5e3 Build log

[Champ_49]

Don't have to try it. It's pure nonsense. Kinda like "The leads are not straight but bent at two places to allow slight relief when components expand and contract due to heat." or your low gain/sustain PEC pots. Sorry buddy. I ain't buying any of it. I spoke up hoping to prevent anyone else reading this from believing it.

Thanks for this, Sluckey. A bit abrupt in the messaging, but it's the kind of information that should be recorded for the benefit of other new, future builders. This kind of nonesense gets repeated over and over and becomes gospel if not challenged.

Sorry. A bit "abrupt" in my messaging as well. It makes no difference to me. But unless you have tried it then maybe you can say its nonsense.  I still stand by what i observed. Also i said it before and i will say it again but a fact was not stated. Merely an observation. What I observed is what I observed. It was not stated as fact. It was in fact what i observed. You can say its bs for pointing it out but it will maybe help future builders as well to properly diagnose an anomoly instead of just brushing it aside and calling it nonsense. Your way of just accepting what someone said as nonsense is ignorant. Unless someone proves it otherwise which i would be happy to know i still stand by what i OBSERVED.  It is an anomoly and that is why i was hoping someone could try it and see. Unfortunately it sounds like everyone has ganged up on one observation i made and somehow  it turned into some kind of witch hunt. Which is unfortunately sad.

About the leads. Its in the Nasa documents.  Read the whole post before you just go around spouting your ignorance.

Sluckey and I settled this awhile ago. We agreed to disagree on some points and the explanation given to me was sufficient and well explained. As for you and the other guy(s)..nothing.  Just ignorance.

Hopefully i can post this so others can stand up against witch hunters like you and the other guy(s). Just for making an observation shouldn't be hard for people. Or.. maybe no one will want to state an observation for fear of being ridiculed. So.. what kind of forum does that make? An unreliable and biased one which is not helpful. 

I wont waste anymore of my time responding to messages like yours and am posting this for all others who made this into a witch hunt instead of trying to diagnose or try to see if what i observed could be replicated not. You and the others who called me bs didn't.. so..you have nothing to add but ignorance and accepting whatever else someone says. Which is..  ironic. Aren't you not challenging the challenge? You are in fact doing the exact same thing by just accepting someone elses' opinion instead of giving the observation i made a chance. Anyways. That's enough.  I am working on my build and i want to enjoy it and not waste any more of my time arguing with biased ignorance.

.

[sluckey]

Quote from: sluckey on August 03, 2020, 09:09:09 pm

Probably not a good idea to quote me on your first post!   

[bmccowan]

Hey Champ,
You and I have had some friendly exchanges so I mean this with the most productive of intentions.
I observe no witch hunts. I only observe that when you used the phrase "they in fact reduce gain on my higher gain amps" people (me included) figured you were suggesting that what you observed could be relied upon as fact. Its a reasonable conclusion.
Calling people ignorant gets you nowhere positive.
Regards to all.

[Champ_49]

Hey Champ,
You and I have had some friendly exchanges so I mean this with the most productive of intentions.
I observe no witch hunts. I only observe that when you used the phrase "they in fact reduce gain on my higher gain amps" people (me included) figured you were suggesting that what you observed could be relied upon as fact. Its a reasonable conclusion.
Calling people ignorant gets you nowhere positive.
Regards to all.

Your quote by marie is great. It could apply for both ways.  Whatever the case I did clear it up in my previous posts. And we will have to agree to disagree on that as well which is fine. It IS ignorant to me. And not a kind way to talk about people's observations. Now.. the way I interpret those kinds of comments? Its like accusing me that am lying or intentionally trying to spread misinformation. Now why would someone want to do that. As you know i came here to post about my build (which is going great btw).. not to sabotage the forum.  To be honest. I would like to get off this forum now. And the rest of my build  posts will be recorded elsewhere on my personal files. This has not become a very enjoyable forum for me which is why i came on. But it doesnt matter to me really.

