Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 08, 2025, 12:50:34 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: fender twin as preamp only?  (Read 5783 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Searing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 285
  • All's well that sounds well
Hoffman Amps Forum image
fender twin as preamp only?
« on: May 28, 2013, 08:27:51 pm »
A bad back that has only been helped a bit by major surgery is demanding a lighter rig!!!  I currently have the head and the cab seperated, and am only using one speaker with two of the power tubes pulled.  I want to use the Twin head as just a preamp feeding a light SS power amp.  So...I want to remove all of the weight I can.  How to proceed?  Getting rid of the transformers, except the reverb and the choke, but how do I supply the needed power to the Twin as a preamp?  Filter cap change?  I am cutting out channel one completely, and litteraly.  I am going to somehow mount the chassis in a 4 space rack with the Carvin DCM200L SS amp.  I know this sounds bizzarre, but I need to save my back.  Thanks!

Chris

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 09:13:26 pm »
You may not need the choke at all.

I notice from the AB763 Twin Reverb schematic that the preamp is fed from a 410vdc supply node, with the reverb drive tube fed from nearly 460vdc. Let's say 420vdc is our target power supply voltage.

If you follow every tube for the Vibrato channel and calculate the tube currents by dividing cathode voltage by cathode resistance, the entire vibrato preamp draws just under 10mA.

The existing Vibrato channel has 4x 12A_7 tubes, which draw 1.2A from a 6.3v filament winding. You might need an extra cathode follower to drive output cable capacitance and/or provide a low output impedance to feed the input of your solid state power amp. So add another 300mA to allow for another tube; 6.3vac @ 1.5A.

No telling how much plate current the cathode follower may need, so we could allow another 5-10mA for it from the high voltage supply, or you could cheat and use a MOSFET source follower.

Now our requirements are laid out: 420vdc @ 10-20mA, 6.3vac @ 1.5A

420v/1.414 = ~297v, so a 350v PT winding would give some excess voltage to be dropped in filtering. For maximum weight reduction, skip full-wave rectifiers in favor of a solid-state bridge. So you want a 350v winding at 20mAdc or a 175-0-175v winding which will have a center-tap which you will not use.

350v * 1.414 = ~495v peak.

Let's pack a bunch of capacitance in the power supply and have a 100uF cap (or bigger if you like), followed by a resistor and another 100uF cap. Maybe even 2 pi-filters. The circuit may not draw enough current to excite the choke enough to do its job (I don't know the minimum current for a Fender choke), so resistors are fine. You'll have to stack at least the first filter stage or two with at least 300v caps to get the needed voltage rating.

75v / .02A / 2 = 1875Ω

A 350v @ 20mA transformer is not a common part, but Edcor has a 350v @ 60mA PT with a 6.3v 2A winding. The output voltage will likely be a bit high due to your under-loading, so you'll probably have 2kΩ for the first dropping resistor (455vdc at this node) and 2kΩ for the next dropping resistor (415vdc at this node). You can bump those up if needed (2.2kΩ, 2.7kΩ). 3w ratings for these resistors should be plenty.

There is also no need to feed so many preamp stages from the same supply node, so you could add a couple extra nodes, which will further reduce ripple on the way to the input tube.

Edcor lists the weight for the transformer mentioned as 1.6lbs. You could likely reduce total weight further if you don't mangle the original Twin chassis, but put this in a different rack chassis. You should be able to get everything in a package smaller than 4U.

Offline Searing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 285
  • All's well that sounds well
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 09:22:55 pm »
Thanks Hot blue plates.  That's all greek to me.  :dontknow: I will however attempt to decode it over the next few days. 

Chris

Offline eleventeen

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 09:52:10 pm »
At the risk of whatever....you can go buy a 1 x 12" Fender solid state amp used for $100 or so. I did this, and I will admit I am not that happy with it, so I bought another amp a Peavey Valveking 112  -  with 2 x 6L6 and 12" speaker. The stock speaker is horrible, but I have an Altec I am planning to put into it. These amps can be had for under $250 used, I bot mine for $190. I find them quite ruggedly built and The Peavey logo is removable in case that's a form of embarassment. Instead of modding your Twin or blowing it up (you don't sound that experienced, electronics-wise) I would prefer this kind of approach. And I have a SF Princeton Rev and a SF Deluxe reverb...I just don't wish to drag those amps around quite as much as I once did.

Offline eleventeen

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 11:06:54 pm »
Plus...a Twin Rev chassis is wider than a 19" rack...so you'd have to go custom there, too.

Put your amp back together and find a used Peavey Valveking. That's my advice.

Y'know, it's enigmatic....25 years ago, nobody wanted Princeton or Deluxe Reverbs, and they were everywhere for $125-$175, as many as you wanted to buy. Had to have a TWIN!!!! Or a SHOWMAN! Now the roles are reversed. I saw a near-museum grade BF Del Rev go for $2900 on ebay the other day.

Come on.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 11:11:54 pm by eleventeen »

Offline phsyconoodler

  • SMG
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4679
  • honey badger don't give a ****
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 11:44:56 pm »
a twin Fender preamp isn't going to sound that good through an SS power amp anyway.

 Don't get a freakin' peavey! Get a smaller Tube amp and a collapsible dolly to cart it around.

 Peavey valveking? Are you freakin' crazy?
Honey badger don't give a ****

Offline drew

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 329
  • I love tube amps
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 11:40:13 pm »
Why not just sell the Twin and get LooseChange to build you a preamp?  http://www.el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=14282.0

Offline kagliostro

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 7740
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2013, 04:09:49 am »
Good remembrance Drew, those of LooseChange is really a cool project  :thumbsup:

K
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline eleventeen

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2013, 12:57:00 pm »
"Peavey valveking? Are you freakin' crazy?"

