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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Quick question regarding my 2204  (Read 2932 times)

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Offline hesamadman

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Quick question regarding my 2204
« on: October 23, 2014, 04:56:16 pm »
I haven't biased the a amp in a while. I haven't changed tubes either. Played it today on the shop and as I cranked the volume it started to cut out. I didn't have any new el34's to try but I did put in some new 12ax7. Since the amp had been moved and played a lot I decided to check the bias. I found it at 48mv rather than 38mv like it should be. What could have caused this bias change and could that have made my output tubes start to fail?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Quick question regarding my 2204
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2014, 05:42:38 pm »
... I found it at 48mv rather than 38mv like it should be. What could have caused this bias change ...

Probably normal tube drift. It's normal. It's also why folks that have only known solid-state test equipment laugh at the phrase "vacuum-tube regulated power supply" as tube drift can impair the output stability, at least compared to the rock-solid performance of pretty much any solid-state regulator.

... could that have made my output tubes start to fail?

Not a chance. Even if your B+ was 520v, 48mA would still cause the tube to stay within its dissipation rating. And you could probably exceed that rating by 30% and still have a tube that'll work fine when returned to normal operation.

"Cutting Out" sure sounds like an intermittent connection to me. You have a lot of things to rule out between the guitar pickup and speaker which could be intermittent and cause cutting out.

Offline hesamadman

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Re: Quick question regarding my 2204
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 04:09:08 pm »
HBP,
Originally the amp started to crackle and lose volume on the high gain channel when it was cranked. I played this amp at low volumes for a couple weeks and never noticed a thing. Now, somewhat recently I needed a couple tubes for my breadboard so snatched the 12ax7s from my 2204. So when this issue happened, I looked at my tubes and noticed in the middle of the 12ax7s I had an old groove tube (that was pulled out of my Kistom 72 coupe from about 3 years ago) so I right away said "well theres the culprit.


I swapped it out. Lent the amp to a friend. He kept calling me about the amp cutting out while during his band practice. He then replaced the 12ax7's with new tubes. Claimed it happened again. So I went down there and checked it out. Turns out his problem was a power source chain in his pedal board  :BangHead: . This was determined after I set bias and replaced a slightly discolored EL34. Well anyway theres still the issue I had right before I lent it to him. Im assuming I took care of that with either the preamp tbe replacement or one el34 replacement. I watched his band play a live gig with it last night. Seemed to be fine during the whole show.


So anyway. Now we are on the topic of bias. I wanted to ask a question to better understand. I know bias is adding a negative voltage that helps with current flow. If no bias, the tube would allow an incredible amount of current in which would damge or explode the tube. So we adjust the bias to im assuming "divert" some of that extreme current elsewhere? So when I set the bias of my 2204 to 38mv, what is that 38 mv actually a measurement of? Is it the negative voltage that is applied to the tube?

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Quick question regarding my 2204
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 05:56:42 pm »
Turns out his problem was a power source chain in his pedal board  :BangHead: .

So the amp cutting out is fixed? If so, that's good news!  :occasion14:

Originally the amp started to crackle and lose volume on the high gain channel when it was cranked. ... So when this issue happened, I looked at my tubes and noticed in the middle of the 12ax7s I had an old groove tube (that was pulled out of my Kistom 72 coupe from about 3 years ago) so I right away said "well theres the culprit.

I have preamp tubes that have sat in the same amps for 10-15 years, with occasional use, that still function fine. Most of the preamp tubes I have are not new production, but were pulled from old equipment. They last a surprisingly long time compared to what you're led to believe by tube sellers.

Now if you told me the tube felt loose & wiggly in the socket, it could be the tube was not making good, solid contact with the socket pins. That could cause intermittent cutting out.

Notice also the way the High gain channel uses the switched contact on the Low input jack to switch in an extra gain stage when you unplug from the Low input and plug into the High input. That switched contact could be dirty and result in cutting out only on the high gain channel. Logically, if the 2 channels share 95% of the same circuitry, and the problem only happens on the High gain channel, then the problem lies in the circuitry that's unique to the high gain channel.

... on the topic of bias. I wanted to ask a question to better understand. I know bias is adding a negative voltage that helps with current flow. ...

You have a rubber band. With no stretch it's floppy. Apply enough stretch and it breaks. Let's say you stretch the rubber band to a mid-point between flop and breaking; that's "biasing the rubber band."

You do the same with your tubes. Except your "stretch" (negative bias voltage) turns down tube current from the breaking point (maximum current) closer to floppy (zero current).

So we adjust the bias to im assuming "divert" some of that extreme current elsewhere?

Remember positive & negative attract from grade school? The hot cathode emits negative electrons; the positive plate sucks the electrons out to the power supply. A course grid of spiral wire sits between the cathode & plate. If you apply no voltage to the grid, and the plate voltage is positive-enough, it sucks all the electrons emitted by the cathode through the wide gaps between grid-wires. If you apply a big-enough negative voltage to the grid, the electrostatic field created repels all the electrons back toward the cathode, and no plate current flows. If you set the negative grid voltage to some mid-point, the field retreats in closer to the individual grid wires, and some middle amount of electrons pass through unimpeded.

