Please Refresh my Memory on Alternate 5E3 Coupeling Cap Values

[Platefire]

Please refresh my memory on coupleling cap values to use to reduce bass for this circuit. For strat single coils it's a little bottomey and for a PAF type humbucker in the 8K range it's way to bottomey. I wouldn't be using any humbuckers any hotter than that. So I'm looking for a happy medium where both type guitar pickups would get more highs but want to still maintain the original circuit function as much as possible. I think the value is .022? If I was wanting less bass for both channels, I'm assuming I would need to change the CC for both channels and leave the others as is? Just a little less bottom tweak! Thanks, Platefire

Edit: Doing a little google research, I've read .022 after first gain stage, .047 after the second and the normal .022 before the PI.

[tubenit]

Platefire,

I listed the values I would use in the schematic & the red indicates the range of values I would consider in those places. I have not used 22uf or 25uf in gain stages for some years now. I find 2.2uf or 5uf to give me a clearer tone with all the bass I need.

With respect, Tubenit

[stingray_65]

I find 2.2uf or 5uf to give me a clearer tone with all the bass I need.

With respect, Tubenit

I really agree with Jeff here, I've not modified a 5E3's coupling caps as you're suggesting, but in every forum I've read that changing the values to ,022 and ,047 works.

Jeff posted this neat little schematic a while ago and I've used the "full bright fat switch with great success in Fender Tweeds.

http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=5621.0

I've also modded it to use a common SPST switch and switch in a 5UF over a .68uf.

Just my opinion, but that boomy muddiness is part of the 5E3 charm.

The switch gives the end user a few options if they have different guitars/pickups.

Ray

[rzenc]

Besides shaving out lowend from preamp, I would suggest something between 100uF - 470uF to power tube cathodes. In my experience, it provided a cleaner, tightier bass response, IMO. Also, some mods to power supply, like adding a choke - 10H @ 50R on my own + 47uF for feeding G2. It worked great for me. but then it might not be a 5E3 anymore 

Hope this helps.
With Respect,
Best Regards,

Rzenc

[Tone Junkie]

Thats funny you mention that Ray I ended up using a 5uf over a 1uf for my switch for strat or humbuckers. good call on all the other things Jeff. Rzenc I never even thought of those things good to know I will put it on my wall of knowledge for my next go round. Along with Jeffs schematic with changes, My 5e3 didnt stick around long i have a bad habit of selling things to buy parts to get to the next build, some kind of addiction problem I think (LOL)
Thanks Bill

[Platefire]

Thanks So Much. I know this is a subject that has been worked to death but I have more trust in you guys input than just digging stuff off the net. You see my Son Gregg is the player that I'm trying to tweak for and he is working with me on the "TE Deluxe" Project. He loves the power range and response of the amp but he says the frequencies are low enough where they are getting in the bass player's range and he wants more clarity and brigtness to stand out from the bass players tones. I'm going to refer him to this post. We will tweak and taste test to get it performing like he needs. I have very much respect for his playing abilities (Light years ahead of me), so I trust his ears on this one. Thanks again Tubenit(for the schematic), Stingray-65, Tone Junkie and rzenc. I'll keep you informed on where we are going with it and the outcome. Platefire    

[stingray_65]

just curious,
Did you let him play that Tele thru it?
cause a Tele and a 5E3 go together like church and Sunday

[Platefire]

He's got a partcaster tele he built that he plays sometimes, a couple of strats and a Gretch. Yeah I like playing a tele through a dark amp. The tele is a great match for a Silvertone 1482.

Just moveing a cab from the floor up on a stand can boost the highs somewhat. Platefire

[Baguette]

.1 for Bright and .02 for Normal for me please.
Makes the two channels a bit more different from each other, and still retains the 5E3 thing.

[Tone Junkie]

Or you could go .0047 for bright and .01 for normal if its still to bassy for him.
Bill

[Platefire]

Trying to formulate a plan to order some caps. Looking at tubenit's schematic 5E3, looks like he went with less extreme on the bright channel with .01, a little brighter on the normal channel with .02 and a happy medium between .022 and .047 with .033 after the PI. Tubenit, is that some values you actually used in one of your amps and if so how did it work out?

Again I am just wanting to do the minimum first, just to see how it works out. Platefire 

[tubenit]

is that some values you actually used in one of your amps

Yes, that's correct. And I liked the tone I got. I've never gotten the tone I wanted using the .1 caps like in a 5E3. The tone seemed too bass muddy to my ears.

With respect, Tubenit

[Platefire]

OK, Thanks. Talked it over with Greg and he just wants to go with putting .022 in the preamp section first to see where that takes us. If we need to change more, then we will cross that bridge when we get there. Platefire 

[Tone Junkie]

