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Hoffman Amps Forum image Author Topic: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors  (Read 17987 times)

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Offline plexi50

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New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« on: September 13, 2010, 07:02:31 pm »
Is it me or has anyone else noticed the dead and lifeless tone these new white M150's have

Maybe i am loosing my hearing but i dont think it's that bad just yet

They sound thin and very sterile to me compared to the yellow M150's

There are much smaller as well in size

Offline tubesornothing

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2010, 07:09:54 pm »
they are crap.  the yellow's were way better.

 :wink:

Offline sluckey

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2010, 07:23:54 pm »
Yep. All the color is gone. Really sad. Tell everyone you know. I've got a bucketful of yellows just waiting to go on eBay.
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Offline plexi50

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2010, 07:35:54 pm »
ah!  Good to hear some agreement on these caps.  I loved the old yellow ones. I may get a bunch from you Steve

Sozo's are good but to be honest i still prefer the old Mallorys. From the start the Mallorys are good. Once they break in there great!

And to think i havent used a que tip this month.  :grin:

Offline Tiny_Daddy

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2010, 08:43:08 pm »
Used to be the polypropylene caps were white. Now they are all white?

Offline Fresh_Start

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 11:35:49 pm »
Used to be the polypropylene caps were white. Now they are all white?

AFAIK the polyester Mallory 150s still are yellow.

Just went through a fairly large order and some "Mallory 150" caps are yellow and others are white.  The white ones appear to be a little bit thinner but longer than the corresponding yellow ones (i.e. same voltage & capacitance ratings).  No apparent pattern in that I ordered some 400 volt and some 630 volt.  Some say "Taiwan" and others say "China", both colors.  There was an outlier - think it was .0015uf - which was yellow, but long & thin.  Plus the writing was unlike any Mallory I'd ever seen before.

The white ones are different from the yellow ones in terms of appearance and dimensions.

If this new build sounds like crap, I'll know why! :wink:

Cheers,

Chip
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Offline navdave

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 11:38:15 pm »
I like the CDE poly caps they look just like the Xicon ones maybe made in China to?
Aint played with any white M150's yet didn't even know they changed the color.
So a new 400v .022uf cap that's is white is smaller than an old yellow one?
I thought the yellow ones had a very small footprint already cant believe they made em smaller.

Offline The_Gaz

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 01:49:24 am »
Built identical amps with both, and A/b'd... they sound the same. and *gasp* one uses stranded wire, and one solid core!  :wink:

Offline bigdaddy

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2010, 03:13:05 am »
Did you ever even consider some people can hear the difference in things and YOU cannot?

Did anybody ever consider that when a superior guitar player uses an amp he does not only hear it but feels it, in terms of how it responds to his touch and playing? And that goes for any other world class player. Has anybody ever talked to a world class violinist about violins and their sound/tone, they are much worse then any guitar player as far as being picky and hearing things that most people can't.

That just because YOU do not hear something therefore it does not exist and anybody who does hear it is mistaken.

I've gone to outdoor concerts and knew exactly what power amps they were using. Any professional live sound tech or engineer can tell the difference immediately between power amps. A lot of it is feel before they actually lock on to a sound. Old Crown power amps can be felt in their lows that others cannot. You can feel a those older Crown power amps.

Just, in my opinion something to consider when people call certain things snake oil or laughs because they cannot hear the difference that others do. It's not only about hearing when it comes to playing an instrument, it's about feel and response. Yes the Hi-Fi cork sniffers are way out there and totally full of it, but some things are legitimate and some people can hear/feel things others cannot. Like perfect pitch, some people are born with it, some people develop it and some people are so called tone deaf. Maybe some amp builders unfortunately are tone deaf too, just saying. Maybe that's possible....

Offline jojokeo

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2010, 02:36:51 pm »
I've built several amps using strictly the white caps (because I like to keep things matching for certain builds) and have mixed them together in others w/ both color types. I haven't noticed any discernable sonic differences and I never gave it much if any thought to this color factor for making much if any. I mainly thought the manufacturer simply wanted to make this change for some reason or that maybe they couldn't get the original film/paper in time for production or to save money maybe? I do know that I like the yellow look much better and was dissapointed w/ the white color (err, absense of color) change.  :smiley:

« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 04:02:10 pm by jojokeo »
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Offline simonallaway

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2010, 02:50:22 pm »
C'mon guys, there's no point in arguing about subjective opinion.

If I had 5c for every time someone said "which caps sound best?", and a storm ensues, I'd have enough cash to buy lots of [insert your favourite capacitor brand]. And I've only been reading this forum  for approx. 6 months.

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Offline plexi50

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2010, 03:46:22 pm »
There is no entertainment value here. There are no sides to take. All opinions are revelant weather they are right or wrong as long as it is about the thread itself. Thats what makes this a great place to learn from

Only the topic :grin: subject of interest is the thread itself
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 03:50:34 pm by plexi50 »

Offline FYL

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2010, 03:59:14 pm »
Quote
Is it me or has anyone else noticed the dead and lifeless tone these new white M150's have

Just did a DBT between three broadly similar 100n caps : old Mallory 150 (yellow), new Mallory 150 (white) and Vishay Roederstein MKT 1813. No subjective difference between the three caps, zero, zilch, nada. I'll do some measurements if time permits, but I'm pretty sure that the results will be the same (or very nearly so).