So current doesn't go somewhere else, it just sits back at the cathode and never goes anywhere.

So when I set the bias of my 2204 to 38mv, what is that 38 mv actually a measurement of? Is it the negative voltage that is applied to the tube?

Measuring voltage is easy with any meter. Measuring current is harder with most equipment, as you have to break the circuit, and situate the meter to complete the circuit so the current flows in/out of the meter.

If you install a 1Ω resistor between the tube cathode & ground, you can use Ohm's Law. Voltage = Current * Resistance; 38mA of current through a 1Ω resistor = 38mA * 1Ω = 38mV dropped across the resistor. Current through the resistor can be directly read as the voltage across the 1Ω resistor.

So "bias voltage" is the measure of the voltage difference from cathode to grid (almost always a negative number), while "bias current" or "idle plate current" is the tube current resulting from the application of the bias voltage. Some might refer to the voltage across the 1Ω resistor as "bias voltage" but that's technically wrong or at least misleading once you get to a point where you're really trying to understand how the amp works on a micro-level.

Offline shooter

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Re: Quick question regarding my 2204
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 07:20:47 pm »
I agree with the "sure sounds like something loose" but if the bias was out far enough would that run the tubes closer to class B, hence cutting out?
Went Class C for efficiency

Offline hesamadman

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Re: Quick question regarding my 2204
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 08:04:47 pm »
I have preamp tubes that have sat in the same amps for 10-15 years, with occasional use, that still function fine. Most of the preamp tubes I have are not new production, but were pulled from old equipment. They last a surprisingly long time compared to what you're led to believe by tube sellers.


Well I guess I should have specified that it was a set of tubes I knew to be bad. I guess that when I put the tubes back in I grabbed one of those old faulty groove tubes. But Its hard to say if thats what fixed the problem or if replacing the one el34 is the reason. The el34 had a bit of discoloration on it. The insides had a slight bit of what looked like char or a type of texture even that the other did not have. So I suspected it to maybe be the reason. After replacing these two tubes the issue has gone away. Also, the amp was (unknowingly) running a cab set at 4 ohms while the head was at 8. I dont know how or how long. But I know that set up can be hell on the output tubes.

Notice also the way the High gain channel uses the switched contact on the Low input jack to switch in an extra gain stage when you unplug from the Low input and plug into the High input. That switched contact could be dirty and result in cutting out only on the high gain channel. Logically, if the 2 channels share 95% of the same circuitry, and the problem only happens on the High gain channel, then the problem lies in the circuitry that's unique to the high gain channel.


My first idea (and this was explaining to my friend over the phone) was to run in the low gain channel and play a while and see. I know that would at least bypass the first gain stage but he had the same problem there too.


So current doesn't go somewhere else, it just sits back at the cathode and never goes anywhere.



Ok thats what I wasn't sure of. The grid almost acts as a sieve?


If you install a 1Ω resistor between the tube cathode & ground, you can use Ohm's Law. Voltage = Current * Resistance; 38mA of current through a 1Ω resistor = 38mA * 1Ω = 38mV dropped across the resistor. Current through the resistor can be directly read as the voltage across the 1Ω resistor.


This just opened up a new window in my head. Makes absolute perfect sense.

So "bias voltage" is the measure of the voltage difference from cathode to grid (almost always a negative number), while "bias current" or "idle plate current" is the tube current resulting from the application of the bias voltage. Some might refer to the voltage across the 1Ω resistor as "bias voltage" but that's technically wrong or at least misleading once you get to a point where you're really trying to understand how the amp works on a micro-level.


So were basically not concerned about the bias "voltage" Its only a term used to basically make the measurement of the "idle plate current" so much easier to measure and without disconnections and installation of amp meter. The 1ohm resistor there really does make so much more sense now. Thanks a ton HBP!!!

Offline HotBluePlates

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Re: Quick question regarding my 2204
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2014, 08:19:26 am »
I agree with the "sure sounds like something loose" but if the bias was out far enough would that run the tubes closer to class B, hence cutting out?

In class AB, if a big enough drive signal is applied, one side cuts off. But the other side is very much on, so you don't notice. The net result is output regardless of whether any one side is on or off at any one moment.

In theoretical class B, both sides are biased just to the point they cut off. Any drive signal causes one side or the other to turn on. The speaker again only knows that there is a signal if there is an applied drive signal to the output stage. The cutoff of one side is covered up by the on-condition of the other side. In practical tube amps using class B, the tubes aren't idled all the way to cut-off.

You can test this for yourself. Take a fixed bias amp. Adjust the bias so you get the maximum negative voltage possible at the output tube grids (coldest bias, least idle current, closest to class B). Play through the amp. Any cutting-out?

Offline shooter

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Re: Quick question regarding my 2204
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014, 09:57:38 am »
Thanks HBP, my brain was in theory mode, (simplified to 1 tube), not reality!
Went Class C for efficiency

 


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