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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Push-Pull 12au7  (Read 8690 times)

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Offline VMS

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Push-Pull 12au7
« on: March 23, 2013, 08:10:14 am »
Hi guys,

I would like to know how to calculate correct cathode bias resistor for 12au7 push-pull amp?

From Brimar datasheet operating conditions are: anode volts 300, grid volts -11,5 and output load 10kohm:

http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/184/1/12AU7.pdf

Is it right that I need 11,5 volts over the cathode resistor and is there a way to determine the current from above information?

...or are the brimar conditions for fixed bias amp?


Thanks in advance,

vms


Offline tubeswell

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Re: Push-Pull 12au7
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 10:20:54 am »
Assuming that each triode is biased to run in Class A and that they were running the 12AU7 at full plate dissipation (2.75W) and the plate idle voltage is 300, then you can work out that the plate current (which in a triode is equal to the tube current) is 2.75/300 = 0.00916A or 9.16mA.

Therefore if the grid needs to be at 11.5 volts and you are using cathode bias, the cathode resistor would be 11.5/0.00916 = 1,254R (1k2) - if you were running a separate cathode resistor for each triode. (The power rating on the resistor would need to be 11.5 x 0.00916 = 0.1W.  So a 0.25W resistor would be fine.). If you want to be exact, then get a bunch of 1k2 resistors and measure them (using the 10s of Ohms setting on your meter) and pick the ones that are nearer to 1,254-ish ohms.

If you use a shared cathode resistor for both triodes, then that would need to be half of that resistance (because you have 2 x as much current through the resistor to get the same voltage drop), i.e.: 627R - so 680R would be the closest (which will give you more than 11.5V drop), and a 1/2W resistor will work fine (or alternatively, you could put 2 x 1k2 in parallel).
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 10:38:51 am by tubeswell »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Push-Pull 12au7
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 11:07:37 am »
Assuming that each triode is biased to run in Class A and that they were running the 12AU7 at full plate dissipation (2.75W) and the plate idle voltage is 300, then you can work out that the plate current (which in a triode is equal to the tube current) is 2.75/300 = 0.00916A or 9.16mA.

I would do this differently. We can't assume the 12AU7 would idle at maximum dissipation at 11.5v of bias.

Details below.

I would like to know how to calculate correct cathode bias resistor for 12au7 push-pull amp?

From Brimar datasheet operating conditions are: anode volts 300, grid volts -11,5 and output load 10kohm

Brimar did the hard work for you... they gave you 2 good operating conditions. Now you just have to inject some background knowledge.

While you can make a push-pull circuit that is plate-loaded with resistors, let's assume Brimar wanted you to use an output transformer to load your 12AU7. How can we know this? The data sheet paragraph talks about using this push-pull stage as a driver for a Class AB2 or Class B output stage (made of other tubes). Because class AB2 (and often class B) stages draw grid current, they need a driver with a low output impedance (to source the current) which tends to rule out resistance loading.

So you're using an output transformer, and B+ is very nearly equal the 300v plate voltage. We know bias is 11.5v, so how do we figure current?

Brimar gave you 2 graphs of plate current when plate voltage and bias are known; they're on pages 7 & 8.

When you look at the usual plate curves on page 7, you see a grid voltage line for -10v and -15v. You could use a ruler, place it perpendicular to the -10v and -15v lines, and draw new -11v through -14v grid lines. At this point, you'd look for where the vertical 300v plate voltage line runs through a point halfway between the -11v and -12v lines, then read off current. But you know what? The graph on page 8 has the intermediate lines...

So go to the graph on page 8 (generally called the "mutual characteristics"), and look at the bottom axis of the graph. First vertical line left of -10v is the -11v line; halfway between this and one more vertical line to the left is -11.5v. Now move vertically from this point up to the 300v plate voltage curve. At this intersection, follow right to read your plate current of 11.3mA per triode.

Well, 11.3mA * 300v = 3.39w, which is well over the plate dissipation rating Brimar published. Either this is safe (because Brimar did publish this as a operating condition) and the plate dissipation rating is conservative, or you should back-track and adhere to Tubeswell's suggestion.

But assuming this is safe, you will have the current of 2 triodes in a shared cathode resistor, or 11.3mA * 2 = 22.6mA. You need 11.5v across the cathode resistor, so 11.5v/0.0226A = 509Ω. Power dissipation would be over 1/4w, so I'd use a 1w resistor, just because. 509Ω isn't a standard value, but 510Ω is in a 5% resistor.