Plate fire one of the best places to remove bass or help tailor it to your desired levels is the cathode cap and resister we want to bleed of the bass here if possible your cathode cap there is basically a low pass to ground in the circuit one of the reasons a 5e3 has to much bass is the the cap resister they use there.
 Tubenit up above stated he no longer uses a 22 or 25 uf cap there but has found that a 5uf or 2.2 uf is perfect in that position i will explain why as best I can, with the math of course.
The math for this example is that a 22 uf cap and 820 resister cross over bass at 8hz there are two things wrong with this for one your transformer cant even use anything lower that 20hz in most cases and your guitars low e string vibrates at I think 88hz so to much low end bass is making it into the mix lets look at Tubnits favorite numbers here an 820 resister with 2.2 uf cap cross over at 88hz which is often times were we like to start I will do the math so you can see the formula 1/(6.28x820x.0000022)=88hz or (6.28x820x.0000022)=.01132912 so 1/.01132912= 88.268109 or 88hz So in high gain amps this is important to stay in this area lower adds bass that causes flubby bass that sounds bad in the circuit. Thats why you will see things like .68 and 2.7k or 1uf and 1.8k they all cross over at 88hz.
 But were not talking high gain were talking fender here part of the beauty of the sound is in adding some extra bass thats why in my opinion the fender cleans are the ones everyone tries to emulate. So my favorite favorite is a 4.7uf in this position in fender because it crosses over at 41hz which to my ears adds a little extra sparkle to the clean. I have to say I do not understand why crossing over a little lower than the guitars usable frequancy of 88hz adds sparkle to the sound but to my ears it does.
Know there are a couple variables here that I dont fully understand so I cannot explain one is the 3db shelving effect over the next 100 hz from were we start are shelving frequency at, but I will leave that to the more knowledgeable here to explain. Im barely able to wrap my brain around this part of it, but it works to tailer your sound and is a usefull tool to use when modding your amp and trying to remove some unnecessary bassiness to any circuit.
Thanks Bill   

[Platefire]

Thanks Bill

  The cathode bypass cap change might very well be the icing on the cake but again the 5E3 is famous for a sound, so we're starting small as to preserve as much as possible of the original 5E3 that made it what it is and to decide one step at a time the getting off place for our paticular needs. This is a first step and we'll see where it gets us. Amp performance is so subjective and you could almost come up with a seperate recipe for each individual player. In this case it's my Son Greg who is the player and I'm the amp tech guy trying to tweak it to his taste. With this slow "Try and see" process and the help from you guys, we are going to get there!  What a fun trip-- Thanks, Platefire  

[Tone Junkie]

Just thought I would throw an extra tool for you play with.
Bill 

[stingray_65]

Amp performance is so subjective and you could almost come up with a seperate recipe for each individual player. In this case it's my Son Greg who is the player and I'm the amp tech guy trying to tweak it to his taste. With this slow "Try and see" process and the help from you guys, we are going to get there!  What a fun trip-- Thanks, Platefire  

A true "Boutique" amp is born!

The kid's going to have an amp he'll never get rid of, noththin else will sound right afterwards.

LOL kind of a crappy thing to do! he'll never know the joy of upgrading 

Ray

[LooseChange]

>>> this slow "Try and see" process

When I know the amp will be a tweaker, I'll add one or two switches to the chassis. I either add them to the top of the chassis or add a pull pot.  This way the A/B process can happen on the fly and in my case, during band practice.  When I find the one I like, I hard wire the mod.  When done, I'll usually remove the switch.

[Platefire]

Well this prototype will be his personal amp but is also the model we are tweaking to sell locally and on the internet. I'm 63 and he's 43 with quite a bit of equipment and playing experiance behind us--so we're hoping we can come up with something of value to other like minded musicians. Next will be a complimenting speaker cab! 

[Platefire]

We did the .022 caps in the two preamp sections. At first taste test the bright channel sounds pretty much right now but the normal channel still has some flub. Greg also removed the Weber Silver Bell out of his 1-12 cab and installed a "Hellatone" speaker (30 watts) and that also tightened up the bass.

I was going to try another cap in the preamp section for the normal channel but got confused about
values required to make it brighter. I had a .033 and a .047 but it my understanding that going higher in value increases the bass? so I was thinking the .022 we presently have in there is brighter than the .047----am I right or have I got it backwards?? Platefire

[Willabe]

Yes.

Larger value (bigger #) cap is bassier, smaller value (lower #) cap is brighter sounding.


             Brad       

[Platefire]

OK, Thanks. Glad I didn't install the .047---it would have been worst! Looks like I might need to go .01

Platefire

[Willabe]

Going from .02 to .01, might not be able to hear a lot of differance. OTOH it might be enough, don't worry about going even a little smaller if you have to. Just try it and if you don't like what you hear go back the other way.

Don't forget about what the guys said above about the cathode bypass caps, to cut some bass out. Might be better to try a little of both and see/hear what happens? Look back at tubenits schemo.


                        Brad          

[Tone Junkie]

Yes start with the 4.7 cap and move towards the 2.2 cathode cap if the first isnt enough it will tighten your bass, the order I go down I built a little cap box with a 6 way switch.033 .022,.01,.0068,.0047.0022
The last one .0022 is whats in the bright channel of a plexi going down the line that way gives you some good choices . Bill

[rzenc]

Are you using separate cathode R/C?? If so, you can tweak each channel independently.
Hoffman layout is as quiet as it can be. >> http://www.el34world.com/Hoffman/images/5e3Old.gif

IMO, chaging the cathode cap on power tubes will help a lot. 100uF gives a strong bass without mud. Also, If you can give a try to the paraphase inverter found on Tremolux 5E9-A....  I own both amps and found 5E9-A to be much more responsive than 5E3. Better is not the word, they are different, but I like 5E9-A best.

Hope this helps.
Best Regards.

Rzenc

[Platefire]

We are presently happy with the difference the two .022's made. This is all original 5E3 circuitry except for the two .1 in the preamp sections being changed to .022's. We were pretty happy with the original amp as is, and don't want to make it into something else. I've already made a previous 5E3 with seperated channels and individual cathode resistor/caps---that's a different kind of animal. Platefire

[Tone Junkie]

Sounds perfect my friend  . Bill