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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: Tinning copper bus wire  (Read 17638 times)

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Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2017, 12:22:32 pm »
I also at the age of 16 had an interesting run in with a very large fronted goose (I don't recall if it was a gander or a female) and he bit hard! what a turd :) they also have teeth inside the bill, don't be led to thinking otherwise, it left some nice scratches on my arm in several places.  (maybe not 'teeth' per se, but sharp pointy parts inside the mouth).

~Phil
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Offline John

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2017, 01:57:46 pm »
My first encounter with a nasty gander was fun, since I had a #14 aluminum scoop shovel in my hands at the time. It was like playing tee ball.


He stayed under the corn crib where he belonged next time I visited.   :icon_biggrin:
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Offline bnwitt

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2017, 02:22:04 pm »
You big bad man you. :l2:
Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline bnwitt

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2017, 03:40:08 pm »
Just completed a reread of Grounding in Merlins book, but it is online as well.  He directly states:
 15.12: Miscellaneous Ground Connections....

What book is that Ed?  I've got his "Designing Tube Preamps for Guitar and Bass" book and he explains "the earth bond" in Chapter 12 "Notes on Contruction"
Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline sluckey

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2017, 04:11:56 pm »
My memory is not too good with some details but I remember for my 12th birthday I got a Marlin model 39A lever action .22 cal rifle. Still have it. But I cannot remember what became of Uncle Fred's gander! Funny thing about selective memory. :wink:
A schematic, layout, and hi-rez pics are very useful for troubleshooting your amp. Don't wait to be asked. JUST DO IT!

Offline PRR

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2017, 04:13:17 pm »
> the building main AC earth ground doesn't meet code. :l2:

The point is that our amp chassis should connect back to the power company "neutral", so stray power current through chassis will flow well enough to pop a fuse. This only relies on chassis-wire and wire-wire connections. Ideally these will all be <0.1r. But at least 6 connections from amp to meter-box. Any one screw-up makes bad bonding.

Whether that power company neutral really connects to dirt is another issue. As you say, it is usually a poor connection, >25 Ohms. Note that 125V in 25r is 5 Amps which will NOT pop your cellar fusebox! The reasons for dirt-bonding are many and complex. GOOD dirt-bonds are (as you know) expensive. The present practice seems to be "mostly OK" based on a century of experience. We do have troubles. It is not clear that more (or less!) dirt-bonding would be better.

> seldom pass the NEC 250.53 second electrode requirement of 25 ohms or less.

I tested one rod and got numbers like 60 to 120 Ohms, in a damp month. I have 5(!) similar rods parallel. So I barely have <25r in a damp month. At the moment we are in drought and I can imagine these rods in dry sand over rock are hundreds of Ohms combined.

Note that the resistance of the body can be 1,000-100,000+ Ohms depending on sweat/wet and path. So a >25r or even 500r rod resistance is probably "low" compared to you.

If we imagine the Extremes: if the dirt were good glass, dirt-rod resistance would be infinite however you could not get a shock and would not have large current in a lightning-stroke. If the dirt were metal, we'd have near-Zero rod resistance and near-Zero induced voltage for any current. But all real installations are in-between, with many variations of rods, exposure, and victims, so it is real hard to find any all-around optimum.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 04:18:17 pm by PRR »

Offline bnwitt

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2017, 04:36:34 pm »
PRR,
You are right on.  Out here we mostly deal with granite.  Very hard to drive a rod 8' into granite.  I have a gut feeling many existing rods are not really 8' into earth out here :wink:.  That being said, we have a lot of UFER grounding in the newer homes and they don't pass resistance testing either.  Most of the AHJ's want to see 25 ohms or less if you test or they will just allow the installation of a second rod 6' from the existing ground point to pass inspection and even with that they don't pass but the inspectors don't ask.  Your point about a breaker not tripping during a short is valid.  I've seen this happen many times with burnt wires or connections breaking the circuit instead.  Heck the old FPE load centers would let a house burn to the ground without a trip.  It makes one realize that the on board fuse sizing for each amp is pretty important for safety.
Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline John

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2017, 08:37:22 pm »
You big bad man you. :l2:


I'm just glad I had that shovel!
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Offline bnwitt

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2017, 10:37:22 pm »
My memory is not too good with some details but I remember for my 12th birthday I got a Marlin model 39A lever action .22 cal rifle. Still have it. But I cannot remember what became of Uncle Fred's gander! Funny thing about selective memory. :wink:

Steve,
You and I were on similar tracks.  My first weapon was a Marlin model 60 and I still have it.  Many a squirrel regretted my possession of it.
Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline PRR

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2017, 11:22:23 pm »
You know that if you hit rock before 8 feet, you can drive at 45 degree angle or in a specified trench. (The house I am working on has two rods but at 30 degree angle; both licensed electricians and the power company passed it.)

