5E3 tone difference between builds More chime

[olgoat]

I built a 5E3 deluxe with a lot of help from the fella's on this forum (thanks again). The other evening I had an opportunity to hear my build against another hand built 5E3 and a Victoria 5E3.    We ran all three through the Victoria cabinet which had a Celestion Blue 12".   


I noticed that my amp sounded darker than the other hand built and the Victoria.  I was not too concerned about the Victoria as Mark is a hellova a builder and God only knows what he modifies in the circuit.  But the other handbuilt looked like it was either a Mojotone or Weber kit.  It had more "chime" if you will than my build. 


I have been very happy with the tone from my amp up till that evening. 


Three things that I can think of that are different on my amp are

• I went with a Magnetic Components Classic Tone PT and have it wired for 710V  (355 per side). Stock 5E3 is 650V.   (I have an option to wire it at 660V).
• I have a choke wired in. 
• OT is a 4/8/16 ohm with a selector switch.   Celestion Blue was 8 ohms.

I have a 12ay7, 12ax7, 2-6V6 and 5Y3 rectifier.

Could any of the above three be costing me the high end that makes my build sound less "chimey" than the other two?  It is a subtle difference but it is there. 


Thank you as always for your time and any comments.  You guys are amazing.

[eleventeen]

I would think the OT (which is not on your list of possible culprits) could make more of a difference; and maybe yours is "better" (in the hi-fi sense) in the aspect that it is providing more bass response, giving the impression that your amp is darker. Plausible?


Did you take note of the different flavors of OT among the amps you sampled?

[olgoat]

No, I could not examine the OTs or the PTs for that matter.  The owners were not wild about pulling the chassis' to have a look.    The OT was #3 in my list of differences. 


Thanks
TWC


 

I would think the OT (which is not on your list of possible culprits) could make more of a difference; and maybe yours is "better" (in the hi-fi sense) in the aspect that it is providing more bass response, giving the impression that your amp is darker. Plausible?


Did you take note of the different flavors of OT among the amps you sampled?

[HotBluePlates]

You didn't mention what brand/model of OT.

Assuming yours is comparable to theirs (which is in doubt because we don't know what they used), coupling cap type can have a subtle effect on the overall sound. Assuming your amp sounded "98% like theirs" if you used polyester caps and they used polypropylene, their amp might sound a little brighter.

If it is a difference you can't adjust for by turning the tone control a hair higher, you might look into swapping the caps. Or you might drop cathode bypass caps a bit (to 1-5uF) to shave bass and leave the amp a little brighter overall.

You might even have preamp tubes which are a little fuller than what someone else used. Swapping the input preamp tube will make the most impact out of any of them.

Then again, even the old amps sound a little different between samples. I doubt Mark Baier modified a whole lot in the circuit; at one time 20 years ago he was pretty obsessive about trying to get every little part optimized (by selecting different component types, finding the perfect tube sample for each position), but I'd bet he can't do much of that anymore in a manufacturing environment. Unless you're unhappy with your amp's sound, I might let it be what it is. And if you want to change it, you can do anything you'd like.

I have a home-built 5E3 copy, and it sounds like a Deluxe to me; I've never given it a second thought about whether it sounds identical to someone else's copy. It doesn't sound quite as luscious as the '55 Tremolux I once had, but that amp had a bigger cabinet and a 50-year old speaker, so the comparison might not be realistic.

[olgoat]

Thanks for the reply.. THe OT is also Magnetic Components.   It is 4/8/16 ohm on a rotary switch on the bottom of the chassis.


The caps are all F&T.


Mine sounded good but lacked a certain shimmer that the other handbuilt had. I could not replicate it with the tone control.


The attached pic is with the original transformer (P-TF22772).  I remember the amp sounding more solid in the lower end when I swapped it out for the Classic Tone PT.

[Willabe]

Why did you rotate the PT 90 degrees?


                     Brad   

[tubeswell]

all the bits add up.


Stock 5E3 circuits like the 6V6 plates at about 350 with a shared 250R cathode resistor, a 15W 8k OT (i.e. not to  much iron),  and a vintagey 20-25W speaker with an alnico magnet. Having a saggy PT (with a HT winding rated at say 80-90mA and say 325-0-325 helps the characteristic 5E3 sound)


Popular mods to the amp include reducing the coupling caps after V1 to 0.022uF ( to get rid of the bass flab), and putting 100pF bright caps on the vol pots.