McCowen you really like forums. That's great. And..there a alot of people i know who hate forums and now I know why.. because one there is alot of bs. including how my comments were handled with a witch hunt mentality. Only wanted to share what i observed so maybe i could get a friendly discussion on it. Two, yup you guesed it..bs..like how sozo caps make your amp sound magical (now i will probably get some more hate comments from that one but i dont care), Mercury trannys are far superior than any other tranny.. the list goes on.  There are too many opinions where someone's ego gets hurt and too many toes get stepped on. Forums are like walking on egg shells for me now.  Yeah you could learn a few things here and there but I prefer to learn elsewhere. And I learned actual and more useful info from books like from Merlin Blencowe or Kevin O'conner (which I am still reading and still learning) than from here anyways. Hoffman's stuff is also very useful as his 5E3 layout shows a properly grounded circuit and I am using it on this build as well as it coincides with what I had in mind.

 Tbh most were alot of negative comments. Only a handful of people liked my post on the build and i'd like to thank them for putting a thumbs up
Or a "looking good" comment or some useful tips on how to get solder to flow on better etc... I dont expect that but I really do appreciate it and thank you. What I DON'T appreciate are people calling me bullshit and ridiculing me instead of discussing an OBSERVATION in a mature way. And just because i used one word "fact" you use that against me. You all know or knew what my context was. An observation.  I did not say all PEC pots reduce "gain". You should not use that against me. I said they reduced it on my build compared to the alphas.  I mean how the heck are we supposed to word things around here in case someone gets offended.

Now for future new comers. Posts like this should be a discussion. Not ridiculed and talked to in an accusatory tone. And calling people bullshit.

[shooter]

maybe chalk it up to the bug and we all smoke a fat one, or a frosty beer 

My overlord in the State house try's like crazy to tick me off EVERY day, I just ignore Her and live MY life, like water on a duck 

keep building, keep asking questions, and mostly, enjoy the process

[Champ_49]

maybe chalk it up to the bug and we all smoke a fat one, or a frosty beer 

My overlord in the State house try's like crazy to tick me off EVERY day, I just ignore Her and live MY life, like water on a duck 

keep building, keep asking questions, and mostly, enjoy the process

Thanks Shooter. You are one of the positive ones out there. And a bit of comic relief from my last rant mixed with encouragement is always good.  but in all honesty i think i will enjoy my build way more away from this forum.

[sluckey]

And calling people bullshit

No one has called anyone bullshit. What you said has been called bullshit. You made a statement that even you said made no sense and some very savvy electronic people have called you on it. It's not up to the world to disprove your statement. It's up to you to prove it. Back it up with some tangible facts, something believable in the electronics world. Knowledgeable people will never believe that statement without some proof. Just saying you observed this is not going to convince anyone with a good electronics background. Some will speak up. A lot more will just remain quiet for a variety of reasons.

[Champ_49]

Anyways. Now I have to clarify it is a qualitative observation.  Thought observation implied that but i guess not. You are not calling anyone out unless you know factually its bullshit.  But you don't because you and other naysayers have not even tried it which i have. So calling me out doesn't do anything. Not expecting someone to do it for me. What i mean to say is if YOU want to call me out then prove it. Honestly i dont know how to prove a qualitative observation quantitavely,  maybe im not as "tech saavy" as you guys. I dunno.

Read the post you posted saying "here is all the proof you need". There is someone else who said they could have noticed that. Its not just me.

Anyways. I am out of here.  Good knowing you guys.

[sluckey]

Bye

[Medley]

Quote from: sluckey on August 03, 2020, 09:09:09 pm

Probably not a good idea to quote me on your first post!   

Yes, I realize that, although it wasn't my first post. I had jumped in the conversation elsewhere on the forum about center taps vs "virtual" center taps, asking whether my having done both in my first build would cause problems. I am not sure why my involvement in this thread showed up as my first post.

At any rate, my comment -and especially my referring to some of Champ's build choices as nonesense- certainly don't create a good first impression. There is some background to my comment, but my selection of words could have been better.

*Apologies to you, Champ 49*

That said, while I'm new to amp building, I'm by no means new to electronics and internet forums. One of my long-standing personal gripes about the dynamics of special-interest forums is how certain dogmas (or "myths" as Adam Savage might call them) get asserted over and over and over and over and....you get the idea....without an apparent appetite or openness to the clinical physics that drive the subject at hand. (Don't get me started about tone caps!) When the engineers start talking scientific facts, invariably the advocates of a certain dogma pull out the good old, "well just because YOU can't hear the difference..." saw.

