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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Number of plate-loads per filter cap  (Read 12130 times)

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Offline TIMBO

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Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« on: April 24, 2011, 04:19:31 pm »
Hi guys, Still trying to find a BUZZ. I thought it might be coming from the relay being to close to the input jack. Moving it helped greatly but still have some when volume is increased and of course when switched to the clipping circuit.So thinking it sounded like a PARASITIC BUZZ i did some wire jiggling but no improvement.I just red a post by HBP about the number of plate-loads per cap.Could this be a problem?I used Tubenits Reverb curcuit from his FX unit which has separate filter caps per plate load.I my circuit have three on node "D" and four on node "E" could this be causing the BUZZ.How many is to many? Thanks


Fixed subject line... sluckey
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 07:26:54 pm by sluckey »

Offline JayB

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2011, 05:07:02 pm »
Two is to many for me. Although, I will group a cathode follower with two triodes on the node if I got no other room for it. At the least, I would go with 2 plate loads per node. OR better yet, One node for each inverted signal pair.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 05:09:06 pm by JayB »
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Offline sluckey

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2011, 05:30:23 pm »
It really depends on the topology of the amp. Your high gain preamp needs every bit of help it can to remain stable. Two per node would probably be OK if there are no other issues, one per node would be even better. OTOH, all AB763 reverb amps (low gain) have six triodes on one cap!
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline Fresh_Start

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2011, 09:15:40 pm »
Two triodes per node, provided that they are out of phase with each other.  Could add a cathode follower to two out-of-phase gain stages, especially if it's a DC coupled cathode follower.

My advice is worth what you pay for it :wink:

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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2011, 09:21:04 pm »
Thanks for all that.I rewired the reverb to its own caps but no inprovement  :BangHead:

Offline tubeswell

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2011, 12:58:10 am »
Hi TIMBO

So you tried a tube swap/pulling pre-amp tubes one at a time (just to rule that out)?

Otherwise I'd take another look at the grounding
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2011, 03:08:50 am »
I have change tubes had JJ803s then tried JJ83s no difference.If i pull tubes one at at time, what exactly am i look(hearing)for.If the buzz disappears will it relate to that tube.You might need to give more info. Thanks

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2011, 12:43:40 am »
Pulled V1 tube  - buzz
Replaced V1 tube removed V2 tube - no buzz
Replaced V2 tube removed V3 tube - no buzz
Replaced all tubes removed reverb tubes - buzz
Reposition some earth - no change  :dontknow:


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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2011, 12:53:00 am »
Gut Shots

Offline tubenit

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2011, 05:29:50 am »
Just grasping at straws here but what happens when you disconnect the reverb tank?  And have you tried orienting it the "other" direction whatever that is?

And I am also wondering if the reverb trannie inside the chassis could be causing this.

with respect, Tubenit
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 05:31:57 am by tubenit »

Offline VMS

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2011, 07:02:16 am »
Pulled V1 tube  - buzz
Replaced V1 tube removed V2 tube - no buzz

I think that this indicates that the problem might be around V2 tube and components. Have you tried different tube here?

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 12:39:50 am »
Timbo, first I'd like to say you did a very pretty job w/ your craftsmanship, excellent. But IMHO & constructively I have to agree w/ tubeswell on grounding and I'd do a number of things differently regarding lead dress and component layout also. That being said, I hope you locate the issue. Did you say what kind of buzz you're trying to deal with? Is is parasitics for sure or something else causing a buzz similarly? Are you getting long sustaining notes and chords? Is it only on certain notes or ranges? Is it only while playing the bridge pu or a certain setting? Have you tried changing the cathode resistor on the return jack's triode from 470r to maybe 1k or higher (lessening the very hot bias towards a cooler load line which can help w/ parasitic behavior) or other adjustments like this? There's a list of things to consider here.
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011, 01:59:34 am »
Tubenit it does not appear to be the reverb tank/tranny, rotated tank, disconnected tank and pulled tubes and disconnected trany  - buzz
I still don't believe the the reverb is producing enough reverb i'm using a 8ohm long tank
These are the latest findings:-
There seems to be two levels of hum, a background hum similar to what i think you get from a PA system and a more pronounced buzz that i would say it is parasitic.
The amp sounds great in clean very sharp with no odd sounds (strat used), hum/buzz is acceptable to half dial and goes down hill from there
With rhythm switch on buzz/hum more pronounced
With OD switch on buzz/hum worse
Jiggled all wires with no improvement
Also with guitar lead pulled the hum/buzz is present