Offline plexi50

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2010, 04:05:24 pm »
What i hear is a lack of fullness or nice definition,depth. Hard to explain. Boaring is the best way i can describe it. And maybe i just got some bad ones but i had like 25 of them and they were lifeless to me. Maybe this is a great case of psychadelic yellow and white voodoo. No that would be purple and orange /

Offline jojokeo

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 04:19:01 pm »
What i hear is a lack of fullness or nice definition,depth. Hard to explain. Boaring is the best way i can describe it. And maybe i just got some bad ones but i had like 25 of them and they were lifeless to me. Maybe this is a great case of psychadelic yellow and white voodoo. No that would be purple and orange /

I know this may be a PITA but do you have the ability (or desire) to change only the necessary caps in the same amp and do a recording of both types w/ the same settings to directly compare the two? This way there's no differences in tubes, speakers, layouts, guitars, or anything else? Or maybe you've done it already? Then again, we have someone that's already done that weigh in too.
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Offline phsyconoodler

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2010, 04:40:01 pm »
Did someone say phsyco?
  That's me! I can hear differences in many brands of caps and it drives lots of people crazy when I say it makes a difference.
 I am all about weeding out 'dead and lifeless' from a coupling cap.
   However,I recently installed a set of what I THOUGHT should be dead and lifeless caps in an Overdrive Rocket build and the results were anything but 'dead and lifeless'. I used NTE mylar caps.
   The amp sounds excellent. But it does not have that mid-volume sweetness that they do when using Russian paper-in oils or Mojo Dijons.
At gig volumes and louder it sounds great.That may be the key here.I'm not sitting in front of the amp listening.
   
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Offline bigdaddy

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2010, 05:07:32 pm »
It is a subjective opinion based on the individual. Everybody hears or doesn't hear something because no two people are alike.

It's a fact that teenagers can hear frequencies older adults cannot. So your hearing changes as you grow older. How does that effect your ability to hear minute differences or maybe by losing some hearing you get better at hearing minute differences because of the lack of trash behind everything. Nobody knows.

That's why when the subject of caps comes up it starts a whole thing every time. Because IMO there are those who do not hear a difference, those who think they hear a difference and those who know there IS a difference. Notice I say is a difference......the first thing I hear is not really heard but felt in the way my fingers work the fretboard and how the amp responds to it.

Some people just do not hear it........no put down, that's just the way it is. Not everybody is blessed with certain talents, that's why Michael Jordan was MJ and nobody was ever better nor probably will be. For guitar players there was only one Hendrix and one Clapton and so on, you can name them on you fingers, the great ones of our time. So it's no big deal if you can or cannot hear it, but to say it doesn't exist even if all the test equipment say so too IMO is BS. If we only went by test equipment and not human thought and experience we would never have E=MC2.

Offline echuta13

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 05:27:09 pm »
I have a few of the new M150's but I don't have an opinion on them yet.   :angel

In regards to what you can and can't hear... well I think sometimes you can hear a change, sometimes you want to hear a change, and sometimes you "think" you can hear a change.

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 05:29:41 pm by echuta13 »
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Offline labb

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2010, 05:50:59 pm »
So if you do not like the "new" white Mallory 150's what would you use in their place if that is what you have been using?

Offline plexi50

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2010, 08:09:52 pm »
So if you do not like the "new" white Mallory 150's what would you use in their place if that is what you have been using?

Find some old Mallory M150's or Sozo's or Mojo's

I cant remember what member it was but a year or 2 ago they did an absolute testing of many brand name caps on a home made switchbox that switched between the various brands of capacitors

Some had a noticable difference and some were all the same. All i know is the white Mallory's i have will never be used in my stuff again



 

Offline jojokeo

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2010, 08:49:59 pm »
The thing about Mallorys' is that they are cost effective and still sound good and supposed to be the closest thing to NOS mustard caps? The other stuff like SoZo, et al is that they are pricey$$$.
Now, we're calling the 150 Mallorys' "yellow caps" and these are metal film/metalized polyester but there's also yellow metalized polypropelene - more expensive than the 150s but not too much. Maybe these would be the ones to go to or compare to?