At any rate, I acknowledge being "triggered" by these kinds of threads and I should just restrain myself. Mea Culpa.

Best wishes on your 5E3 build, Champ. You obviously are a person who pays a great deal of attention to detail and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Build on.

[sluckey]

Yes, I realize that, although it wasn't my first post. I had jumped in the conversation elsewhere on the forum about center taps vs "virtual" center taps, asking whether my having done both in my first build would cause problems. I am not sure why my involvement in this thread showed up as my first post.

I remember that thread. And I remember us discussing it. But not on this board. That conversation took place over at the AMP Garage...

     https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33457&start=15#p415292

[Medley]

Yes, I realize that, although it wasn't my first post. I had jumped in the conversation elsewhere on the forum about center taps vs "virtual" center taps, asking whether my having done both in my first build would cause problems. I am not sure why my involvement in this thread showed up as my first post.

I remember that thread. And I remember us discussing it. But not on this board. That conversation took place over at the AMP Garage...

     https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33457&start=15#p415292

That explains that; thanks for setting the record straight. What can I say? I'm 61 :-)

[Champ_49]

At any rate, my comment -and especially my referring to some of Champ's build choices as nonesense- certainly don't create a good first impression. There is some background to my comment, but my selection of words could have been better.

*Apologies to you, Champ 49*

That said, while I'm new to amp building, I'm by no means new to electronics and internet forums. One of my long-standing personal gripes about the dynamics of special-interest forums is how certain dogmas (or "myths" as Adam Savage might call them) get asserted over and over and over and over and....you get the idea....without an apparent appetite or openness to the clinical physics that drive the subject at hand. (Don't get me started about tone caps!) When the engineers start talking scientific facts, invariably the advocates of a certain dogma pull out the good old, "well just because YOU can't hear the difference..." saw.

At any rate, I acknowledge being "triggered" by these kinds of threads and I should just restrain myself. Mea Culpa.

Best wishes on your 5E3 build, Champ. You obviously are a person who pays a great deal of attention to detail and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Build on.
[/quote]

Medley i do appreciate your follow up. I am aware of these dogmas and I don't like them as well as they ARE misleading repeated over again they start to get credit for everything and not what it is really worth. About these pots they were not intended to mislead or create a myth about them. I was just trying to bring it up as someone might have had that issue as well and wanted to know if i was going crazy or they really did what they did. And if so maybe i missed something. The best I could have done to prove this was make a video of it side by side. as I am not so good with quantitative data to prove something.  Although i have built several amps I am still relatively new to this and still learning as I go. I am not electronically as well versed as some here so i hope you all understand. What i do know from limited experience is that in theory it should work but in practice it can come out as something different than what you expected.  The pots have a  taper both logarithmic. From what i am aware of they are both carbon tracks. Only one is built like a tank and sealed so it boggled my mind why I was hearing something different when they both had the same resistance. Anyways i am really done talking about that as I brought it up too much. I am sick of it and everyone is probably sick of hearing it too.

But to let you know i am fully aware of these myths people create about certain products and I don't like them as well.

Usually not negative but about how outstanding they are and how they  "hear" the difference and it "sounds more open" etc..i was not promoting anything i was trying to make sense out of what i observed. please don't misunderstand me and place me in the same category as those people who spread that kind of myth as I myself am totally against that and ironically i was "chosen". Comments like previous ones should really be called on the real culprits. Which i am not. I have never seen anyone call out people on forums who just say Mercury trannys are just far superior with no base. They dont even admit that they know nothing about them. I admitted and stated that it did not make sense. These people don't. Just felt the wrong person was used as a scape goat and picked on. I felt like i was framed. And like you guys needed someone, anyone to pay for someone elses' misdeeds because you need to tell the state you caught someone, which was unfortunately me. So I got the sentence while the real thief was set free. if you really want to make a difference call THEM out on the forums now. There is so much shit out there. Maybe because they are assholes no one wants to or have the guts to call them out. I dunno. Maybe because i am not an asshole and some people thought it was easier. I dunno. But i stood up anyhow so there ya go.