NEC wants 25r, but if two rods (and other available grounds) won't do that, you pass just for trying.

This recognizes the "glass dirt" (or granite) case can not be well earth-bonded at reasonable cost, AND is less likely to be a problem than wet salty soil.

FWIW: in addition to my five sand-rods, and 500' of #2 to the street which may have grounds at every pole, I have a guy wire from feeder neutral down to a stake with 10 feet of excess guy laying in a ditch which tends to stay damp. Far from ideal, but a rest-stop for surges coming in. Galvanized guy wire is not Approved for the purpose, it is rotting away in the ditch, but it will out-live me.

Offline Ed_Chambley

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2017, 05:53:56 am »
Just completed a reread of Grounding in Merlins book, but it is online as well.  He directly states:
 15.12: Miscellaneous Ground Connections....

What book is that Ed?  I've got his "Designing Tube Preamps for Guitar and Bass" book and he explains "the earth bond" in Chapter 12 "Notes on Contruction"
is
Check here
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/Grounding.html
If it is also on his website I will reference that since everyone does not have his book. It is in the preamp book just past the modified buss.


See, what is said about never using a Transformer bolt is B'S unless you feel you know better than he. I have respect for his contributions to the tube community. I also favor a lot of his ideas, especially using cap voltages within reason.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 06:03:05 am by Ed_Chambley »

Offline bnwitt

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2017, 08:35:10 am »
Thanks Ed.  That's chapter 12 in the preamp book.
Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline bnwitt

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2017, 08:36:07 am »
NEC wants 25r, but if two rods (and other available grounds) won't do that, you pass just for trying.

Woo hoo!  Everyone gets a trophy! :laugh:
Guides on your quest for tone.
 Oh yeah, and I'm usually just kidding so don't take me too seriously.

Offline drgonzonm

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2017, 08:51:09 pm »
You know that if you hit rock before 8 feet, you can drive at 45 degree angle or in a specified trench. (The house I am working on has two rods but at 30 degree angle; both licensed electricians and the power company passed it.)

NEC wants 25r, but if two rods (and other available grounds) won't do that, you pass just for trying.

This recognizes the "glass dirt" (or granite) case can not be well earth-bonded at reasonable cost, AND is less likely to be a problem than wet salty soil.

FWIW: in addition to my five sand-rods, and 500' of #2 to the street which may have grounds at every pole, I have a guy wire from feeder neutral down to a stake with 10 feet of excess guy laying in a ditch which tends to stay damp. Far from ideal, but a rest-stop for surges coming in. Galvanized guy wire is not Approved for the purpose, it is rotting away in the ditch, but it will out-live me.
Can't always count on the power poles ground.  One day just for fun, I noticed 6 poles in a row with missing grounds.   After seeing St. Elmos fire where 12 power poles had those brilliant blue balls descending, during a hurricane in Florida, those grounds are important. 
At plant I worked at in central Florida, the electrical crew salted the ground on a 10 rod grids just to get the ohmage down.  A quick lightning strike could destroy $20,000 of control equipment in seconds.  MOV protection helped protect electronics. 

Offline PRR

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2017, 12:43:19 am »
> Can't always count on the power poles ground.

I know. Just today I checked at a house I am working on. As of 3:30pm, the two closest poles had apparently valid ground rods. However with today's copper prices, they could have been gone by 4:00pm. So I was glad to know that house has two dirt-rods where scum won't find them to steal. Even at 30 deg slant, it is something.

Oh, for more fun, there is a High Voltage transmission line running adjacent to that place. If 115KV falls on us, no dirt-rod is gonna save us.

Offline kagliostro

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2017, 07:59:24 am »
Don't worry PRR, you can "dress" the house like this



and you like the guy on this movie

! No longer available

 :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:

Franco
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 08:05:07 am by kagliostro »
The world is a nice place if there is health and there are friends

Offline ManisMan

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Offline pompeiisneaks

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Re: Tinning copper bus wire
« Reply #67 on: September 24, 2017, 07:50:52 pm »
Doug prefers you don't post to stores outside that sell things he already sells.  His link:

http://hoffmanamps.com/MyStore/perlshop.cgi?action=template&thispage=WireCable&ORDER_ID=703528930  buss wire is there.

~Phil
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tUber Nerd =|D

 


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