Nope. Good sounding and very flexible amp if you put in a good speaker. Very ruggedly built, with pretty strong reviews all over the place. A decent condition used one under $250, you could not get the parts for the thing for that much, never mind building it. I had the same issues regarding a Peavey, but these are pretty darn good amps.

Box: $75.
handle, knobs, corners $20
Tubes: $20 (2*6L6, 3*12AX7)
Rev can, half size $20.
Jacks, pots $20
Speaker =$0
Chassis, parts $100.

Total: $255. And those parts costs are ridiculously low, they do not count incoming postage, time to shop the stuff, and with zero build labor.

Offline Searing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 285
  • All's well that sounds well
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2013, 07:29:53 pm »
Drew,

That's what I should have done, but I went and ordered a SMS classic preamp with the Jerry Garcia mods.  I am sure that I will someday make my own, it's just this back shit has me off my game.  :BangHead:

Chris

Offline eleventeen

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2013, 07:11:03 pm »
I just wanted to report on the swap-in of a real speaker to this used Peavey ValveKing 112 I bought. I hesitated a tad because the stock speaker (known to be a complete POS) is 16 ohm; so, I built this little deal with 3 qty paralleled 20 ohm / 25 watt resistors I happened to have, in series to form a 7 ohm resistor in series with the 8 ohm Altec 417-8H speaker I threw in. (In the old days I never would have even thought about putting an 8 ohm speaker in) I *DID* have to cut away a corner of the 6L6 tube protector-cage deal to acccomodate the bigger speaker magnet but no big deal. Hack it away with a hand grinder, file off the sharp edges.

Excellent. Sounds every bit as good as my hopped-up (w/2 6L6's) SF Princeton Reverb which also has an Altec 417-8H in it. Clean, open, singy. I bet it would improve some more with domestic (RCA/Sylvania) 6L6's and even more, better quality 12AX7's. I wish the amp didn't get about 8 lbs heavier but nothin's free. I am completely happy with this thing. Capable of being rather blackfacey in tone, I don't play distorted too much...so I have not extensively explored the amps' capabilities in that department. With boost, it can get pretty loud.

These amps are a complete steal, bought used in good condition for less than what the parts cost. There are fora with some mod information on these, if you are so inclined.....it is not easy nor intuitive as to how you delete/insert parts on a PC-board built amp. There *does* seem to be some improvements that were made (these have been in production for close to a decade) in later production runs that relate to shielding and general quietness. Thus, I would try to find a newer one; whatever that means and however one would detect same.

No hesitation recommending this thing, none, zero.



« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 07:59:43 pm by eleventeen »

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2013, 09:48:52 am »
Very clever!

You know, I bet you could have just taken off the 6L6 tube shield. I think Peavey includes that for safety certification, so you can't accidentally burn your hand (the preamp tubes are already in shields).

Offline eleventeen

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2013, 12:15:18 pm »
I did....to hack away at it. Held in by 4 qty #4 (or the equiv metric) screws. There is no crossbar across the top-rear of the amp like on a Fender, so I wanted to preserve the 6L6-cage as mechanical protection for the 6L6's. The 12AX7s are kind of inboard from the back row so they are good to go. The tube cage is kind of a folded (like a chassis) box albeit with vent holes and I figured out a way to cut out a corner yet still preserve the mechanical strength of the box. Yes, it will be a slight PITA to change the 6L6's...if I was in an experiment phase with this, I would take the cage off & leave it off. Traveling around as a working amp, I'm happier with  the protective cage on.

You can say what you will about Peavey (and I have always looked askance at them until this) but the 6L6s' are RUGGEDLY held in by the clips and the 9 pin sockets are very tight. They look quite "industrial" on the inside, not at all like standard PC-mount sockets. They have a very large footprint; size of a silver dollar...they are reminiscent of those nice rugged octal relay sockets with the screws to make the connections--except 9-pin, of course. Other than a bias or prejudice against PC-board construction (which I won't argue with, you either have it or not) I believe any EL34'er would be impressed with the way these are built. Very sturdy.

Offline Searing

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 285
  • All's well that sounds well
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2013, 03:14:05 pm »
44 pounds is too much for my back.  I am intrigued by that amp though.  I bought a 4 pound pre-amp (SMS Classic with Jerry Garcia mods) and a 4 pound Carvin SS amp.  Also, a furman power conditioner.  So.....total rig weight is about 14 pounds.  easy on the back.  Speaker cab is a single JBL K120 in a birch cabinet I made.  Good stuff.

Chris

Offline eleventeen

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2013, 04:13:32 pm »
Yeah....I'll admit that with the Altec in it,  it is definitely not as light as I would like. Ain't no Twin Reverb but it ain't no Princeton, either. I don't know a way around this conundrum other than a sand amp, and that didn't cut the mustard for me when I tried it....and I am not especially picky about tone, as I play using a POD which does almost all the tonality for me. But the sand amp sounded very flat, not "wrap around". You have to get it into a bigger venue to detect this; in a small rehearsal room, SS is OK.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2013, 05:54:58 pm »
Altec 417 is a great speaker, but was designed for permanent installation (movie theater).

If you have more money than back strength, the very new Neobium magnet speakers are MUCH lighter (and smaller bump). Prolly save 4 pounds right there.

Offline eleventeen

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: fender twin as preamp only?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2013, 07:34:45 pm »
I couldn't beat the "already owned it" price, PRR!

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password