Me bending the leads was done because it was suggested on Robinettes site and it made sense to me on a scientific sense. Although maybe not intended for thermal stresses as sluckey stated. But it still makes sense to me that they were bent for thermal stresses..but that's my opinion then. But it shouldn't matter since all the people who built without bending leads dont have issues with their amp including me. But I did it anyways for this build.

Anyways Medley I appreciate your follow up.

[HotBluePlates]

... trying to make sense out of what i observed. ... it made sense to me on a scientific sense.

The problem is when unexplained observations and otherwise-sound logic mix to take things out of proportion, then become "Lore."  Kinda like when I posted recently about tube matching, as people don't know how close is "close enough" (5mA apart? 1mA? 0.1mA?) and are told technical reasons "matched is better."

    - Newer builders read advice on "best practices" in various places, but have no idea whether any are really that important to follow.

    - People will get into heated arguments defending some "best practice" because so-and-so said...  Meanwhile others will build amps without following the best practice, and get great results.

FWIW, I've used PEC pots in builds and they performed like any other pot; I don't know what the deal is with that whole discussion.

As for the issue of component leads ("To bend? Or not to bend? That is the question..."  ), it seems reasonable to think it's an issue of mechanical strain relief.  If you add it to your build, more power to you.  I personally won't bother with the extra effort (but then, I don't use silicone glue to hold capacitors in place either).  I'm sure the extra care over the leads isn't hurting anything, but I also have a dozen 50-60 year old amps that survived without it so  .

I know I've been guilty of voicing my disagreement too aggressively at times, and it did me no favors.  I suspect that's the real issue here.

[Champ_49]

... trying to make sense out of what i observed. ... it made sense to me on a scientific sense.

The problem is when unexplained observations and otherwise-sound logic mix to take things out of proportion, then become "Lore."  Kinda like when I posted recently about tube matching, as people don't know how close is "close enough" (5mA apart? 1mA? 0.1mA?) and are told technical reasons "matched is better."

    - Newer builders read advice on "best practices" in various places, but have no idea whether any are really that important to follow.

    - People will get into heated arguments defending some "best practice" because so-and-so said...  Meanwhile others will build amps without following the best practice, and get great results.

FWIW, I've used PEC pots in builds and they performed like any other pot; I don't know what the deal is with that whole discussion.

As for the issue of component leads ("To bend? Or not to bend? That is the question..."  ), it seems reasonable to think it's an issue of mechanical strain relief.  If you add it to your build, more power to you.  I personally won't bother with the extra effort (but then, I don't use silicone glue to hold capacitors in place either).  I'm sure the extra care over the leads isn't hurting anything, but I also have a dozen 50-60 year old amps that survived without it so  .

I know I've been guilty of voicing my disagreement too aggressively at times, and it did me no favors.  I suspect that's the real issue here.

For leads that is exactly the point. Some people like myself like to build with that bit extra which doesn't hurt.  In engineering we account for a margin of error. Such as highways are designed for a speed limit over of what is actually posted. Anyways.. to each their own it all comes down to.. it's YOUR amp. Well your 50-60 year amps survived so now I can rest assured all my other builds won't have any future issues  . And it will save me time on my next builds.  But yeah, sometimes "relatively" newer builders like myself read up on sites like Robinettes site and think "maybe I HAVE to do this". I did it grudginly to be honest. And i hated bending those leads. Its a pain really .

Observations turning to lore is an issue yes i agree. But.. the other extreme is being overly vigilante in calling out as in this case the issue with the pots as some things can and will be overlooked. In my case i used pec for my last build and it turned out wonderfully.  Now used on the jcm800 preamp control pot it turned out differently. Kick me out for saying that. I don't care. Really. So.. depended on the build and type of amp in my case.  Cleaner amps like the 5e3 no difference.
I am guessing someone will notice this..eventually.

As i mentioned theory is a starting point. But in the real world theory can only be applied and hoped to work as close to what was hypothesised and may not turn out as hypothesised.