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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Custom Champ to Herzog modification  (Read 27416 times)

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Offline TIMBO

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2014, 04:44:30 am »
Hi guys, Well this has open a can of worms.....................
Got a valve Jr. with pretty much the same circuit as the champ just with an EL84, Hmmmmmmmmmm.........

Whata think......................

(I modded it to a hotrod and never really liked it)  :dontknow:

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2014, 05:51:52 am »
To jjsilli's point, I do think we are in new territory.  All due respect to KOC, but I have not seen any preamps with a blazing 6V6.  Many amps do not get on peak (as I call it) until the power tubes are working hard.  It is certainly true on all the old Marshalls and heck even the Fenders.  I have yet to hear a preamp that really sounds like a cranked amp.  This is certainly a new flavor!


Jim
The sound a speaker makes when moving cannot and never will be duplicated  in a preamp.  Here is where the dying breed thrives.  KOC believes stage volume was too loud and I agree to a point.  Even though I can take a smaller amp and achieve power tube distortion, the distortion produced by 6V6 is not as exciting to me as 6L6.  This idea continues with EL34's and even furthers itself with 4 of them.  I am sure the same is true for KT88.

Recording is much different than live and live is no longer all really live.  In the days before digital recording, we had to get it right and make it sound right, usually on a smaller scale.  Tons of small amps were studio amps.  When playing you LP's live (remember long playing) you had to replicate the sound made in the studio with large amps.  It is not a large stretch to amplify a champ.  Sort of what we are doing today.  Using smaller amps through larger ones.  Difference is the new Herzog is a cranked Deluxe into massive SS amps.

When some of the guys of the 60 and 70 and even into the 80's successfully did achieve that close to studio tone with big stage amps we had something you do not see much of any more.  Not in the same way.  The live album.  Some even sounded better, but our living rooms were filled with waist high speakers and our women did not relegate them to the basement.  Simply different times.

You will never capture Foghat Live or Frampton Comes Alive and yes Made in Japan using a studio champ or direct into what ever the digital of the day recording recording software is. 

Anyone who reaches back and rediscovers the original reamping will rediscover the excitement that was associated with it at that time.  Maybe I am wrong, but I do not ever see this happening again when most of the music listened to these days is done on headphones where the largest element of why we love amps is missing.  I know I am old as I cannot listen top music through the things you put in your ears.  The music I grew up on only exists in small spots, but in these small spot the young guys and now girls share that same excitement I had and it is great when I stumble upon it.

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2014, 06:48:19 am »
Anyone who reaches back and rediscovers the original reamping will rediscover the excitement that was associated with it at that time.  ...


You just eminded me of Pete Anderson reamping guitar tracks for Dwight Yoakam... I had forgotten about that and hadn't equated it with the Herzog, but it's the same thing (once we're talking about an interface box rather than a complete amp device).


... most of the music listened to these days is done on headphones where the largest element of why we love amps is missing.  I know I am old as I cannot listen top music through the things you put in your ears. ...


First off, point taken: speaker moving air, thump in your chest, etc. Yes, there is no substitute.


That said, I now listen to music through headphones, as it's cheaper to get world-class headphones and headphone amps and you don't have to worry about the room boogering your sound. That and I can listen any hour of the day or night in an apartment setting with no worry. But there are some massive qualitative differences between what I'm using and the $20 earbuds many have (though I do have a set of $20 earbuds which are disproportionately good for the price).


So I'm enjoying recorded music better with headphones than I could any other way without being independently wealthy... But I know a bedroom amp with headphones won't give the same visceral experience that a cranked Marshall will. I guess there's a time and place for everything...

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2014, 07:59:18 am »
Anyone who reaches back and rediscovers the original reamping will rediscover the excitement that was associated with it at that time.  ...


You just eminded me of Pete Anderson reamping guitar tracks for Dwight Yoakam... I had forgotten about that and hadn't equated it with the Herzog, but it's the same thing (once we're talking about an interface box rather than a complete amp device).


... most of the music listened to these days is done on headphones where the largest element of why we love amps is missing.  I know I am old as I cannot listen top music through the things you put in your ears. ...


First off, point taken: speaker moving air, thump in your chest, etc. Yes, there is no substitute.


That said, I now listen to music through headphones, as it's cheaper to get world-class headphones and headphone amps and you don't have to worry about the room boogering your sound. That and I can listen any hour of the day or night in an apartment setting with no worry. But there are some massive qualitative differences between what I'm using and the $20 earbuds many have (though I do have a set of $20 earbuds which are disproportionately good for the price).


