Welcome To the Hoffman Amplifiers Forum

September 08, 2025, 05:21:52 pm
guest image
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
-User Name
-Password



Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Tube Testor thread  (Read 3738 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jojokeo

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
  • Eddie and my zebrawood V in Dave's basement '77
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Tube Testor thread
« on: August 22, 2015, 04:11:10 pm »
How'z it hanging boyz? I came across this old photo of the actual tube tester I grew up seeing on so many days as a young grom when I went for an ice cream cone at our local drug store called Triftymart. It sat on a large cart right by the entrance & exit doors. You couldn't miss it if you wanted to. I'd go with my dad when it was the rare day he actually ventured inside the old TV set to get the tubes tested. Why would I go, for ice cream of course!  :icon_biggrin: You could get a single for a nickel, double scoop for a dime, and a triple for .15! Those were the days! It's no longer in business but "they" (who ever it is) actually still make the ice cream to this day! It is just plain regular ice cream in great flavors but with no added air fluffed in or other weird things put in most of today's stuff. Sorry for getting off track but in the late summer heat really good ice cream iz da best!

I'm guessing that this tester is a mutual conductance type but if anyone (PRR?) recognizes it and has any info on it to share it would be nice to see? ALSO, this thread is for others to post their testers and the pros & cons of what's needed or not, or just to share any tester and/or info they may like?
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline jojokeo

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
  • Eddie and my zebrawood V in Dave's basement '77
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2015, 04:35:20 pm »
This is the type I use mostly - a solid state 747B B&K, the other is a Hickok 539A (I think?) table model but a bit hard to get to at the moment.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline John

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1895
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2015, 08:32:13 pm »
I don't have a pic of it, but mine's a Lafayette T55. Seldom, if ever, used before I got it. I replaced a cap or 2 according to recommendations from TE forums. I only use it to test for shorts, and relative strength of the tubes. Then I stick the tube in one of my amps and see how it sounds.


 It has come in handy testing 12au7 because (if it's to be believed) it's easy to see which ones are pretty balanced and which ones aren't. Not that I have multiple VTVMs or anything.  :icon_biggrin:



Tapping into the inner tube.

Offline Toxophilite

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1426
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2015, 08:40:51 pm »
I'm guessing it's an emissions tester
One of the local electronics store still has their's...I believe they have two now
I used to take tube in to test them till I got a similar machine

Offline jojokeo

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
  • Eddie and my zebrawood V in Dave's basement '77
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2015, 08:51:36 pm »
It has come in handy testing 12au7 because (if it's to be believed) it's easy to see which ones are pretty balanced and which ones aren't. Not that I have multiple VTVMs or anything.  :icon_biggrin:
Yes they can be handy to see the balancing for those special pi locations or just to check general good/no good too even if it isn't the best or even calibrated unit. It sure is nice to get even the most modest tester readings to confirm suspicions on some tubes.
I re-capped my unit & replaced the sensitivity pot. Re calibrated & is like new. I'm not hung up on exact readings and you get a feel for your own tester anyways.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2015, 09:08:43 pm »
> guessing that this tester is a mutual conductance type

No way. These were invariably Total Emission. Does the tube flow a LOT of electrons? Sustained testing is bad for the tube. (Which is good for the store.)

Every true transconductance tester I ever saw had actual numbers, with 2,000 (uMho) somewhere near the middle.

Offline jojokeo

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
  • Eddie and my zebrawood V in Dave's basement '77
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2015, 09:36:33 pm »
Good to know - I'll consider this validated to the negative on the giant glorious tester that I remember most of anything tube related as a kid. Even the TV, I didn't care what was inside only that my favorite shows like Batman, Flipper,  mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, Johnny Quest, & Gilligan's Island were playing on it.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline HotBluePlates

  • Global Moderator
  • Level 5
  • ******
  • Posts: 13127
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2015, 10:36:59 pm »
The original picture looks much like the "U-Test-M" brand of tube testers. Try Google image search.

I couldn't find a model just like the original picture, but many that were similar. The Good/Bad scale is usually a dead giveaway of an emissions tester.

However, U-Test-M also made a version with a 0-100 calibrated scale; no telling if it does actual transconductance as it could just be a gimmick to make an emissions test look more significant. There's a video on youtube of someone demonstrating a 0-100 scale U-Test-M tester, and while the roll-chart gives a specific value to look for to ID a good tube, there were no knobs to fiddle to set the test conditions. So that smells like an emissions test...