I built a Arbiter Fuzzface and was wanting to try it out  - sounded great
Using the pedal removed some of the parasitic sound but left the hum
I have to say i was rather taken by the sound produced with when the Fuzz and rhythm were on :icon_biggrin:
Thanks Guys for your help 

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2011, 03:36:25 am »
From what I can tell you have chassis ground and circuit grounds not seperated (easy for loops to occur), grounding various parts of circuit together (more poss loops), transformers are very close to each other (induced hum), suspect heater wiring (more induced hum picked up), OT wiring close to other sensitive components (high currents here), filter caps not close to their respective stages (current issues inducing issues), various parts of circuit crossing over each other (poss oscillation sources), etc... all of these things make a difference the higher the gain and output power of the amp and need to be well thought out. This is why the lower gain mode works/sounds better but you didn't build it this way to only run the amp in clean mode.
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Offline JayB

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Re: Mumber of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2011, 05:42:07 pm »
Does your screens and plates filter cap grounds have their own grounds away from your preamp grounds?
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2011, 08:37:56 pm »
Does your screens and plates filter cap grounds have their own grounds away from your preamp grounds?
The heater and B+ grounds are on the OT's tranny bolt and the preamp grounds are also on the OT but a leg over. Then the plate & screen filter cap grounds are at the cap's mounting positions directly to the chassis causing heavy currents flowing through the chassis in that whole area. This should all be cleaned up before any further troubleshooting time is spent.
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2011, 12:51:48 am »
Hi jojokeo,Rehashed the grounds but no luck  :BangHead:

Offline VMS

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 04:29:47 am »
What happens to the buzz if you ground the pin2 of V2?

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 04:43:30 am »
Kills the buzz completely

Offline VMS

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2011, 05:56:18 am »
How about if you ground the pin7 of V1?

Offline jojokeo

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2011, 08:05:23 am »
Timbo, you need to re-work the entire grounding system not just that ground point the way you did it w/ the filter caps. Read Merlin and & Aikens grounding chapters if you can?

This is going to help a lot but there's still more/other issues also as said earlier to work through too.
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2011, 06:30:45 pm »
Thanks jojokeo, I think i did read merlins article some time back but did not fully understand it after all i was only a level one  :dontknow:
So after reading it again it does make more sence but in say that i can see how in the past i been lucky to avoid these problems.
If i am to translate what merlin is saying the grounding schem is as follows.

A few questions,
 The earth off pin2 of the relay would this be better connected to the earth elsewhere?
The article requires that the local star grounds are not fixed to the chassis and are referring to the caps as single units, is there a good way to connect multiple wires to the earth tag of the cap can?
Thanks


Offline jojokeo

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2011, 08:17:50 pm »
Timbo, it took me I don't know how many readings of Merlin's (maybe my favorite) along w/ Aiken's info, Doug's info, & others that I could find on the subject - and then even several builds along the way for everything to finally sink in and make more sense as I went along. It's all so very comprehensive, technical, & difficult to simply digest it all on in reading it. I "thought" it was all clearly understood, then built an amp and realized only after one or two following builds that I was STILL making mistakes!?  :cussing:   :laugh: But, I wasn't having negative repurcussions since MOST of the things I had learned to do correctly still helped a great deal and some of those were not real high gain and smaller practice-type of amps at the time. I actually made a folder just for all of these various grounding articles and info I found along the way. A couple of the most important things is the B+ CT and resevoir cap neg lead being directly connected w/ short leads and going directly to ground w/ heavy or no wire, using cliff jacks for speaker outputs and ground back to this locatioin (both have the heaviest currents in the entire amp), and not allowing circuit ground anywhere near chassis ground - especially early in the preamp. I do not use the back of pots where signal ground is concerned but I do ground the pots to chassis ground and they serve as shielding that way and for shieldng cable - but that's it for those, not for signals directly. I'll include a nice pdf file which helps a great deal to follow it and is what Merlin & Aiken discuss in all of those pages but put nicely in a single printed sheet to follow along while building.

For the other layout stuff -  try not crossing over your circuit in it's layout and having your layout flow from input to output w/out doing this. There's a subject on capacitor orientation which has recently been discussed here, elevating heaters, and other things as far as lead dress goes too. I've spent more attention on the placement of transformers which is more than simply placing them at 90º angles to each other. All of these things take time to learn the more you build and the better you and your amps get.
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2011, 06:14:28 pm »
HI Guys,Reworked the grounding to what is on the schem but we are on closer the beating the buzz.