So I'm enjoying recorded music better with headphones than I could any other way without being independently wealthy... But I know a bedroom amp with headphones won't give the same visceral experience that a cranked Marshall will. I guess there's a time and place for everything...
I did not say I do not have headphones.  I have some very nice ones, but I have never been able to use earbuds.


I acquired a taste for headphones in my early teens when I could not listen to speakers playing Sabbath at the level I wanted to hear.  Also, it is absolutely necessary to listen through headphones when recording as that is how the majority of listeners will hear music of today.


Just last night I had on headphones and was reamping in the style of Pete Anderson, who IMO is a great engineer.  I was just speaking to a time lost.  Napster really had an impact and put what the Sony Walkman was doing in overdrive.


HBP, I hope you know what I was saying in no way, not even close, has any reference to your headphone rig.  I am talking about an ipod, with $10 jbuds listening to mp3 compressed music.  Funny to think about how much trouble and money is put into getting the perfect recording, only to be compressed to mp3.  What is even stranger to me is how many people cannot hear any difference.  Nothing wrong with doing this, but it is a completely different experience.


Back to my original point of the excitement and to become completely animated with music.  To be so involved with it that the sense of time is lost.  We who have had that experience were not listening to an ipod with jbuds.  You cannot feel your guitar vibrate unless you are thumping those strings man.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2014, 08:01:02 am »
Well this sure sparked some conversation!
Lot's of great info here, I am sure it will help me figure out what to do when I get to my project.
I am still thinking a self contained Herzog as a preamp and a dedicated amp on the other side too.  I'll make the herzog switchable so if I am not in the mood for crazy thick distortion, I can switch it off and have some note articulation back.
I'll report back when I am ready to begin.
Good job Silvergun! :thumbsup:
Thanks TG,
Honestly,, this was partially done to satisfy my own selfish pursuit of a really powerful tone with ultimate sustain :icon_biggrin:....after I watched that video I HAD to try it!

I agree with you that it would be a cool idea for you to build it as a dedicated "preamp"...I think that will give you the chance to improve on some of the design questions that have been brought up,,,and like you said, make it switchable. I'm really looking forward to what you come up with.  :thumbsup:
Even if you wind up building it 100% original I seriously believe it's worth the effort. I haven't heard anything else that made my ears perk up immediately, like this little trick did.

I'm glad we've got all these guys that can remember back that far.  :l2:


Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2014, 08:06:54 am »
Just got finished running my experiment and I like it and think and think it is worth further looking into.  I did not notice any additional heat from the 6v6.  Tried a 5881 as well.  Sounded basically the same.  The champ I have only has a volume know so so all tone control was from the main amp.   I tried a couple of other resistors close the the 150.  Did not ever got hot.

I liked it, but full throttle is not possible since a champ muddies and simply is passing this along.  I tried it with a 9 watt se amp I have and was able yo get more distortion with less mud.  Either way, it is way more tuby sounding than any diodes which is sort of stupid to say.  I an not a fan of the new Marshall stuff, but must admit they have taken high gain into a new area.

Give me a little time to digest.  I may have some valuable input.  Not sure right now as I did not really do any tone shaping.   The el34's held up no sweat.
Ed, I'm glad to hear you tried it....I think it's important enough that it's worth a look.....and simple enough to throw something together and come to your own conclusion.
For me, I really think this is something to move forward with and expand on....I like the way it makes the strings move under my fingers!


Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2014, 08:08:29 am »
Hi guys, Well this has open a can of worms.....................
Got a valve Jr. with pretty much the same circuit as the champ just with an EL84, Hmmmmmmmmmm.........

Whata think......................
DO IT TIMBO! ....you won't be sorry  :thumbsup:

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2014, 08:16:45 am »
To jjsilli's point, I do think we are in new territory.  All due respect to KOC, but I have not seen any preamps with a blazing 6V6.  Many amps do not get on peak (as I call it) until the power tubes are working hard.  It is certainly true on all the old Marshalls and heck even the Fenders.  I have yet to hear a preamp that really sounds like a cranked amp.  This is certainly a new flavor!
Well,,,,,,color TV is still new to you, so I don't know if you're ready for this  :dontknow:
 :wink:

I've got about 10 of these lying around if you want to try the reverse of this,,, with the Major pushing a Champ!!!

