Tolex Glue?

[SLW]

I have seen the water-based contact cement that AES sells.  I have also seen it for sale in my local Lowes / Home Depot.  I assume they are the same thing.  Anybody used this stuff?

SLW

[stingray_65]

I've used vinyl flooring adhesive with very good results. (home depot $20/4gal bucket)

Fair amount of working time, plus non toxic.

The few drawbacks are you must be careful on how much you use (easy to put on WAY too much) or when doing intricate bends where you need heat to stretch it, the slow working time is annoying. has strong ammonia odor

My preference is 3M HiTack 90, but at $30 a spray can is steep unless you make a few cabs.

Just curious, is this your first time tolexing a cab?

Ray

[SLW]

Technically no.  It is not the first cab I have tolexed.  It is for all practical purposes.  17 years ago I built and tolexed a cab to go with a blond Tremolux head.  I was pleased with the results.  I haven't done it since.

SLW

[JN]

water based contact cement works great. Doesn't hold as strong as solvent based stuff, but put lots on, maybe a second coat as well, and it works out great.

[jjasilli]

Adhesives are one of the biggest banes of my existence.  I can't never get nothin to stick nohow!   

[G._Hoffman]

OK, now, bare with me here.  I am, in fact, serious.


Hot hide glue.


That's the thing to use.  I'll admit, when I tried it, I already had a glue pot, and I already had a batch of hide glue I was familiar with.  All of that helps.  But when I tried it, I very quickly fell in love with using it.  You spread the glue, get the Tolex in place, and then you iron it with a very low iron.  It works great, is easy to get rid of bubbles and lumps, and is quite easy to clean up.  You need a good electric glue pot, and you need to learn how much water to mix with your particular batch of glue, but as far as I'm concerned, it is the way to go!

Just my opinion.


Gabriel

[jjasilli]

G._Hoffman:  Hide glue has a good rep.  But I have custom hi-fi speaker cabs, and the veneer, applied by Zalytron, with hide glue is lifting.  Ironing doesn't help.  Crazy glue doesn't help.  I know veneer is not tolex.  Do you advise any surface prep for the wood before applying hide glue.

stingray_65:  I'm not getting 3M HiTack 90.  It foams-up when applied. like Gorilla Glue, and seems better suited to joints than to bonding flat surfaces.  Am I missing something?

OTOH, 3M 77 spray seems to give out over time.  Maybe the secret is to give the wood  a "dummy" first coat to seal the wood surface; then spray for real.  Haven't tried that yet, but it seems expensive.  Or maybe spray the wood black, or whatever color the tolex is, to seal the wood, and make any future tolex damage less obvious.  But once painted, adhesive choices may change.

[stingray_65]

G._Hoffman:  Hide glue has a good rep.  But I have custom hi-fi speaker cabs, and the veneer, applied by Zalytron, with hide glue is lifting.  Ironing doesn't help.  Crazy glue doesn't help.  I know veneer is not tolex.  Do you advise any surface prep for the wood before applying hide glue.

stingray_65:  I'm not getting 3M HiTack 90.  It foams-up when applied. like Gorilla Glue, and seems better suited to joints than to bonding flat surfaces.  Am I missing something?

OTOH, 3M 77 spray seems to give out over time.  Maybe the secret is to give the wood  a "dummy" first coat to seal the wood surface; then spray for real.  Haven't tried that yet, but it seems expensive.  Or maybe spray the wood black, or whatever color the tolex is, to seal the wood, and make any future tolex damage less obvious.  But once painted, adhesive choices may change.

HiTack sprays in a web like pattern. the trick is to go for about 70% coverage on the substrate (wood) and 60% on the laminate (tolex)
the foaming happens when you get too much on in one spot, I've always wound up with a bubble when that happens.

Also I've found the tolex, wood and spray need to be the same temperature or I have a greater instance of bubbling.

I made an awesome "J" roller (no Cheech and Chong reference) out of a 2 1/2" dia cold rolled steel rod. roll every single inch of the box 10 or 12 times. As I'm typing this I'm thinking a good rolling pin would be great too.

 

[SLW]

I have been to a website of a cab maker that uses hide glue.  I can't remember the name of the site right now.  Since I don't have the equipment or experience I will wait to try that on another project.  I will look at the vinyl flooring stuff and investigate it.  I am leaning toward the contact cement.  I have used a bit of the solvent based stuff for other applications in the past and was always pleased.  I will let you guys know what I decide and how it works out.