Another thing thing I've read about is how the caps all have a beginning and an ending or outside foil position, except types like ceramic & silver mica. The reputed sound difference is said to be noticeable when paying attention to their orientational placement in this way. Maybe this could be or make the difference for some? Afterall, Aiken, Weber, & others write about this:

The proper way to connect the outside foil is to the low impedance side of the circuit, which, in the case of coupling caps, will normally be the plate of the previous stage. If it is a bypass cap to ground, connect the outside foil to the grounded side. If it is a bypass cap from a signal to B+, connect the outside foil to B+. The outside foil will act as a shield against electric field coupling into the capacitor, so you want it to have the lowest impedance return path to ground.
For AC signals, the power supply rail is effectively at ground potential, just as the ground rail is. This is why it makes a good point to use as a shield ground.  This concept is sometimes difficult  to understand, but if you think about how a capacitor works, it will become clear.  A capacitor has a capacitive reactance that calculated as follows:

Xc = 1/(2*Pi*f*C)
where: Xc is the capacitive reactance
           f = the frequency of the signal being passed through the capacitor
           C = the capacitance of the capacitor.

As you can see from the above equation, the frequency term is in the denominator, so as the frequency increases, the capacitive reactance decreases.  Since reactance is effectively a measure of the "AC resistance" of the capacitor, the capacitor will exhibit a very low resistance at higher frequencies, while looking like an open circuit for DC and frequencies low enough to make the capacitive reactance significant.  This means that the large electrolytic bypass capacitors in the power supply are effectively "short circuits" to AC signals above a certain very low frequency.  For all practical shielding purposes, connecting the outer foil to the power supply rail is just as good as connecting it to ground.  As a side note, electrolytic capacitors have an internal resistance that tends to rise with frequency, which can make the capacitor less than ideal as a bypass at higher frequencies.  For this reason, it is sometimes a good idea to bypass electrolytic capacitors with a smaller value foil or other type capacitor.
 
Proper orientation of the capacitors will make the amplifier much less susceptible to outside noise, including hum, interference from fluorescent lighting, and tendency towards oscillations or frequency-response peaks and dips due to unwanted feedback from nearby signals within the amplifier, which can affect the tone of the amplifier (and is the reason why some people claim the amp sounds different if the caps are oriented in the opposite way - if there is no accidental coupling, there will be no tonal difference, but there will still be a noise benefit gained from orienting the caps the correct way).
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

Offline Fresh_Start

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2010, 09:18:47 pm »
FWIW Randall Aiken says that polypropylene capacitors "are the best". 

Here is his tech essay on orienting the outside foil on capacitors: http://www.aikenamps.com/OutsideFoil.htm  While interesting, I don't think my builds are good enough yet to warrant applying an oscilloscope to each and every coupling cap. 

The next build will start with a mix of white & yellow polyester Mallory 150s.  That's what I've got in the bins.  Maybe I'll try Hoffman's polyproppylene Xicon caps once the circuit is sorted out.  Being a much darker color (or lack thereof), I'm betting that the Xicons will sound different.

Cheers,

Chip
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Offline plexi50

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2010, 10:32:15 pm »
FWIW Randall Aiken says that polypropylene capacitors "are the best".  

Here is his tech essay on orienting the outside foil on capacitors: http://www.aikenamps.com/OutsideFoil.htm  While interesting, I don't think my builds are good enough yet to warrant applying an oscilloscope to each and every coupling cap.  

The next build will start with a mix of white & yellow polyester Mallory 150s.  That's what I've got in the bins.  Maybe I'll try Hoffman's polyproppylene Xicon caps once the circuit is sorted out.  Being a much darker color (or lack thereof), I'm betting that the Xicons will sound different.

Cheers,

Chip

The Xicons actually sound very good to me. I have been using them in repairs unless the customer wants a specific cap. I have built a few other low wattage amplifiers using all Xicons. They sound great to me. I think i will make a Doc appointment and get my ears checked out just for GP/ Maybe i have a Xicon in there some where? The last Judus Priest concert in 2003 messed up my hearing for 3 days. Not good
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 10:34:35 pm by plexi50 »

Offline jojokeo

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2010, 01:48:29 am »
IIRC the outside foil is on the right side when reading the cap's printing info. and that side goes to the plate, ground, or B+ depending on it's place in the circuit. Atleast that's what I've done for a few years now. That keeps it simple to remember & I do it because I figure it can't hurt so why not?
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Offline Fresh_Start

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2010, 09:12:16 am »
IIRC the outside foil is on the right side when reading the cap's printing info. and that side goes to the plate, ground, or B+ depending on it's place in the circuit. Atleast that's what I've done for a few years now. That keeps it simple to remember & I do it because I figure it can't hurt so why not?

Ahhh, but are the Taiwanese/Chinese/Malaysians paying any attention to the foil orientation before they label the capacitors they're cranking out by the thousands?  I'll try Aiken's test on a few, but my guess is that the text orientation is random.

[My apologies if that comment seems xenophobic - all of the Mallory caps I have were made in one of those 3 countries]

Chip
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Offline jojokeo

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Re: New Mallory M150 White Capacitors
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2010, 04:41:24 pm »
Ahhh, but are the Taiwanese/Chinese/Malaysians

Chip

For some reason that got me thinking about having a spicy Mongolian beef bowl for tonight's dinner.  :grin:

I've been a little curious about this for a while now. If you do, please let us know, thanks.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism. To steal from many is research.

 


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