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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Oscillators  (Read 9676 times)

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Offline Ritchie200

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Oscillators
« on: November 02, 2011, 11:38:20 pm »
Question:  In an attempt to build the "perfect" tuned tank circuit, if I know the capacitance and voltage, how do I figure the inductor size?  What is confusing me is that it would seem that the circuit would perform with whatever I would throw in there for the inductor, or would it?  Also, how would I drive this with a DC voltage?  

I have seen the basic diagrams, but I am having a hard time visualizing the actual circuit...

As always, thank you guys!
Jim
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 01:19:53 am by Ritchie200 »

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Offline FYL

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Re: Ocillators
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 08:55:51 am »
C loves voltage, L craves for current. A loaded C will discharge thru the // L. Once empty, it will replenish from L, and the oscillation begins, damped by internal losses (there's no perfect L, all show resistance; ditto for Cs).

The "tank" will oscillate if the C and L reactances are equal.

The resonant frequency F is easily calculated, F = 1 / (2 * Pi * SQR (L * C)), with L in henries and C in farads
Or, if you set F and C, you can rearrange the equation and calculate L.

As F > 0 > DC, you need AC somewhere...

What is the intended application?


Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Ocillators
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2011, 07:11:44 pm »
Imagine if you will....  I am interested in what happens between the plates of the capacitor, yes plates - but that is another story.  This will be a closed system, and I'm not sure if that will even work?

If I supply AC, will it then run away at the "desired" freq?  How would that work?  I mean we see it all the time in our amps, but doesn't it fight the AC freq that you are applying?  Add to it?  I am just trying to understand the theory behind it.

Thanks!
Jim

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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Ocillators
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2011, 05:58:22 pm »
I am interested in what happens between the plates of the capacitor ...  I am just trying to understand the theory behind it.

I am assuming that when you say "tank circuit" that you are talking about L in parallel with C; that's the circuit this term is normally applied to.

Assume C is charged to some voltage, V, that L and C are perfect components, and there is no resistance in the circuit. Then imagine a see-saw.

C has parallel plates which are electrically insulated from one another, but there is one plate full of negative charge (tons of electrons) and the other plate is full of positive charge (tons of atoms with missing electrons). If C were not connected to anything, there would be no path for current to flow, and an electrostatic attraction between the opposite charges on either side of the center insulator. So the electrons can't flow through the insulator to the positive plate, but they feel the opposite charge pulling on them.

You now connect an L across the cap; the coiled wire of the L is still a path for the electrons to flow off of the negative plate to the positive charge they are drawn to. So, C discharges through L, and all the electrons rush around to the other plate.

You know how reactive components can't instantly change their charge? That is, there is a ramp-up/down of voltage and/or current? That effect is present here. The inductance of L keeps the electrons from moving all at one instant (current starts at zero and rises according to the time constant of the circuit). Further, the movement of the electrons constitutes current; inductors oppose change of current, even after all the electrons from the negative plate fill all the holes in the positive plate.

So there is an instant when the current through L is at a maximum, and the net charge on each plate is zero; but the inductance keeps the current flowing until electrons are displaced from the previously negative plate to the previously positive plate. Eventually, the energy of the flowing electrons, which was stored in L's magnetic field is released, and has been used to move electrons to the from one plate of the C to the other.

Now, all the energy which was previously stored in L's magnetic field is now stored in C's electrostatic field, and the position of which plate is + and - has switched. At this point, current is zero and voltage is at a maximum.

If both components are perfect, and there is zero resistance in the circuit, there is no energy wasted from the circuit, and no energy needs to be supplied to the circuit. The charge keeps flip-flopping from one plate to the other, at a speed determined by the values of C and L. All that is needed is an initial charge on C.

Real circuits have resistance; therefore, the oscillation starts at a certain level and dies away rapidly. How rapidly depends on how much R there is, which defines the Q of the circuit. So real circuits find some way to inject energy into the circuit, if a sustained oscillation is desired.

Picture that see-saw again. If the center fulcrum is so rusted it's seized up, that's like very high R. If the fulcrum were perfectly frictionless, and each person on the see-saw held a bungee cord suspended from a ceiling, so that upward motion on one side stored energy in the bungee on the other side, that would approximate a tank with perfect components. The a.c. injected in the real circuit should be the same frequency as the desired oscillation; imagine the two ends of the see-saw trying to move up at the same time, or at least out-of-sync... it just don't work.

You still haven't said what you're trying to apply this to. Tank circuits probably make good oscillators at RF; real components needed don't make sense at audio frequencies, compared to other kinds of oscillator circuits.

Offline PRR

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Re: Ocillators
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2011, 09:05:02 pm »
> would perform with whatever I would throw in there for the inductor, or would it?

Yes, at different Frequency.

> how would I drive this with a DC voltage?

You don't.

SHOW US what you are working-on or pondering.

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Ocillators
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2011, 03:51:14 am »
Well, upon further study (thanks to the fine explanations you guys gave me!), my oscillator idea is not going to work.  I need one plate of my cap to remain exclusively positive and the other negative at just 3v each (10 amps) - but to become fully charged and then drop to zero and charged again at a certain frequency.  How to discharge the cap at extreme high speed?  OR, Hmmm...can I modulate the constant DC at a certain freq without changing polarity on the cap?  I'm not even sure how to do that...  A 555 timer triggering...what?