SLW

[G._Hoffman]

G._Hoffman:  Hide glue has a good rep.  But I have custom hi-fi speaker cabs, and the veneer, applied by Zalytron, with hide glue is lifting.  Ironing doesn't help.  Crazy glue doesn't help.  I know veneer is not tolex.  Do you advise any surface prep for the wood before applying hide glue.

Just basic sanding.

For your veneered cabs, if you can get at it, you can probably add a bit more hide glue, and then iron and clamp it down (use a caul).  One of the great things about hide glue is you can easily reactivate it by adding a bit of new glue.  

The most amusing thing about it is that it is nothing but unflavored jello.  In fact, if you are in a pinch, you can buy some Knox gelatin, though I wouldn't advise most of the time, as Knox is a higher strength - and therefore a shorter open time - form of gelatin than most hide glue.  Also, where Knox and Jello are usually made from cow bones and hooves, most hide glue in this country is made from cow hides.  It doesn't make any difference in the final product, but I wouldn't want to substitute my hide glue for Knox!!!!


Gabriel

[jjasilli]

Gabriel:  Thanks for the info.  I guess I'll just havee to try that!  Since the venner is already a problem I'd better go the glue pot route.  The veneer is pulling up at the edges, so I can get new hide glue in there.  The use of a caul is a great suggestion.

[G._Hoffman]

Gabriel:  Thanks for the info.  I guess I'll just havee to try that!  Since the venner is already a problem I'd better go the glue pot route.  The veneer is pulling up at the edges, so I can get new hide glue in there.  The use of a caul is a great suggestion.

The one really tricky thing with veneer is getting even clamping pressure. 

Clamp pressure spreads out at about a 45 degree angle, and you always want your clamps angle of pressure (so to speak) to overlap from both ends of the clamp.  So if you are going to get even pressure on a joint you need either enough material to allow the clamps time to spread, a huge number of clamps, or some thicker cauls.  Veneer, being so thin, exacerbates this problem.  A lot.  Which is why so many people who are doing veneer work use vacuum clamping; the pressure is always completely even. 

If you are going to be making hide glue (and we are only talking about freshly made hot hide glue - the stuff that comes in the bottle is good for nothing!), don't make it directly in your glue pot.  Use the glue pot like a double boiler, and make the glue in a canning jar that you put in the water in the glue pot.  We've got a variety of different squeeze bottles that we use for hide glue, but for Tolex and veneer all you need is a wide mouth jelly jar and a brush.  It may be slower than the more modern adhesives (for Tolex), but it is much more forgiving.  Also, when it dries, it dries harder than any modern glue except cyanoacrylate (which is no harder!)  This is really nice when you have to drill a hole that you forgot to drill, because if you have let it dry the Tolex won't twist as you drill.


Gabriel

[jjasilli]

The caul idea is a godsend.  After you mentioned it I googled & youtube'd some examples (since I didn't even know what a caul is!).  There's just a couple of inches of veener peeling up at the rear edges of the MDF cab. So I don't need a very wide caul; and I should have enough clamps.

I don't paln do do this often.  In that case one site suggested a crockpot might work.  I have a small one that my wife doesn't use.  I'll see if that can keep water at the right temperature which I think is 140 - 150 degrees F.  Can you recommend a gram strength - 192? 251?

If I can get this to work I guess I'll try it on my next tolex project.

It's amazing the talent & know-how on this Forum!

EDIT: found a source that seems good - recomends 192 for veneer:  http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/library/animal_glues.pdf

[G._Hoffman]

The caul idea is a godsend.  After you mentioned it I googled & youtube'd some examples (since I didn't even know what a caul is!).  There's just a couple of inches of veener peeling up at the rear edges of the MDF cab. So I don't need a very wide caul; and I should have enough clamps.

I don't paln do do this often.  In that case one site suggested a crockpot might work.  I have a small one that my wife doesn't use.  I'll see if that can keep water at the right temperature which I think is 140 - 150 degrees F.  Can you recommend a gram strength - 192? 251?

If I can get this to work I guess I'll try it on my next tolex project.

It's amazing the talent & know-how on this Forum!

EDIT: found a source that seems good - recomends 192 for veneer:  http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/library/animal_glues.pdf

192 is what we use. 

Read THIS, THIS, and maybe THIS.  THIS is kind of fun, too.


Gabriel

[jjasilli]

Good info, thanks again! I'm in the process of testing crockpots to use as a double boiler.  So far, I'm toying with the Goldilocks problem:  either too hot or too cold!

[jjasilli]

Bingo!  Our medium crockpot, with a medium setting is JUST RIGHT!  So now, another project in the works.