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2014, 09:04:04 am »
To jjsilli's point, I do think we are in new territory.  All due respect to KOC, but I have not seen any preamps with a blazing 6V6.  Many amps do not get on peak (as I call it) until the power tubes are working hard.  It is certainly true on all the old Marshalls and heck even the Fenders.  I have yet to hear a preamp that really sounds like a cranked amp.  This is certainly a new flavor!
Well,,,,,,color TV is still new to you, so I don't know if you're ready for this  :dontknow:
 :wink:

I've got about 10 of these lying around if you want to try the reverse of this,,, with the Major pushing a Champ!!!
That is one hell of a dummy load.  Can you tap that thing in different areas?  I have one that looks similar mounted the back of my bench and has a sliding collar.  Very nice to use and the never get hot.

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2014, 09:26:09 am »
I actually just snatched that pic off the internet to fill the need....

But I do have a bunch around here because they are very common in welding machines....some are fixed value and others have the sliding collar.

The shop guys call 'em "corn-cobs"

Jimbo might be able to cook a steak if he lays them out like a grill rack  :icon_biggrin:

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2014, 08:46:42 pm »
Ed, that was......beautiful....sniff.... :cry:

I know a lot of younger guys think this is just a bunch of old farts bragging about who was louder, where, and when, blah, blah, blah pissing contest...  There is more to it than just pure dB.  It is the whole package, tubes workin hard, speakers workin hard, and a player who can PLAY that setup - a challenge with every venue.  Some of the older bands still have crushing stage volume.  Black Sabbath for example.  If you are ever down front and out of the PA spread, Geezer will rattle you so bad yours eyes cant focus and Tony will have you wishing you brought ear plugs.  But boy, the glorious sound that comes out of the PA when they mix all that is unmatched.  Years ago Ozzie would be in front of Tony's amps and his voice was distorted because of the sound pressure coming from Tony's stacks.  Speaking of Deep Purple's Made in Japan - holy crap!  That was pure heaven and it was when they were known as the Loudest Band in the World.  Early ZZ Top had 4 100watt  Super Lead stacks basically dimed for guitar and bass.  Have you heard the early live stuff on Fandango?  Wow...  There are SO many great examples.

SG, leave it to you to call it a "Dummy Load"...... :icon_biggrin:

I used to use two Altair attenuators back in the late 70's - early 80's on my Major.  It actually had a stove burner element to soak the power!!  I am not kidding!  And yes, they did get hot!

Jim

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2014, 08:58:27 pm »
Here ya go.  Plus just a great tune, complete with all of Tony's wonderful pick hamonics!

Jim

Black Sabbath - Symptom Of The Universe live 1978

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2014, 10:35:13 pm »
SG, leave it to you to call it a "Dummy Load"...... :icon_biggrin:
damnit....that wasn't me...it was Ed  :cussing:

I love the idea of the stove burner heat dissipater!! :l2:.....classic comedy...you can't make that stuff up!

My goal with this would be to make something that gets that crushing power FEEL at a manageable stage volume.....(sound familiar)
The days of even the half stack are over, but I'd like to have an ultimately controllable sustain unit that feels like a cranked Champ through just about anything else...

For YOU to truly understand this you're gonna have to take your old dry-rotted coiled up geetar cable and plug it into a different amplifier!!
That means plug one end into a Strat and plug the other end into something that you have never plugged into before.  :huh:

Ed can explain this in detail if you need him too.
 :icon_biggrin:

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2014, 06:50:15 pm »
If I plugged into something different, would I be able to differentiate between if you bent over, for example, and a Fender something?


Jim :m8

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Can we have everything louder than everything else?

Offline SILVERGUN

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2014, 08:20:32 pm »
:huh:  :lipsrsealed:

Yes,,,,you would notice a HUGE difference!

 :help:

 :anyone:


Offline Willabe

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2014, 08:30:54 pm »
:huh:  :lipsrsealed:

Yes,,,,you would notice a HUGE difference!

 :help:

 :anyone:

What? You got your self in this mess.      :laugh:

Now listen, you fellas play nice or I'll turn this car around and then nobody gets to see Disney land.


               Brad      :l2:

Offline TIMBO

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2014, 08:49:59 pm »
BOYS will be BOYS.....................

Offline Ritchie200

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Re: Custom Champ to Herzog modification
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2014, 12:18:00 am »
What?  What did I do? I was just trying to find out some detail, that's all.  :angel


Jim

My religion? I'm a Cathode Follower!
Can we have everything louder than everything else?

 


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