaller than the Bassman chassis PT hole,  but it will fit if I turn it 90 degrees and drill four new holes.

     I guess my question is now,,,,knowing now what transformers I plan to use,,,could your mod be done on the  Bass channel with the above transformers and change the value of the caps and resistors on the board as needed or can you see changes that would need to be made before I even start.?


Thanks again,

Eual

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2012, 08:38:45 pm »
No, everything seems reasonable.

Note that the 5F6-A preamp will send a lot more signal to the output section for the same volume knob setting. What I did back when I owned that Bassman was use an A/B pedal to switch between preamps.

If I remember correctly, there might be some trickery/pre-planning that will be needed to determine a layout of parts if you plan on getting a Fender-style eyelet board.

Also, there's no hole for a midrange control in the stock chassis. You may have to repurpose an input jack hole to be a control, or otherwise use a fixed setting for the mid control.

Offline Gone_Fishing

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2012, 12:28:58 pm »
Thanks again Blue Plates,  I sure do appreciate it!  Now I gots ah starting point.  I'll make my own "Fender style" islet board like I did when I made my "Fendery" style layout for my ReVibe.  I used the same Fender layouts for both sections of the ReVibe and added what was needed to complete the unit.  It is dead quite and I didn't have to use shielded wires.   I hope to get my friend to post pictures of it soon so everyone can see what it looks like.

Thanks again,

Eual

Offline Gone_Fishing

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 12:31:58 pm »
Oh yeah,,,,can that extra gain stage be split to both channels?

Eual

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 04:29:17 pm »
A single gain stage could be shared between two channels, but you'll have to consider exactly what you want your amp to be, and whether such a shared stage makes sense.

You have 4 preamp tubes available (8 triode sections). Assume that one of those will be your long-tail phase inverter, which takes up 1 whole tube/2 triode sections.

So you have 3 tubes left.

Ignore the Bright channel input on the 5F6-A Bassman, and look at the remaining triodes used. You have a Normal channel input stage, another gain stage, then a cathode follower. Afterwards is the phase inverter, which you already have accounted for, so you'll need 3 triodes to replicate one channel of the 5F6-A Bassman.

That leaves 3 triodes. If you look at the AB763 Super Reverb, you'll notice the Normal channel has only 2 triodes before the phase inverter. You could copy that, and be left with 1 triode not doing anything.

So you don't have enough left over to add reverb (without punching another hole and adding a tube or 2), and adding trem with only 1 triode might be difficult to integrate well into the existing circuit.

A different option might be to use the leftover triode in the AB763 channel to mimic the extra gain stage found in the Reverb channel of the Super Reverb (and other AB763 amps with reverb). The catch is the dry signal of the reverb channel gets little extra gain boost from that extra triode, as it mostly boosts the reverb signal in that channel and helps make up some of the loss from the mix network used to combine dry and reverb signals.

To the Super Reverb's Vibrato channel dry signal, it looks like there is a voltage divider between the 2nd and 3rd gain stages made of a 3.3MΩ resistor and a 220kΩ resistor, dropping signal strength about 94%. It's arguable that the gain which then follows barely does more than return the dry signal back to its original strength.

So where does that leave you?

Knocking a signal down just to boost it back where it started doesn't do anything but add noise (if you're not also getting some other benefit like reverb). Adding a gain stage that isn't present in the original AB763 circuit takes you a bit away from the original sound. And I can tell you from my experience in this situation that just using 2 triodes and the phase inverter (like the Super Reverb's Normal channel) has a blackface-type sound different from the tweed 5F6-A sound in the other channel.

So you could just leave that triode unused. Or you could choose not to be exact to the original circuit and use the extra triode to either parallel an existing gain stage, or to cascade (with ot without a voltage divider ahead of the added stage) the existing preamp into this gain stage and go after a different sound.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 02:07:00 pm by HotBluePlates »

Offline eleventeen

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Re: What dat V2 do?
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 09:51:45 am »
Excellent post, and excellent thought process, HBP!

 


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