When using a pair of insulated pliers (to do some jiggling) the only wire that even comes close to being suspect is the one from pin7 of the PI to the 1M resistor. When grasped by the pliers the buzz increases.

Could using 4X 1n4007 diodes in the rect be a problem as suggested in the article?

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2011, 12:33:44 pm »
Timbo, are your heater wires in phase on your power tubes? Have you changed the possible ground loops on the preamp stages?
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2011, 11:58:48 pm »
Hi jojokeo, I think i am slowly eliminating possible causes. By using the grounding as per Merlin i can't see that ground loops can be possible, but i no expert  :w2:I see the madness in the method,with only two connections to the chassis, one at the IEC and the other at the other end of the chassis next to the input.

The reverb was disconnected but the buzz remained

The next is the heater circuit.
Yes they are in phase

I am going to try the "elevated" setup
Question :-
I have a CT on the heater tap, to use the elevated setup do i ditch the CT and use the 100r's or can the CT be connected ot the power tubes cathode?
Thanks

Offline Willabe

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2011, 01:44:38 am »
I am going to try the "elevated" setup
Question :-
I have a CT on the heater tap, to use the elevated setup do i ditch the CT and use the 100r's or can the CT be connected ot the power tubes cathode?

From what I've read, you can do/use either one, same thing to the tubes heaters.


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Offline jojokeo

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2011, 03:47:08 am »
Use the heater's CT - no need to create an artificial CT when you have a REAL CT. As for grounding you need to re-think/re-read this again, I'm not sure you're undstanding properly. Look at the pdf file while reading this slowly.
What is "star grounding"?
One of the best amplifier power supply grounding schemes is a "star" ground system, where all the local grounds for each stage are connected together (i.e.- that stage's own cathode resistor, it's bypass cap, grid leak resistor for that stage, etc.), and a wire is run from that point to a single ground point on the chassis, back at the power supply ground. Even better is a two-point star, where the power supply grounds (PT center tap, first filter cap ground) and output stage grounds (output tube cathodes for fixed bias, or cathode resistors for cathode biased, and output transformer secondary ground) are connected together and to the chassis at a single point, right at the ground of the first filter capacitor. The ground of the second filter capacitor, after the choke or filter resistor, is the star ground point for the preamp stage grounds. Use a local common point for each preamp stage ground, and run a wire from this common point back to the second star point. If two stages are out of phase with each other, they can share a common local ground, but don't use more than two stages per local common ground.
Why is it used?
The idea is to keep heavy power supply and output stage ground currents from flowing in the ground return of the low-level input stages. These ground currents can modulate the ground of the sensitive, high-gain preamp stages, and can result in hum or noise injected into the signal path. In particular, a capacitor input power supply filter can draw heavy currents for very short periods of time to recharge the filter caps at the top of each AC cycle. These currents need to be kept out of the preamp stage grounds.
A good analogy is to think of an amplifier power supply distribution as a river. All the small currents from the preamp stage feed into a larger river, which has the heavier currents from the output stage, and the still heavier currents from the power supply. You want each successive stage farther "upstream" from the power supply, so the heavy currents don't influence the smaller ones. In the case of the input jack ground, it is the farthest point upstream from the power supply, so it should be connected directly to the ground point of the first cathode resistor. If you give it an alternate path to ground through the chassis (or through a grounded pot), it will be influenced by ground currents in the chassis. Think of the first stage as amplifying the difference between the signal on the grid and the signal at the ground side of that stage's cathode resistor. If you have a long path back through the chassis to get from the input jack ground to the cathode resistor ground, it can pick up all sorts of stuff along the way. Keep it short, and use quality shielded cable, with the input jack isolated from the chassis, and the shield grounded at the ground side of the cathode resistor for the first stage.
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Offline tubeswell