Offline jojokeo

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2985
  • Eddie and my zebrawood V in Dave's basement '77
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2015, 11:01:53 pm »
So what about my B&K tester? It even says "mutual conductance tester" on it. Is it emission only too?
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2015, 12:26:57 am »
> B&K tester? It even says "mutual conductance tester"

Most bench Gm testers are based on the B&K design, so that's the better type.

Offline SoundmasterG

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1203
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 04:26:34 am »
I've got a B & K 747B also. It is mutual conductance, and you can find some info on them at the Tone Lizard site, whoever is hosting it these days. I took a microcontroller class in EE school a couple years ago and had to have a working project...I decided to try to make my B & K read a number that actually meant something instead of that arbitrary scale they use. I wanted it to read some that would correlate to the actual mho's (Siemens these days) that are in the tube manuals. We were doing this with assembly language and Dragon 12 microcontroller boards. I did get it sort of working, but not totally reliably and had a lot of errors to work out. I hate assembly language though so if I did something like that again I would use Arduino or something. Anyway, on the back of the B & K meter there is an AC voltage that is repeatable and consistent and different for each tube type. I am sure there is a way to get a reading that is accurate and consistent with mho's/siemens, but I haven't figured it out yet. :)

Greg

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2015, 02:45:53 pm »
> the actual mho's ... .. with assembly language and ...microcontroller boards

Oh, geez. Make a mountain out of a molehill. (OK, it was for school.)

Do you know how to test Gm?

A "dead" tube has no Gm. You have to bring it up to a happy Operating Condition. In general, the OpCon in the Tube Manual.

So you start with DC power supplies. For guitar-amp tubes we will almost always be working for the 250V plate voltage condition (seems the Old Guys left their lab-supply set at 250V), and -1V to -15V on the grid. So build a steady +250V and -15V supply. The grid eats very little current and a 9V battery (or two) may be convenienter. And of course a Heater supply.

Wire like Fig 1 below. An Amp-meter tells the plate current.

Already this is VERY useful. If you set-up a 12AX7 with 250 Vp and -2 Vg you should find about 1.2mA plate current; otherwise it aint healthy. Recall that all tube numbers are +/-20%, so "1.2mA" could be 1.0 or 1.44mA and it isn't a dud.

The definition of Gm implies causing a small change of grid voltage and measuring the change of plate current. We could add say 1V to the grid bias and observe the change of plate current. However 1V change on a 12AX7's 2V bias is not "small". Also the change will be very different if the 1V is added or subtracted. And you have to subtract two current readings to find the change.

(In fact I think the B&K et al did use a 1V change. Many old Gm plots show Gm falling-off as bias crosses 1V. This was fine for 1930s tubes which used large biases, less-fine for 1940s tubes of high gain. However larger test signals are easier to read with old passive meters; DMMs are game-changers.)

It is just as valid, and maybe easier, to insert a small AC voltage on the grid bias and measure the *AC* current output. If 0.1VAC at grid causes 0.16mA AC current in plate loop, then Gm is 0.16mA/0.1V = 0.000,160A/0.1V = 0.001,6 Mho. Because heavy-zero fractions are ugly and typo-prone, old-US practice was to multiply by a million and get uMho. 1,600 uMho. Many European sheets favor milli-Mhos (and yes, we now honor Siemens).

Figure 2 shows adjustable grid bias, AC injection, and a (small!) plate resistor to read plate current, both DC and AC.

Figure 2 will work. But having the metering up at the 250VDC point is a safety disadvantage.

Since the plate resistor must be small, and the 250V DC supply must be very solid, we can re-arrange it all to read plate-cathode current on the cathode side of the battery. Figure 3. The cathode resistor should be "small", in the sense that its DC voltage drop at test current should be much less than the DC grid bias. 12AX7 at 1.2mA for -2V bias, 2V/1.2mA is 1,667 Ohms, so we want much less than that. We also want round-numbers if possible, for easy math. 100 Ohms may be convenient.

The grid DC feed resistor must be less than the datasheet rated max grid resistor, but not so low it is hard to drive with AC. That's not a tough problem.

There should probably be a series grid resistor so we don't measure grid-current operating points which are not generally useful in amplifiers.

The signal frequency must be OK for the tube and our AC meters. The tubes are generally good from DC to far-far beyond the audio band. Many inexpensive AC meters are dubious at 20Hz and above 1KHz. The most obvious choice is to tap a 50/60Hz winding on a power transformer and divide it down to a suitable AC Volts.