You might try a set of values in the 5% series, starting at Tubeswell's 680Ω and working downward to 620Ω, 560Ω and 510Ω, if you're not sure the 680Ω is giving everything you want and if you watch for redplating. 1w 5% resistors in these values shouldn't be hard to find in a metal oxide or metal film variety.

Offline DummyLoad

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Re: Push-Pull 12au7
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2013, 12:34:26 pm »
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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Push-Pull 12au7
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2013, 02:22:18 pm »
I think I've got it.

It appears Brimar did intend a resistive load, but still 10k plate-to-plate.

If you assume a 5kΩ plate resistor per tube, 11.3mA across 5kΩ = 56.5v.
300v - 56.5v = 243.5v
243.5v * 11.3mA = 2.75w

This doesn't account for the 11.5v dropped across the cathode resistor, but Brimar did say "grid volts -11.5v ..."

But resistor don't do us any good with matching to a speaker. So assume B+ should not exceed 243.5v + 11.5v = 255v. The 510Ω cathode resistor still applies, for this scenario.

Offline VMS

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Re: Push-Pull 12au7
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2013, 02:59:03 pm »
Thanks guys.

Because it says 1200milliwatts output power, I assumed it is 10k transformer load.

I was wondering if there was some kind of formula where you try to match the cathode resistor to the output load?


Offline PRR

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Re: Push-Pull 12au7
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2013, 01:04:22 am »
> formula where you try to match the cathode resistor to the output load?

Not really. (Maybe in SE Pentode.)

In a max-output Class-A amp, you generally run the tube as hot as possible.

As tubeswell says, if you assume 300V, then you can go 9mA.

Short-cut: 300V at 9mA is like a 33K resistance. The tube multiplies the cathode resistor by its mu. About 20 for 12AU7. Working backward, we want 33K/20 or 1.6K resistor per cathode.

Check: assume the 9mA is right, and the 11.5V is right (this is not certain). So we need 11.5V/9mA or 1.28K.

So between 1K and 2K.

Refinement: this IS near the show-off conditions in the Typical Operation (pg3). Internal plate resistance is about 7K. Subtract that from the desired 33K, get 26K. Now divide by mu, 1.3K.

We may not have the full 300V; the 11.5V subtracts. OTOH we rarely know WHAT we will get from a random PT.

So I'd fire-up with 2K each cathode (1K common). Measure dissipation. If less than 2.5W per plate, decrease Rk. Don't go over 3W unless you have bucketloads of tubes. (I did this, back in the day; got 10 or 20 hours on a tuner-tube before it went sour, but they were really cheap as solid-state killed the tube market.)

Yes, a POWER amp really has to be transformer coupled. Resistance coupled is too woefully inefficient.

I do not think this is a great design, except that it uses the readily-available 12AU7. A 7K tube can not drive a 10K CT load well. However if you needed a REAL power-amp you'd be aiming higher than the mild 12AU7, more like EL84. Or if you needed a Watt and were not too worried about distortion, there's several kitchen-radio tubes do a Watt single-ended (fewer parts). But there are many ways to skin an elephant, and this is sure not the worst. Do it.

Offline VMS

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Re: Push-Pull 12au7
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2013, 08:14:15 am »
As tubeswell says, if you assume 300V, then you can go 9mA.

Short-cut: 300V at 9mA is like a 33K resistance. The tube multiplies the cathode resistor by its mu. About 20 for 12AU7. Working backward, we want 33K/20 or 1.6K resistor per cathode.

Check: assume the 9mA is right, and the 11.5V is right (this is not certain). So we need 11.5V/9mA or 1.28K.

So between 1K and 2K.

Refinement: this IS near the show-off conditions in the Typical Operation (pg3). Internal plate resistance is about 7K. Subtract that from the desired 33K, get 26K. Now divide by mu, 1.3K.

Thanks PRR. These mu equations was just the thing I was looking for.

A 7K tube can not drive a 10K CT load well.

Is there a rule of thumb how much bigger the load should be compared to plate resistance?

However if you needed a REAL power-amp you'd be aiming higher than the mild 12AU7, more like EL84. Or if you needed a Watt and were not too worried about distortion, there's several kitchen-radio tubes do a Watt single-ended (fewer parts). But there are many ways to skin an elephant, and this is sure not the worst. Do it.

My goal is to get push-pull power amp distortion at lowest possible level so that I don't bother my neighbors.


 


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