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2011, 03:49:50 am »
With that galactic grounding system, each ground return needs to go by its own separate wire to the same ground return point as the relevant supply/decoupling filter cap ground return. The 'separate wires' thing is very important. Each length of wire is both an inductor and a resistor, and even in the ground return path, microvoltage wobbles can develop (in bus ground systems) between each connection to the ground bus wire. It is these microwobbles that the filter caps are sitting on top of, and they therefore 'feed back' the ground-side microwobble into the B+ supply. Keeping each ground return wire separate avoids this.
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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2011, 03:55:50 am »
It's a hard concept to grasp when first trying to understand together w/ the wording and reading what the author is trying to get through and describe, but if you had a teacher at the blackboard in front of you in a class you'd just go "okay, that's all then?"  :laugh:
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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2011, 04:46:30 am »
Hey guy's, your working with a carpenter here so bear with me  :w2: I can see what you are getting at and i'm not sure what i can do as i am using cap cans of 2x 50uf per can

V1 and V2 power supply comes from the cap can node "D" and "E" so all the cathodes are connected to the one earth tag on the can and the tone stack and vol pots are connected as well

The clipping circuit is connected to the cathode ground on the circuit board ( as well as the circuit grounding via the relay)

The reverb and cathodes are connected to the grounds of the two caps and linked via a wire to the earth of the preamp can, power supply is separate to preamp

The preamp can ground is connected to the second can via a wire (as describe by merlin as daisy chain) this cans ground has the speaker ground and presence pot connected at the tag

The first can is connected to the second can via a solid core wire as to be able to connect the CT's, power tube cathode, VVR ,fixed bias grounds

As i said each can is DAISY CHAIN together with only one connection to the chassis next to the input jack

I tried disconnecting the ground wire between the preamp can and the second can and grounding the first can(with the second can still connected) near the IEC but no difference

I have a buss wire that connects the pots and input jack together but not soldered to the back of the pots.
I have the pots for the reverb also connected to this buss (have not tried running a separate wire for these)

Thanks

Offline archaos

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2011, 05:53:47 pm »
That's a real craftman job, you did there. Congrats !!

Timbo, what kind of buzz do you get ? I mean which frequency in Hz does it produces ? 60 Hz, 120 Hz ? 120 Hz is between a A# note (117 Hz) & a B note (123 Hz) on your guitar (6th string ; 6th/7th fret). 60Hz is one octave lower i.e. same thing on a bass guitar.

Can you post a closer pic of the input jack + grounding ?
 
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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2011, 10:31:38 pm »
Hi archaos,The buzz is all the time even w/o a lead plugged in

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2011, 11:20:37 pm »
I'd bet dollars that your problem is a ground loop somewhere.  It's a beautiful build, gorgeous even, but there is a LOT going on and it only takes that 1 single point to drive you nuts.  VMS was taking you down a logical path of grounding inputs to different stages.  You're looking for the stage where grounding the input has no affect on the buzz.  Work backwards until you find the stage, then triple check your grounding.  Another process of elimination is divide and conquer.  Start disconnecting signal paths until you remove the buzzy part.  Start with the reverb circuit since it's (for lack of a better term) superfluous.  An oscilloscope would be your best friend right about now.  If you don't have one, build a listening probe and use one of your other amps to ear your way through the circuit.
 

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2011, 04:29:07 am »
Timbo, where's your Earth bond in the chassis ? It should normally be bolted to the chassis, & left alone : nothing else must be connected to it. Is it the case ?
As regards the parasitic noises, I'd bet it's due to a ground loop. Try connecting one or several gator clips/wires from the input jack ground to a local star ground in the chassis or at a same point in the chassis to see what happens. I do think your input jack could be insufficiently grounded.
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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2011, 05:53:14 am »
Thanks archaos, I did some alterations to day and have not been able to fire it up as it is getting late.

Things i did :-

Revised the PSU as attached.
The earth bond is beside the IEC with no other grounds connected to it.
The reservoir cap has the PT CT,VVR, bias, power tubes cathode grounds connected to it with a wire and lug bolted at the PT bolt
Shortened the wires to the PI.
Rewired the heaters and connected CT to power tube cathode.

Keep u posted

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2011, 03:26:51 pm »
Timbo, the schemtic doesn't help right now. It's the exact layout for everything that's important - how and where everything is connected and installed.
Do you still have all of your control's grounds from the different stages all connected to each other?
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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2011, 04:09:05 pm »
Hi jojokeo,I have the preamp cathodes grounds and clipping circuit grounds linked together on the circuit board that is then connected to the earth buss on the TS, pots etc. this is then connected to the preamp cap can.

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Re: Number of plate-loads per filter cap
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2011, 04:17:09 pm »
Yes i guess i do but that can't be helped when using a 2X 50uf cap can

 


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