Thanks!
Jim

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Offline PRR

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Re: Ocillators
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 11:27:00 pm »
Does this involve gunpowder?

Offline Willabe

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Re: Oscillator
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 11:40:21 pm »
Does this involve gunpowder?

           :w2:                :laugh:                    


          
                             Brad          :l2:

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Ocillators
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2011, 01:19:20 am »
As big a pyro that I am, NO!   :blob8:

When I say high speed discharge of the cap, I mean capacitor! At about 10,000 cps.  Or, if I can modulate the +/- 3vdc "carrier" at that freq.  Maximum current draw could be 10-30amps so I need some switching components that can handle some grunt - if I am actually switching the two voltages at that rate.  I want to do some experiments with the field that is created between the (actual) plates of the capacitor.

Think along the lines of the pic below in a vacuum, or with various gasses present.  I know, its all been done, but I want to physically prove out some things.

Thanks!
Jim

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Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Ocillators
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2011, 05:26:09 pm »
When I say high speed discharge of the cap, I mean capacitor! At about 10,000 cps.  ... Maximum current draw could be 10-30amps so I need some switching components that can handle some grunt ...

10kHz is not high-speed, exactly. 10MHz would be high-speed. Except if you want to move big currents, then maybe that is fast.

How fast can you exchange a teacup-full of water between two tea cups? How fast can you exchange a swimming-pool-full of water between two swimming pools?

Big current implies big caps, which then needs a LOT of energy to exchange charges. Your saving grace may be the low voltages you're describing.

But again, why not just say exactly what you're thinking about trying?

Offline PRR

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Re: Oscillators
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2011, 10:54:43 pm »
> why not just say exactly what you're thinking about trying?

I'm not sure we want to know.

I do smell ozone.

> discharge of the cap... At about 10,000 cps... current draw could be 10-30amps

Are you old enough to remember changing points in a car?

2,400RPM cruise in a V-8 is 160Hz discharge of about 4 Amps.

Points lasted 100-200 hours.

You want points 50 times lighter (to slap fast enough) yet 5 times bigger (to handle the current).

Points got replaced with transistor modules. DuraSpark and HEI work very well at 160+ Hz and 6 Amps current. They certainly won't spark 50 times faster without major mods. Reliability is good at 6A but marginal at 10A and more would blow them.

10,000Hz at 30 Amps in a BJT is a serious chore. MOSFETs will switch that much that fast but driving their Gates that fast is hard work.

Long before transistors or tubes, megaWatt radio transmitters were built. The Alexanderson Alternator spun real fast and would jolt 10,000 times a second (we didn't Hertz yet) with thousands of Watts of output. Posession of the Alexanderson became a political football at the start of world war I, when the US wanted overseas radio and Marconi's allegances were unclear. (I used to work near the shack where Marconi did not finally get his Alexanderson.)

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Oscillators
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2011, 11:54:50 pm »
Ha! Ha!  No, just wanting to run a few innocent experiments with different gasses in an "excited" electrical field - nothing earth shattering!

OK, scrub the switching.  How about modulating the two (+/-3v) at that freq?  I'm not sure how to introduce the signal?  We are talking simple AM-type modulation, correct?  I then have to decide the amplitude of each?  ARRRGHHH, it's late and I'm typing out loud.....  My brain is not working.... If the baseline voltage is 3, I could only go less so the peaks for each wave would be +3v and -3v, correct?  What can I build to produce two independent, variable freq, well formed (actually, this is not necessary, they could be ugly!), sine waves?  Again, the + side wave can not go negative and the - side wave can not go positive, but they both can go to zero.

And thank you for your continued interest in my ramblings.... :offtheair:
Jim

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Offline PRR

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Re: Oscillators
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2011, 09:10:05 pm »
> the + side wave can not go negative and the - side wave can not go positive, but they both can go to zero.

Zero relative to what? If there's just two electrodes in an insulated jar, "zero" is anything you want. Most conveniently, either one electrode or the average of the two electrodes.

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Oscillators
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2011, 11:22:04 pm »
Ooops!  Zero meaning 0v.  So I would have a "positive" sine wave that was 0 to +3v so my amplitude would be 1.5v.  This would be applied to one plate.  Then a separate "negative" sine wave that was 0 to -3v so my amplitude there would be -1.5v.  This would be applied to the other plate.  I would need the supplies to be in phase with each other.  Hmmm, when we are talking about a positive wave and a negative wave would the following be considered "in phase"?  If the positive waveform is at +3v, I need the negative waveform to be at -3v.  Gees, I have no idea how to build this....

Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline PRR

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Re: Oscillators
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2011, 11:20:44 am »
> Zero meaning 0v

I understand that.

But there IS NO ABSOLUTE ZERO VOLTAGE.

It's all relative. Zero can be whatever you want.

In geographic Altitude we often call Sea Level "zero" and measure up/down from there. But we could instead reference the bottom of the Marianas Trench or the top of Mount Everest. Indeed in the midwest the survey reference is a brass plug in the capital city, whatever height that may be relative to the distant sea level.

And where do you figure 30 Amp sparks with 3 Volt excitation?

 


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