Also the settings are important - you can get more chime out of any tube amp by diming the amp vol all the way and rolling back the guitar volume quite a bit


(Edits: damn autocorrect)

[Willabe]

You might even have preamp tubes which are a little fuller than what someone else used. Swapping the input preamp tube will make the most impact out of any of them.

It would be interesting to use the 1 speaker cab/speaker, as you did, with the same tube set in all 3 amps and the same guitar. 

I doubt Mark Baier modified a whole lot in the circuit;

I don't think Mark has changed anything in his 5E3's circuit. Like HBP said, he was a stickler for as close to he could get for parts because he wanted them to sound as close as possible to a real 1. And he always, at least he used too say that his tweed amps use the same exact circuit that Fender used.

He was using Allen-Bradley CC R's and orange drop caps he ordered from them. I think he still is? The caps were rumored to be OD polyester with a heaver lead with Victoria printed on them.

Mark has said a number of times the iron sets he uses in the tweed amps are made from the Fender order spec sheets he got from an ex employee of Triad.


                                  Brad   

[olgoat]

Only way the PT would fit in the chassis cut out.


Could the choke I added be dimming the tone a bit? 


The two things I am considering is changing the PT taps to deliver 330-0-330 instead of 355-0-355 and taking the choke out. 

[SILVERGUN]

Could the choke I added be dimming the tone a bit? 

Not likely, but, where did you put it?

[Willabe]

Only way the PT would fit in the chassis cut out.

The chassis looks like it was changed/cut?

Could the choke I added be dimming the tone a bit?

Maybe?        A number of guys here have posted about a (big) difference in sound to them when trying a choke instead of an R and trying an R instead of a choke. You have to try it for yourself to see what you hear in that amps circuit.

The two things I am considering is changing the PT taps to deliver 330-0-330 instead of 355-0-355 and taking the choke out.

I'd try the choke 1st, easiest to do. Besides a 5E3 never had a choke. Did your buddies amps have a choke? I doubt the Victoria had 1. Disconnect the choke leads, (tape and stow the choke leads a little out of the way for safety) and temp in a 5K 3w(?) wire wound or metal oxide R.


                                Brad     

[olgoat]

Thanks Willabe.  I doubt the other handbuilt had a choke but I would have had to get a bit more invasive than this fellow was comfortable with to check that out. 


The choke bypass does sound like an easy first stab. 


TWC

[Willabe]

I doubt the other handbuilt had a choke.....

Ask him if it has a choke.


              Brad     

[olgoat]

he'll probably say it starts on the first pull every time... Yeah. he's not gonna know.  :)

[Willabe]

 

[ernest]

Popular mods to the amp include reducing the coupling caps after V1 to 0.022uF ( to get rid of the bass flab), and putting 100pF bright caps on the vol pots.

You did not mention the mod to the bypass caps from the cathodes of V1 that I've recently learned about. 


Are the two mods doing the same thing.  Which one would you try first when adjusting the amps sound to something you like? 

[SILVERGUN]

Could the choke I added be dimming the tone a bit? 

Not likely, but, where did you put it?

If you put the choke in place of a stock 4.7K dropping resistor between the plate and screen supply, then yes it would have a very noticeable effect.

[tubeswell]

Popular mods to the amp include reducing the coupling caps after V1 to 0.022uF ( to get rid of the bass flab), and putting 100pF bright caps on the vol pots.

You did not mention the mod to the bypass caps from the cathodes of V1 that I've recently learned about. 


Are the two mods doing the same thing.  Which one would you try first when adjusting the amps sound to something you like?

No they're not the same - changing the cathode bypass cap (Rk) is not as 'popular' as the coupling cap mod in the 5E3. Reducing the Rk leads to progressive bass freq rolloff (compared to full bypassing). Reducing the coupling cap acts in a similar way as a hi-pass filter. Both of these mods reduce bossiness, however none of these increases 'chimeyness' - that must be found in the other stuff.

If changing the Rk , you won't really notice much difference unless you go down to 1 or 2 uF. You may notice a slight reduction bass booming with 5uF but its barely noticeable.

[ernest]

Would you add the 100pf bright caps on the volume pots like this?  One end to the hot and one to the wiper on each pot?

What is this accomplishing?

[SILVERGUN]

What is this accomplishing?

Without the caps the highs would be rolled off as you decrease the volume.

With the caps there you are providing a bypass path so that the highs will get past (or go around) the pot, so at lower volume settings you would retain more brightness....usually referred to as "bright caps"