Offline PRR

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 17082
  • Maine USA
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 03:18:09 pm »
So for a first draft we have something like below.

Issues: 100 Ohms (10,000 uMho) is not "negligible" compared to our tube's 1,600 uMho; nor is 0.12V DC drop truly negligible compared to our 2V bias.

The 16mV AC is already "small" compared to typical DMM accuracy. The 199mV read-out has a 1mV round-off, so we can't be sure 16mV or 17mV (1,600 or 1,700 uMho).

We could perhaps raise the 0.1V AC signal to 0.2V, then reduce 100 Ohms to 50 Ohms, get the same result with less effect on the tube, but still at the low end of the meter's accuracy.

With 19-cent opamps we can improve this considerably.

There are a LOT of implementation details to work through. Where is this 250V DC coming from? If we have a 1950s bench-supply we are done, though these tend to be awkward and also in-use for other studies. For small tubes it may be cheap to use 120V:6V transformers, one backward, to get 6V AC for heater and 330V DC which can be adjusted down to 250V DC. For larger tubes we would probably grab a Champ/Deluxe/EpiJr PT, which can supply 250+V at 100+mA for long enough to test tubes. Any of these will need a solid voltage-dropper, probably more solid than say a 100K 2W pot. Today we would use something like a voltage-dropper used to power-reduce guitar amplifiers, a MOSFET+pot affair. No great regulation is needed because we WILL have a volt-meter handy and can check the voltage just before making a reading.

If we are testing BIG tubes we may need more than 10V grid bias. If we add opamps we are inclined to ask for a bi-polar supply in the +/-7V to +/-18V range. So several supplies to figure-out with as few PTs as possible.

As there are at least 5 readings to make, we must trade-off the cost/convenience of 5 meters against 1 meter and a switch. If we don't want to switch meter ranges then we must do voltage scaling and AC-DC conversions among the switching.

Offline SoundmasterG

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1203
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2015, 12:11:33 am »
Yah it was pretty convoluted as far as projects are concerned, but I got the teacher to approve it (mostly because he didn't know anything about vacuum tubes) and it gave me an excuse to mess around with tubes in an otherwise boring and aggravating subject such as anything using assembly language.


I was trying to take advantage of the voltage that is already at the back of the meter on the B & K and just use the Dragon board and the assembly language to sample that, and adjust it to read out a valid mho/Siemens number. Each tube type, and each tube in general gives a different voltage range at the back of the meter, and this is controlled largely by the sensitivity pot on the B & K, so I figured if I could find out a correct multiplier to use with the other stuff that I could get it to work and give me something useful. In practice the assembly language tripped me up as I figured it would....I ended up with something that sort of worked and I could demonstrate it functioning....I got a B+ on it so I was fine with that.


I still would like to get a reading that was more 'correct' instead of the arbitrary reading that the B & K gives, but I don't have the time and its a low importance project anyway. The B & K was based on some other successful tube testers such as the Hickoks I think, and if they got useful mho/Siemen numbers with the Hickok then the B & K should be able to also. I don't have time to mess around with it though these days....have 5 years of stuff I set aside like car and house maintenance to get caught up on. :)


The stuff you presented sounds interesting though PRR. I'll take a longer read through it and see if I might be able to put some of it to use one of these days. Thanks for taking the time to type it all out.

Greg

Offline shooter

  • Level 5
  • *******
  • Posts: 11018
  • Karma Loves haters
Hoffman Amps Forum image
Re: Tube Testor thread
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2015, 08:32:49 am »
Quote
....I got a B+ on it
  :l2:

My favorite grade
Went Class C for efficiency

 


Choose a link from the
Hoffman Amplifiers parts catalog
Mobile Device
Catalog Link
Yard Sale
Discontinued
Misc. Hardware
What's New Board Building
 Parts
Amp trim
Handles
Lamps
Diodes
Hoffman Turret
 Boards
Channel
Switching
Resistors Fender Eyelet
 Boards
Screws/Nuts
Washers
Jacks/Plugs
Connectors
Misc Eyelet
Boards
Tools
Capacitors Custom Boards
Tubes
Valves
Pots
Knobs
Fuses/Cords Chassis
Tube
Sockets
Switches Wire
Cable


Handy Links
Tube Amp Library
Tube Amp
Schematics library
Design a custom Eyelet or
Turret Board
DIY Layout Creator
File analyzer program
DIY Layout Creator
File library
Transformer Wiring
Diagrams
Hoffmanamps
Facebook page
Hoffman Amplifiers
Discount Program


password